6 ms·

Our holiday visit to the Apple store

40 points by lelf 13y ago

k-mcgrady 13y ago
Nice idea and a good way of introducing people to alternatives however I'd like to know what the people they met on the streets actually thought of the message - it's interesting they don't mention that. I'm guessing most don't care. Also, pushing your beliefs on someone else through a gift is pretty sneaky. If I asked someone for an iTunes Gift Card and they gave me an FSF Membership Card as the guide suggests I would be quite pissed off.[1] [1] https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/misc/GivingGuide2013.pdf https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/misc/GivingGuide2013.pdf
- greghinch 13y ago
  "Planned obsolescence"? I'm still using Macs from 2004 and 2008 just fine. They've certainly lasted longer than any PC I ever owned.
- bane 13y ago
  There's almost nothing worse than getting somebody else's fringe beliefs given to you as a gift. It's like the opposite of a gift. Imagine if this was extended beyond software into the physical world: - instead of a new sweater, we've given you a schedule of anti-globalism meetup events, bring a protest sign and a gas mask! - instead of a basket of summer sausages, we've given you tickets to a screening of the latest undercover livestock mistreatment movie screening! - instead of a new TV we donated to the local Tea Party organization! - instead of a new puppy, we've made a donation in your name to the Animal Liberation Front! - instead of tickets to Hawaii we decided to donate the money to a carbon offset program, here's the receipt! - instead of a new BB-gun, we got you an NRA membership!
jph 13y ago
Free software is a cornerstone of a free society -- we can donate here: https://crm.fsf.org/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=14&pk_campaign=2013ggaction&pk_kwd=donate https://crm.fsf.org/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=1...
ddoolin 13y ago
Just a hunch but I'm sure that was a magnitude more annoying than effective.
- RexRollman 13y ago
  Agreed. Most people just don't care about this stuff.
  - Argorak 13y ago
    Most people are also never exposed to this stuff. While a some readers here cringe at the FSF going on the streets and speaking to "most people" about this stuff, I highly appreciate it. Those FSF members got out of their echo chamber - it is not a fun job, some people won't care, but that is part of what makes this a good action.
    - zacinbusiness 13y ago
      I don't know. It seems more like a marketing stunt than a public service. They targeted Apple who champions a lot of free software. They could have targeted Microsoft. Or better yet LodSys.
      - justincormack 13y ago
        Not sure there is much difference between Apple and Microsoft in terms of free software now, they both contribute and use free software but still have a large proprietary core.
      - Argorak 13y ago
        Apple uses a lot of open source software, but tries to eliminate free (as in speech) software from its stack. Apple is also the champion of not allowing device owners to tinker with their devices. This doesn't make their involvement into open source any less and it is highly appreciated, but it also doesn't raise them above criticism. Also, LodSys and Microsoft have far less customers on the street. Especially LodSys.
theorique 13y ago
It's a difficult message to get across to people in the course of a street conversation. For your grandma who almost knows how to turn the computer on, and calls you to ask you "honey, did you erase the Google from my computer the last time you were here?", it's quite a strange, confusing, and possibly irritating interruption to Christmas shopping.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  Is it any more irritating than other charity organisations that patrol the streets around Christmas time, at least in this case the FSF volunteers are not salespeople on commission.
  - k-mcgrady 13y ago
    >> "Is it any more irritating than other charity organisations that patrol the streets around Christmas time" I would be much less irritated by a person working for a homeless charity approaching me that I would be a person from the FSF (especially considering most people won't have a clue what free software is).
    - jiggy2011 13y ago
      especially considering most people won't have a clue what free software is Would that not be the point of leafleting?
      - k-mcgrady 13y ago
        Yes, but my issue was with the comparison to charities. Sure it can be annoying to be approached constantly but when someone says they are from a homeless charity etc. you know what they mean and can quickly decide if you want to give them your time/money. If someone stops you and says they would like to discuss the FSF you probably won't have a clue what it is and it'll be more annoying as you can't easily make a decision without finding out more information.
zacinbusiness 13y ago
http://www.apple.com/opensource/ http://www.apple.com/opensource/
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- agravier 13y ago
  That page, or at least its title, is another slap in the face of Stallman.
  - zacinbusiness 13y ago
    Why? No one is forced to use a Mac or a PC. And anyone can learn how to install *ix on their hardware if they choose to.
    - ForHackernews 13y ago
      Because "open source" is not the same thing as "free software": https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....
- jorgecastillo 13y ago
  I like this link better. http://opensource.apple.com/ http://opensource.apple.com/
JunkDNA 13y ago
I am a huge believer in the power of free and open source software. But I always cringe when the FSF runs these kinds of campaigns. They exhibit an astonishing level of tone-deafness about the audience they are attempting to reach. IMO, the FSF really needs to make a better case to the average person who is never going to write a line of code or otherwise modify their software. Not saying that's easy and I sure don't know how to do it. But I am pretty sure telling people not to shop at Amazon or buy iTunes gift cards isn't it.
- rglullis 13y ago
  So, what kind of campaign do you think they should be doing? Granted, there are many other ideas (install fests, donate your old computer, etc) but these are already done, and they can't do that in front of the Apple Store. Also, these other ideas are all based on some compromise: "Sure, go ahead and spend 2 grand on a macbook pro for you kids going to college, but at least leave the breadcrumbs for us poor folk". As much as it can help, it brings no actual progress to the ideals of the FSF. It would be more of a feel-good campaign than anything else. If you want to promote Free Software, you need to have good alternatives to proprietary systems, but at the same time you need to fight against the mindshare that the giants have.
  - danieldk 13y ago
    So, what kind of campaign do you think they should be doing? Why not stand outside an Apple store and hand out DVDs under the motto 'here, free software for your new Mac'? Put LibreOffice, VirtualBox, Adium, and whatnot on it. Insert a flyer explaining what 'free software' means and suggest that they can donate to these projects if they like the software. Sure, they will be running one OS X. But one step at a time is better than 99% thinking there were approached by nerd Hare Krishnas (nothing against Hinduism, it's about perception).
    - jiggy2011 13y ago
      Besides the cost issue, would you install software from a DVD someone just handed you in the street?
emperorcezar 13y ago
You'd think the FSF could come up with a better "gift guide".
zacinbusiness 13y ago
Also for the low low price of ~$900 you can get a laptop that weighs FIVE POUNDS. I'm sold.
eknkc 13y ago
Let's fund an organization that calls people randomly to talk about software licenses and teach them the virtues of free software. Do it a couple times per week for each phone number. At night and morning and over and over... That will work as good as this one.
bane 13y ago
> to get people thinking about the injustices of proprietary software-laden gifts Apparently written by the same people who smash Google buses in Oakland. Or at least using the same style guide.
aurelius 13y ago
That's funny. One of the reasons I buy Apple products is because I want to get away from the FSF and GNU. Now that I have a job and earn good money, I'd rather pay for Apple Care and have Apple fix my broken computer while I do something more worthwhile with my time than sitting in the basement trying to debug "Free Software".
- rglullis 13y ago
  Good for you. Now what about the other 90% of the population who can't afford it? It's okay if you don't want to pay with your time anymore. But perhaps it would be also nice to contribute to an ideal alternative?
  - aurelius 13y ago
    What about them? Should we all go stand outside a Lexus dealership for the 90% of the population that can't afford a luxury car? Since when did access to computer software become a basic human right? This kind of fanatical ideology around software disgusts me. How is it any more acceptable than religious fanaticism?
    - rglullis 13y ago
      Easy, boy. I am not saying that everyone should be getting macs. I am just opposing this short-sighted mentality of "I am free to buy whatever I want, therefore I am free". This is not real freedom, that's all.
    - rglullis 13y ago
      Easy, boy. I am not saying that everyone should be getting macs. I am just opposing this short-sighted mentality of "I am free to buy whatever I want, therefore I am free". This is not real freedom, that's all.
- ajross 13y ago
  This had to be one of the most depressingly naive perspectives on OSS I've seen on this site. It's really just an issue of trading money for convenience for you? Even granting that you're analysis is 100% correct, it's morally suspect. Your saying that now you've got yours, to hell with all the people who can't afford it or don't have access. Really, you need to think this through a little more carefully. This is just embarrassing.
AnotherDesigner 13y ago
The guide, as well as this stunt, is laughable. The comparisons aren't even close to being the same value. And I wonder if Apple could sue the FSF for outright lying: nothing about the Macbook Pro is planned obsolescence. You can use it until the parts wear out. For me, my HDD died and it had been about 7 years so I decided to buy a faster model instead of replacing the HDD but it worked the same up until the end.
- diab0lic 13y ago
  I'm sure they could at the very least attempt litigation for outright lying. Maybe false advertising? -- I suppose not since the FSF isn't selling anything in the traditional sense of the word. In any case that would be a PR nightmare for Apple. Goliath picking on David. If the lawsuit didn't financially destroy the FSF, and I doubt it would as many would step up to help fund it, it could possibly mean a ton of free PR/awareness/advertising/whatever for the FSF. I think a lawsuit is lose/lose for Apple here, considering this "stunt" was ineffective at best.
plg 13y ago
I love the idea of FSF and of free software. I'm a scientist and in my circles in particular, I can see the virtues of free software, open source, open access, etc. I think though that for most people, they don't care about an issue like this unless it causes them a problem, for example it prevents them from doing something that they want to do. So for example if they couldn't play Katy Perry on their iPhones/iPods because somehow Apple was a closed system and Katy Perry wasn't licensed. If Katy Perry could be played legally, openly, freely, on a non-Apple equivalent (key word here is equivalent) music player, then of COURSE people would flock to the free, open device. The unfortunate fact is however that we have the opposite situation, where for many free/open software/hardware options, the perception (if not the reality) is that the free/open options are in fact not as "nice"/convenient/easy/glittery/appealing to use as the for pay, closed systems. The perception (if not the reality) is that the free/open options are lower in quality (quality of experience, if not quality of device/app itself) than the options being touted as evil. The only way to change this situation is to change the perception, and/or change the reality. The big companies like Apple have enormous amounts of money, talent, and will, to dedicate towards marketing (influencing perception). Same goes for the devices/apps themselves. If you can show people something that they can do easier, better, cheaper, using free/open options than with Apple options, then they will (naturally) move there. What are some examples?
- plg 13y ago
  are there examples in the non-software/electronics realms where free/open/non-restrictive options have been more widely (or even equally) adopted than closed options?
  - spiralpolitik 13y ago
    Compact Disc verses Mini Disc and that digital cassette format (DCC I think it was) based on DAT comes to mind. Granted Compact Disc was established by the time the other two came along, but they did have advantages verses CD (smaller and recordable for a start). SDCard verses Memory Stick would also be another example.
deviltry 13y ago
Obnoxious.
mratzloff 13y ago
This is just a waste of time for all involved. If the FSF wants to advance free software, they should use donations to pay professional UX and graphic designers to improve the look and feel of those projects that need it. Making free software better advances the cause of free software more than this ever will.

40 points by lelf 13y ago

Nice idea and a good way of introducing people to alternatives however I'd like to know what the people they met on the streets actually thought of the message - it's interesting they don't mention that. I'm guessing most don't care. Also, pushing your beliefs on someone else through a gift is pretty sneaky. If I asked someone for an iTunes Gift Card and they gave me an FSF Membership Card as the guide suggests I would be quite pissed off.[1] [1] https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/misc/GivingGuide2013.pdf https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/misc/GivingGuide2013.pdf

greghinch 13y ago
"Planned obsolescence"? I'm still using Macs from 2004 and 2008 just fine. They've certainly lasted longer than any PC I ever owned.
bane 13y ago
There's almost nothing worse than getting somebody else's fringe beliefs given to you as a gift. It's like the opposite of a gift. Imagine if this was extended beyond software into the physical world: - instead of a new sweater, we've given you a schedule of anti-globalism meetup events, bring a protest sign and a gas mask! - instead of a basket of summer sausages, we've given you tickets to a screening of the latest undercover livestock mistreatment movie screening! - instead of a new TV we donated to the local Tea Party organization! - instead of a new puppy, we've made a donation in your name to the Animal Liberation Front! - instead of tickets to Hawaii we decided to donate the money to a carbon offset program, here's the receipt! - instead of a new BB-gun, we got you an NRA membership!

jph 13y ago

Free software is a cornerstone of a free society -- we can donate here: https://crm.fsf.org/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=14&pk_campaign=2013ggaction&pk_kwd=donate https://crm.fsf.org/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=1...

ddoolin 13y ago

Just a hunch but I'm sure that was a magnitude more annoying than effective.

RexRollman 13y ago
Agreed. Most people just don't care about this stuff.
- Argorak 13y ago
  Most people are also never exposed to this stuff. While a some readers here cringe at the FSF going on the streets and speaking to "most people" about this stuff, I highly appreciate it. Those FSF members got out of their echo chamber - it is not a fun job, some people won't care, but that is part of what makes this a good action.
  - zacinbusiness 13y ago
    I don't know. It seems more like a marketing stunt than a public service. They targeted Apple who champions a lot of free software. They could have targeted Microsoft. Or better yet LodSys.
    - justincormack 13y ago
      Not sure there is much difference between Apple and Microsoft in terms of free software now, they both contribute and use free software but still have a large proprietary core.
    - Argorak 13y ago
      Apple uses a lot of open source software, but tries to eliminate free (as in speech) software from its stack. Apple is also the champion of not allowing device owners to tinker with their devices. This doesn't make their involvement into open source any less and it is highly appreciated, but it also doesn't raise them above criticism. Also, LodSys and Microsoft have far less customers on the street. Especially LodSys.

theorique 13y ago

It's a difficult message to get across to people in the course of a street conversation. For your grandma who almost knows how to turn the computer on, and calls you to ask you "honey, did you erase the Google from my computer the last time you were here?", it's quite a strange, confusing, and possibly irritating interruption to Christmas shopping.

jiggy2011 13y ago
Is it any more irritating than other charity organisations that patrol the streets around Christmas time, at least in this case the FSF volunteers are not salespeople on commission.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  >> "Is it any more irritating than other charity organisations that patrol the streets around Christmas time" I would be much less irritated by a person working for a homeless charity approaching me that I would be a person from the FSF (especially considering most people won't have a clue what free software is).
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    especially considering most people won't have a clue what free software is Would that not be the point of leafleting?
    - k-mcgrady 13y ago
      Yes, but my issue was with the comparison to charities. Sure it can be annoying to be approached constantly but when someone says they are from a homeless charity etc. you know what they mean and can quickly decide if you want to give them your time/money. If someone stops you and says they would like to discuss the FSF you probably won't have a clue what it is and it'll be more annoying as you can't easily make a decision without finding out more information.

zacinbusiness 13y ago

http://www.apple.com/opensource/ http://www.apple.com/opensource/

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
agravier 13y ago
That page, or at least its title, is another slap in the face of Stallman.
- zacinbusiness 13y ago
  Why? No one is forced to use a Mac or a PC. And anyone can learn how to install *ix on their hardware if they choose to.
  - ForHackernews 13y ago
    Because "open source" is not the same thing as "free software": https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....
jorgecastillo 13y ago
I like this link better. http://opensource.apple.com/ http://opensource.apple.com/

JunkDNA 13y ago

I am a huge believer in the power of free and open source software. But I always cringe when the FSF runs these kinds of campaigns. They exhibit an astonishing level of tone-deafness about the audience they are attempting to reach. IMO, the FSF really needs to make a better case to the average person who is never going to write a line of code or otherwise modify their software. Not saying that's easy and I sure don't know how to do it. But I am pretty sure telling people not to shop at Amazon or buy iTunes gift cards isn't it.

rglullis 13y ago
So, what kind of campaign do you think they should be doing? Granted, there are many other ideas (install fests, donate your old computer, etc) but these are already done, and they can't do that in front of the Apple Store. Also, these other ideas are all based on some compromise: "Sure, go ahead and spend 2 grand on a macbook pro for you kids going to college, but at least leave the breadcrumbs for us poor folk". As much as it can help, it brings no actual progress to the ideals of the FSF. It would be more of a feel-good campaign than anything else. If you want to promote Free Software, you need to have good alternatives to proprietary systems, but at the same time you need to fight against the mindshare that the giants have.
- danieldk 13y ago
  So, what kind of campaign do you think they should be doing? Why not stand outside an Apple store and hand out DVDs under the motto 'here, free software for your new Mac'? Put LibreOffice, VirtualBox, Adium, and whatnot on it. Insert a flyer explaining what 'free software' means and suggest that they can donate to these projects if they like the software. Sure, they will be running one OS X. But one step at a time is better than 99% thinking there were approached by nerd Hare Krishnas (nothing against Hinduism, it's about perception).
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    Besides the cost issue, would you install software from a DVD someone just handed you in the street?

emperorcezar 13y ago

You'd think the FSF could come up with a better "gift guide".

zacinbusiness 13y ago

Also for the low low price of ~$900 you can get a laptop that weighs FIVE POUNDS. I'm sold.

eknkc 13y ago

Let's fund an organization that calls people randomly to talk about software licenses and teach them the virtues of free software. Do it a couple times per week for each phone number. At night and morning and over and over... That will work as good as this one.

bane 13y ago

> to get people thinking about the injustices of proprietary software-laden gifts Apparently written by the same people who smash Google buses in Oakland. Or at least using the same style guide.

aurelius 13y ago

That's funny. One of the reasons I buy Apple products is because I want to get away from the FSF and GNU. Now that I have a job and earn good money, I'd rather pay for Apple Care and have Apple fix my broken computer while I do something more worthwhile with my time than sitting in the basement trying to debug "Free Software".

rglullis 13y ago
Good for you. Now what about the other 90% of the population who can't afford it? It's okay if you don't want to pay with your time anymore. But perhaps it would be also nice to contribute to an ideal alternative?
- aurelius 13y ago
  What about them? Should we all go stand outside a Lexus dealership for the 90% of the population that can't afford a luxury car? Since when did access to computer software become a basic human right? This kind of fanatical ideology around software disgusts me. How is it any more acceptable than religious fanaticism?
  - rglullis 13y ago
    Easy, boy. I am not saying that everyone should be getting macs. I am just opposing this short-sighted mentality of "I am free to buy whatever I want, therefore I am free". This is not real freedom, that's all.
  - rglullis 13y ago
    Easy, boy. I am not saying that everyone should be getting macs. I am just opposing this short-sighted mentality of "I am free to buy whatever I want, therefore I am free". This is not real freedom, that's all.
ajross 13y ago
This had to be one of the most depressingly naive perspectives on OSS I've seen on this site. It's really just an issue of trading money for convenience for you? Even granting that you're analysis is 100% correct, it's morally suspect. Your saying that now you've got yours, to hell with all the people who can't afford it or don't have access. Really, you need to think this through a little more carefully. This is just embarrassing.

AnotherDesigner 13y ago

The guide, as well as this stunt, is laughable. The comparisons aren't even close to being the same value. And I wonder if Apple could sue the FSF for outright lying: nothing about the Macbook Pro is planned obsolescence. You can use it until the parts wear out. For me, my HDD died and it had been about 7 years so I decided to buy a faster model instead of replacing the HDD but it worked the same up until the end.

diab0lic 13y ago
I'm sure they could at the very least attempt litigation for outright lying. Maybe false advertising? -- I suppose not since the FSF isn't selling anything in the traditional sense of the word. In any case that would be a PR nightmare for Apple. Goliath picking on David. If the lawsuit didn't financially destroy the FSF, and I doubt it would as many would step up to help fund it, it could possibly mean a ton of free PR/awareness/advertising/whatever for the FSF. I think a lawsuit is lose/lose for Apple here, considering this "stunt" was ineffective at best.

plg 13y ago

I love the idea of FSF and of free software. I'm a scientist and in my circles in particular, I can see the virtues of free software, open source, open access, etc. I think though that for most people, they don't care about an issue like this unless it causes them a problem, for example it prevents them from doing something that they want to do. So for example if they couldn't play Katy Perry on their iPhones/iPods because somehow Apple was a closed system and Katy Perry wasn't licensed. If Katy Perry could be played legally, openly, freely, on a non-Apple equivalent (key word here is equivalent) music player, then of COURSE people would flock to the free, open device. The unfortunate fact is however that we have the opposite situation, where for many free/open software/hardware options, the perception (if not the reality) is that the free/open options are in fact not as "nice"/convenient/easy/glittery/appealing to use as the for pay, closed systems. The perception (if not the reality) is that the free/open options are lower in quality (quality of experience, if not quality of device/app itself) than the options being touted as evil. The only way to change this situation is to change the perception, and/or change the reality. The big companies like Apple have enormous amounts of money, talent, and will, to dedicate towards marketing (influencing perception). Same goes for the devices/apps themselves. If you can show people something that they can do easier, better, cheaper, using free/open options than with Apple options, then they will (naturally) move there. What are some examples?

plg 13y ago
are there examples in the non-software/electronics realms where free/open/non-restrictive options have been more widely (or even equally) adopted than closed options?
- spiralpolitik 13y ago
  Compact Disc verses Mini Disc and that digital cassette format (DCC I think it was) based on DAT comes to mind. Granted Compact Disc was established by the time the other two came along, but they did have advantages verses CD (smaller and recordable for a start). SDCard verses Memory Stick would also be another example.

deviltry 13y ago

Obnoxious.

mratzloff 13y ago

This is just a waste of time for all involved. If the FSF wants to advance free software, they should use donations to pay professional UX and graphic designers to improve the look and feel of those projects that need it. Making free software better advances the cause of free software more than this ever will.