7 ms·

> the elitist attitudes really need to stop I hope everyone of these protesters standing in the way of the bus gets arrested (as opposed to protestors standing

> the elitist attitudes really need to stop I hope everyone of these protesters standing in the way of the bus gets arrested (as opposed to protestors standing aside - no problems with them). It's not elitist to want people to be civil. It's not elitist to want to go to work. There's no solution to gentrification. Not a single one. There's nothing to be done about private entities buying private property at a price that the buyer and seller agree on. The next door neighbor has no say whatsoever over the process unless there's a pre-existing homeowner's association. If you aren't happy with it, tough luck. Annoying people isn't going to help anyone. Because there's absolutely nothing that can be done, short of a constitutional amendment that would never see the light of day.

tedivm 13y ago
If you're going to talk about following the law, how about the fact that the bus is illegally parked in a public bus stop? That's why these guys are protesting, because the individuals in the city have one set of laws they're supposed to follow while the tech companies are apparently immune. Seriously, read what these people are saying. They've complained about the fact that Muni buses are dumping people into the middle of the road because these tech buses are literally parking themselves in the muni bus stops to pick people up. If any other citizen did this it would be a $271 fine, but for some reason having a tech company behind you means you're above the law. The two tiered system- the economic apartheid- is the real issue here.
- belluchan 13y ago
  > If you're going to talk about following the law, how about the fact that the bus is illegally parked in a public bus stop? Well that's a perfectly OK thing to protest, but I'm not sure it's illegal though. Have you called the city and asked? I bet they have permission. Illegal means violating the law, are they violating the law or you just unhappy about the arrangement. I can see a valid argument being made about it not being a good thing, but I doubt it's illegal. If it is illegal just call the police? What do they say?
  - yapcguy 13y ago
    Yes it's illegal. The city has turned a blind eye to the problem, but now it's gotten too big, with buses stopping everywhere. The city says there may be a trial next year with designated bus stops being used by these private buses for cash, but until then, the law is being flouted. If you got a car or van and started transporting people across the city using the public bus stops, sooner or later, you would be fined and probably arrested too.
    - mc32 13y ago
      So affected cities have a few choices: fine every delivery vehicle and bus which parks 'illegally or illegally uses municipal bus stops. Modify code to allow stop sharing. Disallow non municipal buses from using municipal bus stops. Allow them to use side street. Or, if they mean to disallow private buses altogether, prepare for an increase in traffic and commute times. Interestingly, I don't recall protesters protesting the delivery vehicles who constantly block traffic lanes all over SF. That gives me pause and think the protesters' 'narrative' is questionable.
  - tedivm 13y ago
    They don't have permission, and the cops haven't done anything. Again, that's the main point of the main protest. They don't have permission- again, something that's been brought up at the protests, and is on the signs themselves. Yes, they are actually violating the law. Maybe you should like, educate yourself on the issues because picking a side? That way you can actually be informed, instead of spouting reactions that really don't make sense in the context.
    - Permit 13y ago
      So if they move their buses to a legal area for pickup, will you be satisfied? Or is that not the real issue here?
    - yaroslavvb 13y ago
      In SF they have permission yet people still protest. Some shuttle stops even have signs which look like they've been installed by the city, ie "No Parking/Shuttle Stop 6am-10am" on Van Ness
- bbwharris 13y ago
  Economic apartheid... Not sure how to digest that one. That's a tad hyperbolic. The article clearly states that the tech companies pay the city for the right to use the bus stops. Elected officials made a decision to sell public bus stops to publicly traded corporations.
  - tedivm 13y ago
    > The article clearly states that the tech companies pay the city for the right to use the bus stops. Elected officials made a decision to sell public bus stops to publicly traded corporations. What you are saying is factually incorrect. They are not paying anything at the moment. They are in talks to start paying next year, but the reasons those talks happened is because people started protesting this.
    - lwan 13y ago
      I see talks of facts and no substantiation.
  - kro0ub 13y ago
    The ability to buy out public infrastructure inherently amounts to plutocracy, which is unacceptable.
    - bbwharris 13y ago
      You have 1 vote. Make it count.
- mortehu 13y ago
  > for some reason having a tech company behind you means you're above the law. Which tech company is behind Academy of Art[1] and UCSF[2]? When I lived in San Francisco half a year ago, I saw far more of these than the tech company shuttles. 1. http://www.academyart.edu/news/articles/transportation-system-green.html http://www.academyart.edu/news/articles/transportation-syste... 2. http://campuslifeservices.ucsf.edu/transportation/services/shuttles http://campuslifeservices.ucsf.edu/transportation/services/s...
  - timr 13y ago
    Academy of Art and UCSF shuttles have their own stops, usually fronting the massive amount of real estate that they own. I've never seen one idling at a muni stop.
    - mortehu 13y ago
      > I've never seen one idling at a muni stop. Here you go: http://www.sfbg.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/Full_325_wide/4629-news_shuttles.jpg http://www.sfbg.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/Full_325_...
- FiloSottile 13y ago
  Ah, ok, so it is not about the rent prices?
- magicalist 13y ago
  > If you're going to talk about following the law, how about the fact that the bus is illegally parked in a public bus stop? That's why these guys are protesting, because the individuals in the city have one set of laws they're supposed to follow while the tech companies are apparently immune. and from below: > Again, that's the main point of the main protest This is just dishonest. When the organizing groups say they're going to have another protest in january and keep protesting until the Ellis Act is repealed, it's silly in the extreme to suggest that the "main point" has anything to do with using MUNI stops without permission. And that of course has nothing to do with the protest in Oakland (where the window was smashed), but I notice you put in "the main protest" there, so I assume you're referring to the one in the Mission. Gentrification is a very real issue and constantly being brought up in these protests. When signs read "TECHIES: Your World Is Not Welcome Here" and that fake Google employee is saying "This is a city for the right people who can afford it", no, bus parking is an outlet for ire and certainly not "the main point".
- mc32 13y ago
  Are the same people protesting the Megabuses and Bolt buses when they 'illegally' use the same bus stops as municipal buses? Otherwise this does look like it's targeted. I'd support the buses loading unloading on side streets, but still, imagine all the cars which would have to be on the road to replace the buses, if they were made illegal. Having buses bus people is actually a good thing. What I think bothers some of the protesters is that the careers they chose aren't as remunerating as those chosen by 'techies'. I know artists who resent the fact the the average person does not value 'Art' as much as they value low brow entertainment. They feel at a loss and upset at the fact they have to 'sell out' doing advertising gigs to make money --that doing 'Art' is not profitable and that the government should subsidize it more because "they know it's good and it's an intangible part of a good society, etc." Much of that may be true, but the reality is most people (the proletarians and the vilified middled classes) don't have an appreciation for 'Art' and ironically it's the wealthy who 'get' 'Art'.
  - mempko 13y ago
    Why don't they take Muni?
    - mc32 13y ago
      MUNI routes are not optimized for all people and some people work in a different municipality, etc. Academy of Art College, UCSF, etc. all have private buses and shuttles to address that shortcoming. I can almost hear the outcry that 'techies' are overcrowding our buses!
      - yapcguy 13y ago
        Have you seen the size of the UCSF shuttle buses? They are tiny compared to the tourist coach sized google buses. Also they don't just take UCSF staff and students, they also take patients. Googlers can take the Caltrain to Mountainview and hop on the free shuttle buses which drop them off at their campus. Why don't they do that? Or since Google has an office in San Francisco here's a better idea - let people who live in San Francisco work from that office, and people who live outside work at Mountainview.
- tptacek 13y ago
  Even the Oakland Police Department won't break the windows of your vehicle in retribution for parking it illegally.
  - kro0ub 13y ago
    Way to totally miss the point, though. Trampling on the ostensible-if-fictitious rule of law is outrageous, and accordingly instills outrage, which is often manifested in such ways as breaking windows of vehicles.
- glenra 13y ago
  > If you're going to talk about following the law, how about the fact that the bus is illegally parked in a public bus stop? A vehicle temporarily pausing to pick up or discharge passengers is not usually regarded as "parked". A car is unambiguously "parked" when it stops and the driver leaves. If the driver is still present and you want to charge him with something, it's more likely some sort of moving violation would apply. "obstructing traffic", perhaps?
jackmaney 13y ago
s/arrested/arrested and thrown in jail/
- 31reasons 13y ago
  Yes jail is an awesome solution!
  - jackmaney 13y ago
    Absolutely!
31reasons 13y ago
>I hope everyone of these protesters standing in the way of the bus gets arrested Technically there is something called "civil disobedience" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience) and I think this guy kinda made it famous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi
- terminus 13y ago
  And, he expected to be, and was arrested for it plenty of times.
  - 31reasons 13y ago
    Yes thats true.
- jackmaney 13y ago
  And exactly how many windows did Ghandi break?
  - 31reasons 13y ago
    >everyone of these protesters standing in the way of the bus
    - jackmaney 13y ago
      And at least one of the protesters broke a window on the bus. Again: how many windows did Ghandi break?
mempko 13y ago
I got a solution. No more private property and money. Done.
- belluchan 13y ago
  Nay, not possible, this just means that all property belongs to those with political power.
kro0ub 13y ago
> not elitist to want to go to work. To the employed elite, I can see why it would seem that way. Of course elite isn't a precisely appropriate term, but relatively speaking, it is an elitist stance. > not elitist to want people to be civil. Actually, yes, it is, and quite so. Try being "civil" when you're homeless or struggling to fill your stomach. Seriously, just try it.

tedivm 13y ago

If you're going to talk about following the law, how about the fact that the bus is illegally parked in a public bus stop? That's why these guys are protesting, because the individuals in the city have one set of laws they're supposed to follow while the tech companies are apparently immune. Seriously, read what these people are saying. They've complained about the fact that Muni buses are dumping people into the middle of the road because these tech buses are literally parking themselves in the muni bus stops to pick people up. If any other citizen did this it would be a $271 fine, but for some reason having a tech company behind you means you're above the law. The two tiered system- the economic apartheid- is the real issue here.

belluchan 13y ago
> If you're going to talk about following the law, how about the fact that the bus is illegally parked in a public bus stop? Well that's a perfectly OK thing to protest, but I'm not sure it's illegal though. Have you called the city and asked? I bet they have permission. Illegal means violating the law, are they violating the law or you just unhappy about the arrangement. I can see a valid argument being made about it not being a good thing, but I doubt it's illegal. If it is illegal just call the police? What do they say?
- yapcguy 13y ago
  Yes it's illegal. The city has turned a blind eye to the problem, but now it's gotten too big, with buses stopping everywhere. The city says there may be a trial next year with designated bus stops being used by these private buses for cash, but until then, the law is being flouted. If you got a car or van and started transporting people across the city using the public bus stops, sooner or later, you would be fined and probably arrested too.
  - mc32 13y ago
    So affected cities have a few choices: fine every delivery vehicle and bus which parks 'illegally or illegally uses municipal bus stops. Modify code to allow stop sharing. Disallow non municipal buses from using municipal bus stops. Allow them to use side street. Or, if they mean to disallow private buses altogether, prepare for an increase in traffic and commute times. Interestingly, I don't recall protesters protesting the delivery vehicles who constantly block traffic lanes all over SF. That gives me pause and think the protesters' 'narrative' is questionable.
- tedivm 13y ago
  They don't have permission, and the cops haven't done anything. Again, that's the main point of the main protest. They don't have permission- again, something that's been brought up at the protests, and is on the signs themselves. Yes, they are actually violating the law. Maybe you should like, educate yourself on the issues because picking a side? That way you can actually be informed, instead of spouting reactions that really don't make sense in the context.
  - Permit 13y ago
    So if they move their buses to a legal area for pickup, will you be satisfied? Or is that not the real issue here?
  - yaroslavvb 13y ago
    In SF they have permission yet people still protest. Some shuttle stops even have signs which look like they've been installed by the city, ie "No Parking/Shuttle Stop 6am-10am" on Van Ness
bbwharris 13y ago
Economic apartheid... Not sure how to digest that one. That's a tad hyperbolic. The article clearly states that the tech companies pay the city for the right to use the bus stops. Elected officials made a decision to sell public bus stops to publicly traded corporations.
- tedivm 13y ago
  > The article clearly states that the tech companies pay the city for the right to use the bus stops. Elected officials made a decision to sell public bus stops to publicly traded corporations. What you are saying is factually incorrect. They are not paying anything at the moment. They are in talks to start paying next year, but the reasons those talks happened is because people started protesting this.
  - lwan 13y ago
    I see talks of facts and no substantiation.
- kro0ub 13y ago
  The ability to buy out public infrastructure inherently amounts to plutocracy, which is unacceptable.
  - bbwharris 13y ago
    You have 1 vote. Make it count.
mortehu 13y ago
> for some reason having a tech company behind you means you're above the law. Which tech company is behind Academy of Art[1] and UCSF[2]? When I lived in San Francisco half a year ago, I saw far more of these than the tech company shuttles. 1. http://www.academyart.edu/news/articles/transportation-system-green.html http://www.academyart.edu/news/articles/transportation-syste... 2. http://campuslifeservices.ucsf.edu/transportation/services/shuttles http://campuslifeservices.ucsf.edu/transportation/services/s...
- timr 13y ago
  Academy of Art and UCSF shuttles have their own stops, usually fronting the massive amount of real estate that they own. I've never seen one idling at a muni stop.
  - mortehu 13y ago
    > I've never seen one idling at a muni stop. Here you go: http://www.sfbg.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/Full_325_wide/4629-news_shuttles.jpg http://www.sfbg.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/Full_325_...
FiloSottile 13y ago
Ah, ok, so it is not about the rent prices?
magicalist 13y ago
> If you're going to talk about following the law, how about the fact that the bus is illegally parked in a public bus stop? That's why these guys are protesting, because the individuals in the city have one set of laws they're supposed to follow while the tech companies are apparently immune. and from below: > Again, that's the main point of the main protest This is just dishonest. When the organizing groups say they're going to have another protest in january and keep protesting until the Ellis Act is repealed, it's silly in the extreme to suggest that the "main point" has anything to do with using MUNI stops without permission. And that of course has nothing to do with the protest in Oakland (where the window was smashed), but I notice you put in "the main protest" there, so I assume you're referring to the one in the Mission. Gentrification is a very real issue and constantly being brought up in these protests. When signs read "TECHIES: Your World Is Not Welcome Here" and that fake Google employee is saying "This is a city for the right people who can afford it", no, bus parking is an outlet for ire and certainly not "the main point".
mc32 13y ago
Are the same people protesting the Megabuses and Bolt buses when they 'illegally' use the same bus stops as municipal buses? Otherwise this does look like it's targeted. I'd support the buses loading unloading on side streets, but still, imagine all the cars which would have to be on the road to replace the buses, if they were made illegal. Having buses bus people is actually a good thing. What I think bothers some of the protesters is that the careers they chose aren't as remunerating as those chosen by 'techies'. I know artists who resent the fact the the average person does not value 'Art' as much as they value low brow entertainment. They feel at a loss and upset at the fact they have to 'sell out' doing advertising gigs to make money --that doing 'Art' is not profitable and that the government should subsidize it more because "they know it's good and it's an intangible part of a good society, etc." Much of that may be true, but the reality is most people (the proletarians and the vilified middled classes) don't have an appreciation for 'Art' and ironically it's the wealthy who 'get' 'Art'.
- mempko 13y ago
  Why don't they take Muni?
  - mc32 13y ago
    MUNI routes are not optimized for all people and some people work in a different municipality, etc. Academy of Art College, UCSF, etc. all have private buses and shuttles to address that shortcoming. I can almost hear the outcry that 'techies' are overcrowding our buses!
    - yapcguy 13y ago
      Have you seen the size of the UCSF shuttle buses? They are tiny compared to the tourist coach sized google buses. Also they don't just take UCSF staff and students, they also take patients. Googlers can take the Caltrain to Mountainview and hop on the free shuttle buses which drop them off at their campus. Why don't they do that? Or since Google has an office in San Francisco here's a better idea - let people who live in San Francisco work from that office, and people who live outside work at Mountainview.
tptacek 13y ago
Even the Oakland Police Department won't break the windows of your vehicle in retribution for parking it illegally.
- kro0ub 13y ago
  Way to totally miss the point, though. Trampling on the ostensible-if-fictitious rule of law is outrageous, and accordingly instills outrage, which is often manifested in such ways as breaking windows of vehicles.
glenra 13y ago
> If you're going to talk about following the law, how about the fact that the bus is illegally parked in a public bus stop? A vehicle temporarily pausing to pick up or discharge passengers is not usually regarded as "parked". A car is unambiguously "parked" when it stops and the driver leaves. If the driver is still present and you want to charge him with something, it's more likely some sort of moving violation would apply. "obstructing traffic", perhaps?

jackmaney 13y ago

s/arrested/arrested and thrown in jail/

31reasons 13y ago
Yes jail is an awesome solution!
- jackmaney 13y ago
  Absolutely!

31reasons 13y ago

>I hope everyone of these protesters standing in the way of the bus gets arrested Technically there is something called "civil disobedience" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience) and I think this guy kinda made it famous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi

terminus 13y ago
And, he expected to be, and was arrested for it plenty of times.
- 31reasons 13y ago
  Yes thats true.
jackmaney 13y ago
And exactly how many windows did Ghandi break?
- 31reasons 13y ago
  >everyone of these protesters standing in the way of the bus
  - jackmaney 13y ago
    And at least one of the protesters broke a window on the bus. Again: how many windows did Ghandi break?

mempko 13y ago

I got a solution. No more private property and money. Done.

belluchan 13y ago
Nay, not possible, this just means that all property belongs to those with political power.

kro0ub 13y ago

> not elitist to want to go to work. To the employed elite, I can see why it would seem that way. Of course elite isn't a precisely appropriate term, but relatively speaking, it is an elitist stance. > not elitist to want people to be civil. Actually, yes, it is, and quite so. Try being "civil" when you're homeless or struggling to fill your stomach. Seriously, just try it.