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Canada's top court has overturned all restrictions on prostitution
- draugadrotten 13y agoSex workers may not have another choice, but the clients do.
- collyw 13y agoI am quite sure there are clients that don't have any other choice for sex.
- colmvp 13y agoIndeed. Let's not pretend everyone has it equal.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 13y agoI wonder what the PUAhate forums are thinking about this, but like fuck I'm gonna go check. (https://twitter.com/puahate_txt https://twitter.com/puahate_txt)
- Raphmedia 13y agoMost people who turn to sex workers are people that have no access sex otherwise or who need, for some reason, to go see elsewhere. Three choices here: 1. Prostitution 2. Rape 3. One nights One is an health risk, another is simply wrong... prostitution is expensive. I would gladly give those people access to better, healthier, more regulated services.
- mooism2 13y agoFourth choice: do without sex.
- Raphmedia 13y agoThat would require more willpower than people who employ those services have. Hell, I couldn't do without sex myself. Edit: scratch that. It's not even about willpower at that point. I have no idea how an healthy adult could go without sex.
- biafra 13y ago> I have no idea how an healthy adult could go without sex. For how long do you think a healthy adult could go without sex? A week? A month? A year? Ten years? I wonder whether I am healthy according to your definition. I think I could go for 10 years without sex. But I'd rather not :-) But I cannot imagine having sex with a person that does so only because I give them money for it. I'd prefer having no sex then. Don't get me wrong I am all in for legalizing prostititution. I am proud for living in a country that has done this.
- phazmatis 13y agoHave you ever tried? Masturbation works just fine.
- phazmatis 13y agoOf course different people will feel the effects of settling for self-stimulation differently. This isn't the first time I've heard someone express their doubt that humans can go without actual sex. It sounds like hyperbole to me, but there very well may be a segment of the population that has a non-biological drive in addition to what everyone has.
- Raphmedia 13y agoI have pretty much not done it since I was 14 years old. I do from time to time, but it is not the same thing. No human relation, no body heat, no love (or fake love), etc. I would rather not rely on masturbation for a living. (That being said, I have never ever went to a prostitute)
- foobarqux 13y ago
- marquis 13y agoI'm a little biased on the issue because my friends (male and female) who have been working as prostitutes have all had mental health or sexual abuse issues (or as the top post says, trans women who have limited options). I'd give anything for prostitution not to be a viable business anymore, but I'm also reasonable enough to understand the complexities of humanity and would rather it be completely legalised, safe and regulated with full health care and police access. It won't be in our lifetimes that we see this profession gain the safety results it deserves (too many outlier factors, trafficking, underground abuse, drugs) but the only way to get closer to a system of genuine safety is total legalization. I applaud Canada and any other country looking to strengthen or improve its rights for prostitutes and clients.
- buttsex 13y ago4. Masturbation I wouldn't count rape as an alternative to sex. It's more about having power over someone in a disgusting way.
- shawn-furyan 13y agoI don't really buy the whole rape is all about power and not about sex meme, and it seems odd that the sexual urge aspects of rape are so often downplayed. The biological imperative for sex is very strong, and prolonged abstinence certainly seems to be correlated with increased impulsiveness and poor decision making. The assumption that someone who has abstained from sex/masturbation for a prolonged period would be more likely to perpetrate a violent crime (such as rape) seems to stand to reason. I think that this meme is more likely reflective of our society's relative comfort with sex vs. violence. We're more comfortable with discussing rape if we can cast it as purely about violence or power, but if we acknowledge the sexual aspects of it, then it somehow becomes more taboo. But this aversion to the sexual aspects of rape and crimes involving sex clouds our collective judgements regarding these crimes, inhibits our collective understand of issues surrounding them, and ultimately serves as a disservice to past, present and future victims of such crimes. To wit, if a society denies the existence of a primary cause of a particular socially negative human behavior, then it creates a blind spot for itself in trying to mitigate such behavior. And that effect is evident in the likes of laws reported in the article because they only exist due to our collective inability to have rational discourse concerning issues involving sex. As an aside, I think that the fact that I am responding to a throwaway account (with such a sexually repressed and juvenile handle) is telling of the discomfort in our society regarding discussion of sexual matters. The comment is composed entirely of the word "Masturbation", and an on-topic cliche, yet is apparently too risque to post under a real name (and if you're not going to be revealing your true identity, why not use "buttsex", and get the accompanying anonymous thrill of public naughtiness?). I find this moniker a sad reflection of our society.
- AJ007 13y ago6. Robots
- tsotha 13y agoDespite academic efforts to redefine the word, rape is sex. It may not be ethical or legal, and it may be violent, but anything that can get you pregnant is sex.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago> Three choices here: 1. Prostitution 2. Rape 3. One nights 4. Masturbation 5. Cold Shower 6. Abstinence
- king_jester 13y ago> Sex workers may not have another choice, but the clients do. Of course a client has a choice and the choice to use services offered by sex workers is just as valid as choosing not to. Even if you don't care for it yourself that doesn't justify the status of law as it is today.
- Raphmedia 13y agoRemember that in Canada, prostitution was already almost legal. You could prostitute yourself so long as you didn't harass customers or walk up to people and offer your services. You could however put ads in the newspaper for "Angela, 38DD, busty and hot, will massage you... all over". One of the things that you couldn't do was also very hurtful. You couldn't team up with other street workers in order to insure your safety. That would be a whorehouse, and they are illegal. So, you end up with girls in the streets, with no security, who cannot even talk straight about what they were willing and not willing to do. I'm very happy that those laws are lifted. And it doesn't come out of the blue. There has been discussions about in in the media in recent years, and I believe that most people understood that forbidding those girls to have security is an idiocy.
- lazyant 13y agoFrom what I understand, johns where being arrested for solicitation.
- parfe 13y agoGood. Solicitation threatens girls and women simply walking in their own neighborhoods.
- derefr 13y agoI think the GP meant, if a prostitute went up and offered her services to a john, and the john said yes, that would be considered "solicitation" on the part of the john. Which is to say, prostitution was legal for the prostitute, but illegal for the john.
- parfe 13y agoJohns don't passively sit in coffee shops or stand in line at Best Buy while beset by offers of sex for money. They roll up on girls and women walking down the street in an attempt to purchase sex.
- altero 13y agoIn Germany they went one step further. Prostitutes are registered workers, they pay taxes and must pass monthly health checks. They also get unemployment support and state pension after retirement. On other side many people lost unemployment support, because they refused to work in brothel as cleaners or maintenance personnel.
- chimeracoder 13y ago> Prostitutes are registered workers, they pay taxes and must pass monthly health checks. I fully support this. STIs are one of the biggest public costs of prostitution. (Yes, this is a public cost. Every time a new person is infected with (e.g.) HIV, from an epidemiological perspective, that increases the chances of some copy of the virus in some person mutating into a virulent - even airborne - version. This is why you should care about HIV infection rates, even if you practice safe sex and don't use IV drugs, etc.[0]) > On other side many people lost unemployment support, because they refused to work in brothel as cleaners or maintenance personnel. How is that any different from refusing to work in a hotel or a hospital as a janitor (or even as a nurse[1])? They may not like the line of work, but that's no different from disliking taking a job at Halliburton. While I sympathize with the goal of choosing a job ethically, in the US (not sure about Germany), unemployment benefits and requirements aren't designed with that in mind. [0] Even "curable" STIs are a public health problem We are already on the verge of creating - if we haven't already created - strains of gonorrhea that are resistant to all antibiotic treatments. [1] You wouldn't believe some of the stuff nurses in hospitals have to put up with on a daily basis.
- altero 13y agoSome of my relatives are nurses so I know well. There is big difference, just try to say: "I work in brothel!". Plus once employed one must follow work rules such as uniform... Not sure what is situation in US. But in contimental Europe one pays a lot of money on social tax (about 10% of salary). And government will jump through hoops to pay as little as possible.
- tomp 13y ago
- angersock 13y agoOne wonders...what is the legality of running a "service provider" from the US but incorporated in Canada for something like this? Like, say, a scheduling/reservation app for this?
- jmccree 13y agoNext big idea: Uber for sex.
- angersock 13y agoI'm pretty sure the Vooza guys already joked about this. EDIT: Finally, a use for all those questionably-named Rails gems!
- saraid216 13y agoGrindr?
- venomsnake 13y agoWasn't that gay only?
- gaius 13y agoTindr is the straight one.
- dobbsbob 13y agoUS will extradite the owners. Better be anonymous
- kfcm 13y agoIANAL. But stop and think. If "the activity" or "act" takes place in the US, it would still be illegal. If you have a pimping/pandering company based in Canada, offering services in the US, those on the US side could possibly face even higher charges of international human trafficking. (cf, the Mann Act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Act ) The US can arrest its citizens for their behavior in foreign countries where their behavior violates US law, whether said activities are legal or illegal in said foreign countries. One could say US law follows the citizen. (cf, UNITED STATES v. PASSARO [extension of jurisdiction over US Gov. contractors], US PROTECT ACT [anti-child exploitation], etc) The US can also deny visas to foreign nationals based upon what US law considers "moral turpitude", even though such may be legal in their home country. Relevant to this story, the US could deny a high visibility prostitute into the US, because most US states (and federal law, see MANN ACT) prohibit prostitution. (cf, INA 212(a)(2)(d): http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-2006.html http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/ilink/docView/SLB/H... ) This would not be a great idea.
- notastartup 13y agogood good. now PLEASE legalize marijuana, tax it to pay off the olympic debt and free Marc Emery.
- sliverstorm 13y agoThis article is about Canada.
- ehPReth 13y agoI think (s)he knows that, the references all apply to Canada.
- sliverstorm 13y agoMarc Emery is Canadian, but imprisoned in the USA. So how could Canada free him?
- dragonwriter 13y agoThere are mechanisms that nation-states have used to free people imprisoned in other nation-states without the cooperation of the imprisoning nation-state -- they frequently, however, have significant repercussions in the relations between the nation-states that make it inadvisable for a less-powerful nation-state to use them against a more-powerful one even if they have the capacity to acheive short-term success.
- vacri 13y agoNeither Canada nor the US are nation-states. That term specifically means a country where the people are pretty ethnically or culturally homogenous.
- dragonwriter 13y agoThe exact level of shared culture necessary to have a "nation" in the sense of "nation-state" is infinitely debatable, but the statement at issue is just true of states generally, so while your point might arguably be true, its not all that relevant.
- dmix 13y agoHere is the court case that brought this ruling: Bedford v. Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_v._Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_v._Canada
- tedivm 13y agoAs anyone who has actually read any of the articles about this can tell you, they did not actually overturn squat. The laws are still in effect and still being enforced. What happened is they gave the legislature a year to revise the laws to make them constitutional, but until then nothing has changed and there's a good chance these laws will be revised before the deadline.
- corresation 13y agoThe nature of the laws would have to change significantly as the court found the entire foundation behind the laws (largely moralizing/restricting the actions of others based upon personal values) unconstitutional. The government can't simply move a couple of punctuation marks and become compliant.
- RyanMcGreal 13y agoDue to the Court's reasoning - i.e. if prostitution is legal, it violates people's rights to prevent them from taking steps to protect their safety while engaging in it - I predict the government will react by making prostitution itself illegal.
- PeterWhittaker 13y agoPerhaps, but that possibility has long been in its arsenal: Prostitution has been legal in Canada for years, decades; this court ruling overturned as unconstitutional the laws criminalizing many associated activities, e.g., solicitation, living off the avails, etc. It was illegal to talk to a John, making vetting the John uh, difficult. It was illegal to hire bodyguards, because they would be living off the avails. While the ruling comes into effect only next year, the practical upshot, as with other rulings of this ilk in recent years, is that arrest and prosecution will now proceed only in the most egregious cases. My bold and brave prediction is that this Conservative-majority Parliament will duck the issue altogether and make regulation of prostitution a provincial matter - simply because they are unlikely to be able to reach any sort of consensus that would not fracture a fragile alliance between the ultra-conservative base, which makes most of the contributions, and the just right of centre centrists that are its silent majority.
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- undoware 13y agoI'm heartened by the response to this, both on Hacker News and elsewhere. Being a trans woman in IT is a bit weird -- because I can do incredible things with my mind, I'm off the hook my sisters are on, that makes them have to hook. Several roommates ago, I literally came home and found that my (also trans) roommate, who in addition to being trans was also dealing with immigration and had recently lost her job and had begun turning tricks at home. Had I not come home early from the university, I wouldn't have known. And I've always hated the Canadian legal system for making me kick her out. Because just being her roommate, under the previous legislation, would have classified as 'living off the avails' and would have made me legally indistinguishable from her pimp. Just for being her roommate. That's the sort of pauperizing, soul-crushing bullshit that you never, ever forget. Also, I'm a big fan of Katrina Pacey, the lawyer mentioned in the article. I've worked with her a few times on activist stuff (I got into sex worker advocacy after my up-close-and-personal. They can't do it themselves, they go to prison when they try. Well, before today. Go Katrina Pacey! Go Canadian legal system!)
- sergiotapia 13y agoThere is a middle ground. It's not "either I work using my brain, or I whore myself out." Many women are waitresses, shopping mall sweepers, store attendants, cashiers, you name it.
- kingkawn 13y agoAnd all of those jobs require your brain too, its just that the byproducts of that use are not considered valuable. Lots of innovation in waitressing if you ask them how they do it rather than what it results in.
- undoware 13y agoFun experiment for you. Go out and get a facial tattoo. Now try to get work. That's still easier than finding honest work when you're transsexual. Don't believe me? I can think of an even more decisive experiment...
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- timo9 13y agoContrary to popular belief, (most of) the US, (most of) Africa, (most of) Asia and Russia are among the only places where prostitution is in fact illegal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country
- spkb4uthk 13y agowhat's popular belief? US, Africa, Asia, and Russia seem to make up like 75+% of the world.
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- dobbsbob 13y agoThis will help suck the profits of org crime should legislation ever happen (won't with the current hawkish regime). Currently it is illegal to run a bawdy house unless it's a false front massage parlour so gangs run micro brothels which are condos stacked full of foreign girls. They tend to jack each other's brothels since it's a cash biz and police aren't called due to the condo operation being illegal. When sex workers can run their own and not worry about getting robbed these guys will have to get a job
- gjmulhol 13y agoCanada, where you can now find the world's most polite sex workers...in addition to the most polite everything else.
- RyanMcGreal 13y agoThe Court's reasoning was that since prostitution itself is legal, it is unconstitutional to prevent prostitutes from taking reasonable measures to manage their business, protect their safety and so on. My prediction is that the federal government will react not by amending the law to eliminate the unconstitutional restrictions but rather making prostitution itself illegal.
- loganu 13y agoI'm not so sure... I think there might be a genuine interest in actually helping/ protecting these women. Why wouldn't prostitution have been made criminal before? (instead of the de facto approach of arresting pimps and johns for soliciting and living off the avails?)
- frenchy 13y agoThe current government is conservative, so probably not. They've shown a distinct lack of interest in practical solutions and instead have stuck very solidly with their "ideals".
- pervycreeper 13y ago>"It makes no difference that the conduct of pimps and johns is the immediate source of the harms suffered by prostitutes," McLachlin wrote. > >"The impugned laws deprive people engaged in a risky, but legal, activity of the means to protect themselves against those risks." One of the things I've noticed reading newspaper articles and websites regarding legal rulings in Canada (the full depth of my research, admittedly), is that the reasoning seems to be governed by the judges' personal opinions of what would be fair ("we must protect the prostitutes from harm"), whereas American rulings seem to rely more upon the interpretation of texts such as their constitution. Is this an accurate characterization? If so is this a result of a differently structured legal system, or just a "cultural" difference?
- erikj54 13y ago>If so is this a result of a differently structured legal system, or just a "cultural" difference? From an uneducated opinion on the piece this seems to be the difference between Common Law vs Statutory Law. In Common Law the precedence of cases is used, where opinions and subjectivity are perhaps more inclined to change a decision, in contrast; Statutory Law has more to do with the enforcement of prescriptive laws written down by the legislature. While both Canada and the U.S are based on common law, we seem to lean further to the common side then our neighbours to the south.
- dublinben 13y agoCommon law and statutory law are not two different systems. You're thinking of common law and civil law, which are significantly different.
- danielharan 13y agoThere are cultural differences, however this comes down to how to interpret our charter. The US constitution protects the right to free speech, so I assume the SCOTUS can strike down laws that restrict it.
- mikeklaas 13y agoNo, that is not an accurate reading of the situation. Constitutionality in Canada is governed by the judges' interpretation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is part of the constitution. In this case, the judges determined that the legislation was not simply 'unfair', but infringed on a group of people's fundamental rights.
- auctiontheory 13y agoIronic that we sitting in the West learn about this from an Arab news service, i.e. from the most conservative and anti-woman region in the world.
- mmphosis 13y agoAl Jazeera has bureaus around the world. Pretty much all of the American content originates from the U.S. Many of the news people at Al Jazeera were formerly from CBS, ABC and CBC.
- trapped 13y agoWhy is this on HN? I feel very frustrated and sorry for HN. Lately there has been influx of Reddit users who are posting similar content and encouraging such links by upvoting it. PG - If you are reading this.Can we please do something to keep sanity of HN. Save HN.
- cobolorum 13y agoI just wish that their ruling was a little more broad and far reaching in its effect. For those like myself who believe in self-ownership this is a no brainer, and it would seem that people are recognizing the basics of self-ownership in this case, but refuse to do so in almost every other facet of modern Western law.