4 ms·

I am a huge believer in the power of free and open source software. But I always cringe when the FSF runs these kinds of campaigns. They exhibit an astonishing

by JunkDNA 13y ago

I am a huge believer in the power of free and open source software. But I always cringe when the FSF runs these kinds of campaigns. They exhibit an astonishing level of tone-deafness about the audience they are attempting to reach. IMO, the FSF really needs to make a better case to the average person who is never going to write a line of code or otherwise modify their software. Not saying that's easy and I sure don't know how to do it. But I am pretty sure telling people not to shop at Amazon or buy iTunes gift cards isn't it.

rglullis 13y ago
So, what kind of campaign do you think they should be doing? Granted, there are many other ideas (install fests, donate your old computer, etc) but these are already done, and they can't do that in front of the Apple Store. Also, these other ideas are all based on some compromise: "Sure, go ahead and spend 2 grand on a macbook pro for you kids going to college, but at least leave the breadcrumbs for us poor folk". As much as it can help, it brings no actual progress to the ideals of the FSF. It would be more of a feel-good campaign than anything else. If you want to promote Free Software, you need to have good alternatives to proprietary systems, but at the same time you need to fight against the mindshare that the giants have.
- danieldk 13y ago
  So, what kind of campaign do you think they should be doing? Why not stand outside an Apple store and hand out DVDs under the motto 'here, free software for your new Mac'? Put LibreOffice, VirtualBox, Adium, and whatnot on it. Insert a flyer explaining what 'free software' means and suggest that they can donate to these projects if they like the software. Sure, they will be running one OS X. But one step at a time is better than 99% thinking there were approached by nerd Hare Krishnas (nothing against Hinduism, it's about perception).
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    Besides the cost issue, would you install software from a DVD someone just handed you in the street?
  - marquis 13y ago
    A dvd is not a good idea, but I don't think people know about those options (LibreOffice etc), so even a nicely made flyer or postcard with very clear instructions may genuinely make a lot of people very very happy.
  - thoughtsimple 13y ago
    Few Macs are sold with DVD drives these days. I'm pretty sure the vast majority would share the fate of the old AOL CD.
    - diab0lic 13y ago
      You're definitely right here, I don't think the pro line does anymore and the air never has. Small USB sticks aren't much more expensive, however. Especially if you get something as tiny as 256MB and just have a network based installer tool for all the free software distributed.
  - sn0v 13y ago
    This is actually a pretty good idea, except for the fact that most new Macs don't come with DVD drives these days.
  - rglullis 13y ago
    That is certainly one possibility, but I have my doubts regarding the actual effectiveness in convince people to change their minds about their consumer habits. The thing is: the FSF is supposed to be "nerd Hare Krishnas". They don't - rather, they shouldn't - want to compromise. They are advocating Free Software. Not open source. Not consumer-friendly gadgets. Not "cool things that Apple can't do". They will preach that using anything Apple is wrong, and they are rightfully voicing their views.
  - mattl 13y ago
    I used to work at the FSF, and I wrote this: http://www.fsf.org/working-together/moving http://www.fsf.org/working-together/moving Admittedly, not on a disk, but a nice flyer or something for this would be good.
  - stefan_kendall 13y ago
    LibreOffice is one of the biggest pieces of trash I have ever used. You must be joking. I use it as a canonical example of unusable software.
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    "But if it's running on my Mac, I think I'll just use the iWork suite, and Messages - they are 'free' in the App Store"...
- lambda 13y ago
  I'm a Free Software Foundation member. I support their goals. But I would rather the money be put towards developing free software and hardware that is friendly to it than these kinds of campaigns. The reason that people go into the Apple Store rather than buying a fully free software system is that a MacBook Pro Retina is in an entirely different class than a Lemote Yeeloong (one of the few computers that is able to run free software end to end such that Richard Stallman is willing to run it). I think that working to provide effective free software alternatives, and partnering with hardware companies that supports that mission, would be far more effective than dressing up in a GNU suit outside the Apple store.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    The costs of doing this are much lower, and don't prohibit doing other stuff. If the cost of some paper and a black ink cartridge can get FSF.org on the HN front page for a few hours that might in itself be a net win.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - mratzloff 13y ago
      This campaign is targeting average consumers, not HN users who already are familiar with the issues.
- JunkDNA 13y ago
  As I said in my post, I don't really know what it should look like. But standing outside the Apple store telling people they just made a bad purchase decision is no way to win converts. This is like PETA standing outside a butcher shop telling customers buying Thanksgiving turkeys that meat is murder and offering tofurkey. People want to feel good about their purchase decisions so you already have a strong headwind you are working against. The problem is that people have specific things they want to do with those new iPhones and iPads. The FSF position is that you shouldn't buy one. There isn't really a middle ground here. If my situation is that my teenager yearns to play candy crush on a new iPod touch for Christmas, the FSF message is completely at odds with that and nothing you tell me outside the Apple store on a freezing cold day in Boston is going to move the needle.
johnw 13y ago
Absolutely agree, free software has so much to offer and yet here we see it being promoted using the most desperate and ineffective means possible: dressing up in costumes and handing out flyers to people - people who quite likely just had a positive buying experience at an Apple store which offered real products and solutions and not some half thought out nonsense on a piece of paper that only a few geeks are likely to understand. They need to find another way, because this isn't going to win over anyone, and it may lead some to believe that free software folk are desperate nutcases (which couldn't be further from the truth). There is just no thought or substance to this campaign at all.
chestnut-tree 13y ago
I completely agree that the FSF needs to make a better case. The PDF guide is simply too generic and vague - most non-technical users won't understand what it's saying. But I can fully understand how difficult it is to make a convincing case. How do you explain these issues in a simple, digestable format that takes a minute or less to read? And let's be honest, sometimes the open source version of a piece of software isn't superior to a closed source one (in terms of capability or UX). Perhaps the focus should be more on issues (such as privacy, for example) and questions to ask when using a program or service i.e. make people aware of the issues and the choices available to them? Give users information so they can make informed choices, but respect the fact that many will still go with closed source solutions. BTW, I wonder why ChromeOS isn't on their list given that ChromeBooks will probably be a popular purchase during the holiday season. And I actually think in terms of arguing for or against an OS, ChromeOS is probably the easiest to argue persuasively against. For example, you can tell people you can't print to your desktop printer without an internet connection and that every time you print (even to your desktop printer), Google records that action. Some people won't care, but others might not be happy with that. If you then go on to say that Google potentially [1] tracks and records your every action in the OS, you'll be raising awareness of important privacy issues. [1] I say potentially because Google doen't reveal what they track and record in ChromeOS and that in itself is a question people should ask themselves when they use ChromeOS i.e. is it important for me to know what Google records of my online behaviour? Until Google reveal what they track and record, should I refrain from using their OS?

by JunkDNA 13y ago

rglullis 13y ago

So, what kind of campaign do you think they should be doing? Granted, there are many other ideas (install fests, donate your old computer, etc) but these are already done, and they can't do that in front of the Apple Store. Also, these other ideas are all based on some compromise: "Sure, go ahead and spend 2 grand on a macbook pro for you kids going to college, but at least leave the breadcrumbs for us poor folk". As much as it can help, it brings no actual progress to the ideals of the FSF. It would be more of a feel-good campaign than anything else. If you want to promote Free Software, you need to have good alternatives to proprietary systems, but at the same time you need to fight against the mindshare that the giants have.

danieldk 13y ago
So, what kind of campaign do you think they should be doing? Why not stand outside an Apple store and hand out DVDs under the motto 'here, free software for your new Mac'? Put LibreOffice, VirtualBox, Adium, and whatnot on it. Insert a flyer explaining what 'free software' means and suggest that they can donate to these projects if they like the software. Sure, they will be running one OS X. But one step at a time is better than 99% thinking there were approached by nerd Hare Krishnas (nothing against Hinduism, it's about perception).
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  Besides the cost issue, would you install software from a DVD someone just handed you in the street?
- marquis 13y ago
  A dvd is not a good idea, but I don't think people know about those options (LibreOffice etc), so even a nicely made flyer or postcard with very clear instructions may genuinely make a lot of people very very happy.
- thoughtsimple 13y ago
  Few Macs are sold with DVD drives these days. I'm pretty sure the vast majority would share the fate of the old AOL CD.
  - diab0lic 13y ago
    You're definitely right here, I don't think the pro line does anymore and the air never has. Small USB sticks aren't much more expensive, however. Especially if you get something as tiny as 256MB and just have a network based installer tool for all the free software distributed.
- sn0v 13y ago
  This is actually a pretty good idea, except for the fact that most new Macs don't come with DVD drives these days.
- rglullis 13y ago
  That is certainly one possibility, but I have my doubts regarding the actual effectiveness in convince people to change their minds about their consumer habits. The thing is: the FSF is supposed to be "nerd Hare Krishnas". They don't - rather, they shouldn't - want to compromise. They are advocating Free Software. Not open source. Not consumer-friendly gadgets. Not "cool things that Apple can't do". They will preach that using anything Apple is wrong, and they are rightfully voicing their views.
- mattl 13y ago
  I used to work at the FSF, and I wrote this: http://www.fsf.org/working-together/moving http://www.fsf.org/working-together/moving Admittedly, not on a disk, but a nice flyer or something for this would be good.
- stefan_kendall 13y ago
  LibreOffice is one of the biggest pieces of trash I have ever used. You must be joking. I use it as a canonical example of unusable software.
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  "But if it's running on my Mac, I think I'll just use the iWork suite, and Messages - they are 'free' in the App Store"...
lambda 13y ago
I'm a Free Software Foundation member. I support their goals. But I would rather the money be put towards developing free software and hardware that is friendly to it than these kinds of campaigns. The reason that people go into the Apple Store rather than buying a fully free software system is that a MacBook Pro Retina is in an entirely different class than a Lemote Yeeloong (one of the few computers that is able to run free software end to end such that Richard Stallman is willing to run it). I think that working to provide effective free software alternatives, and partnering with hardware companies that supports that mission, would be far more effective than dressing up in a GNU suit outside the Apple store.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  The costs of doing this are much lower, and don't prohibit doing other stuff. If the cost of some paper and a black ink cartridge can get FSF.org on the HN front page for a few hours that might in itself be a net win.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - mratzloff 13y ago
    This campaign is targeting average consumers, not HN users who already are familiar with the issues.
JunkDNA 13y ago
As I said in my post, I don't really know what it should look like. But standing outside the Apple store telling people they just made a bad purchase decision is no way to win converts. This is like PETA standing outside a butcher shop telling customers buying Thanksgiving turkeys that meat is murder and offering tofurkey. People want to feel good about their purchase decisions so you already have a strong headwind you are working against. The problem is that people have specific things they want to do with those new iPhones and iPads. The FSF position is that you shouldn't buy one. There isn't really a middle ground here. If my situation is that my teenager yearns to play candy crush on a new iPod touch for Christmas, the FSF message is completely at odds with that and nothing you tell me outside the Apple store on a freezing cold day in Boston is going to move the needle.

johnw 13y ago

Absolutely agree, free software has so much to offer and yet here we see it being promoted using the most desperate and ineffective means possible: dressing up in costumes and handing out flyers to people - people who quite likely just had a positive buying experience at an Apple store which offered real products and solutions and not some half thought out nonsense on a piece of paper that only a few geeks are likely to understand. They need to find another way, because this isn't going to win over anyone, and it may lead some to believe that free software folk are desperate nutcases (which couldn't be further from the truth). There is just no thought or substance to this campaign at all.

chestnut-tree 13y ago

I completely agree that the FSF needs to make a better case. The PDF guide is simply too generic and vague - most non-technical users won't understand what it's saying. But I can fully understand how difficult it is to make a convincing case. How do you explain these issues in a simple, digestable format that takes a minute or less to read? And let's be honest, sometimes the open source version of a piece of software isn't superior to a closed source one (in terms of capability or UX). Perhaps the focus should be more on issues (such as privacy, for example) and questions to ask when using a program or service i.e. make people aware of the issues and the choices available to them? Give users information so they can make informed choices, but respect the fact that many will still go with closed source solutions. BTW, I wonder why ChromeOS isn't on their list given that ChromeBooks will probably be a popular purchase during the holiday season. And I actually think in terms of arguing for or against an OS, ChromeOS is probably the easiest to argue persuasively against. For example, you can tell people you can't print to your desktop printer without an internet connection and that every time you print (even to your desktop printer), Google records that action. Some people won't care, but others might not be happy with that. If you then go on to say that Google potentially [1] tracks and records your every action in the OS, you'll be raising awareness of important privacy issues. [1] I say potentially because Google doen't reveal what they track and record in ChromeOS and that in itself is a question people should ask themselves when they use ChromeOS i.e. is it important for me to know what Google records of my online behaviour? Until Google reveal what they track and record, should I refrain from using their OS?