4 ms·

I always felt that Singapore just doesn't seem like the right place for someone like Derek Sivers. It's a beautiful and wonderfully located place, but the state

by strlen 13y ago

I always felt that Singapore just doesn't seem like the right place for someone like Derek Sivers. It's a beautiful and wonderfully located place, but the stated or unstated reasons many US expats give for moving there are narrowly selfish -- in the sense of irrational selfishness vs enlightened self-interest -- low taxes, clean streets. Yet Singapore's culture is strongly communitarian: there may be low income taxes, but there are tons of other rules and regulations. The reason for the low taxes, an efficient, universal, and well functioning healthcare system, and so on isn't liberal individual empowerment (which is often the reason given for both individualistic economic policies like low tax rates and for safety-net policies like universal healthcare in the West), it's greater communal good (which -- unlike in ther West -- is also defined in a way that's much more nuanced than "greatest good for the greatest number"). That reality may not hit people immediately, but it will eventually: e.g., if you plan to have kids, be ready for corporal punishment in most schools and even some junior colleges, and (far more burdensome and soul crushing for an individualistic soul) military conscription. Derek talked about this in earlier essays and acknowledge that he was resetting his operating system towards a more communitarian, giving the example of nominally "converting" to Islam to marry a woman. Yet to me that reason still seemed narrowly selfish, a much more principled and selfless act would be to refuse to compromise one's greater cultural and religious heritage and forgo one of life's greatest long-term pleasures (love) -- something I would not endorse, as it would result in great misery for both himself and now wife. Personally, I am lucky, as I found United State's "left coast" and "far west" cultures to be my home: I see my own culture was being a happy medium between these two, but I have a fluent understanding and appreciation of both of these cultures. They mesh far better than the cultures I've been brought up in (secular Jewish and Russian) and I'm very lucky that I have the ability to pick and choose -- I would simply not survive (in the physical sense) had I attempted to live a life true to my personal views in the land I was born in. I sincerely hope that Derek finds in New Zealand a culture he can belong to.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
zhemao 13y ago
> If you plan to have kids, be ready for corporal punishment in most schools and even some junior colleges, and (far more burdensome and soul crushing for an individualistic soul) military conscription For US expats raising their kids in Singapore, there is the option of sending them to the American international school (http://www.sais.edu.sg/ http://www.sais.edu.sg/) instead of the public Singaporean school system. As for military conscription, that only applies to citizens, so if your children take US citizenship instead of Singaporean citizenship (US practices Jus Sanguinis, so I think this is possible), they wouldn't have to worry about military service (I'm not Singaporean or an immigration lawyer, so don't take my word on that). In short, expats can totally avoid having that reality hit them. Expats tend to live in a totally different world than the natives of the countries in which they settle.
- visakanv 13y ago
  ^and many if not all of them do just that, yes.
- mdda 13y ago
  US citizens are taxed on world-wide income, so the benefits of the low-tax environment aren't so much of a factor, since you owe the IRS on whatever you earn anywhere on earth (but for a ~$80k exemption). Most other countries tax based on where you earn (i.e. earn money while resident abroad => don't have to remit tax on those earnings to your birth-country). AFAIK, Sivers (smartly) had a lot of his exit proceeds put in a trust, so he may be somewhat tax-agnostic.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    After your $97,600 foreign-earned income exclusion (2013), you can at least deduct the taxes you pay to another foreign government. I don't even bother with the FEIE anymore, I just deduct my higher Chinese taxes. But to each his own.
  - strlen 13y ago
    Sivers also did surrender his US citizenship: https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/04/30/2012-10274/quarterly-publication-of-individuals-who-have-chosen-to-expatriate https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/04/30/2012-102...
visakanv 13y ago
This bothered me deeply, and so I had to take it apart, point by point. 1: Singapore is not right for "someone like Sivers" 2: People move to Singapore because they're narrowly selfish 3: Singapore is communitarian, not liberal-individual-empowerment (sure.) 4: Corporal punishment and military conscription are burdensome and soul-crushing for an individualistic soul. 5: strlen feels it's relatively unprincipled and selfish of Sivers to "compromise his (Siver's) greater cultural and religious heritage" because of love 6: But strlen would not endorse such a compromise himself because it would result in great misery 7: strlen is lucky for not having had to compromise his personal views/values 8: strlen hopes Sivers finds a culture he can belong to While all of this is written in good English and the language sounds pleasant, I can't help but react negatively to it. It feels somewhat... patronizing?
- ars_technician 13y ago
  If you don't have anything to say, why even reply?
- strlen 13y ago
  Majority of what I said is opinion and prefaced as such, other than fairly true bits about Singapore's communitarian culture (true) and tax rates (true). Otherwise, very little is normative and instructive (telling someone that this what they should do instead of what I'd do in the same circumstances). So I am not sure how I am patronizing someone as opposed to stating deeply opinion. I mentioned this in another comment, but John Rawls had the concept of a "decent state" -- which may have a radically different tradition than, e.g., US or UK, but one where basic civil rights are still honored and respected. Singapore fits this bill, so I don't think its system should be condemned in the same vein as many states (perhaps majority of the world today) where, e.g., civil wars flare and religious and ethnic persecution is a day-to-day reality. > 2: People move to Singapore because they're narrowly selfish Sivers did surrender his US citizenship, so I can assume taxation did have some reason that choice (although it could be simply to avoid double taxation -- .sg taxes plus US taxes on top -- rather only choosing lower taxes). However, I never stated that all -- or even most -- immigrants to Singapore do this. I can only state this about Westerners moving there permanently (it's another matter about living there temporarily as part of a job, etc..), for most of whom taxation plays a determining role. I am actually aware personally of many people who moved to Singapore for far different reasons (fleeing civil wars, seeking basic economic opportunity) -- but none of them were Westerners. For example, I attended high school and university with people who grew up in Singapore having fled grinding poverty in Burma or reeducation camps in Vietnam. In what I think is a huge criticism of US, their families were not initially allowed to enter the US: they were only able to move to the US once their parents established themselves in Singapore, obtained the right employment and education, and move to US on H1B visas.

by strlen 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

zhemao 13y ago

> If you plan to have kids, be ready for corporal punishment in most schools and even some junior colleges, and (far more burdensome and soul crushing for an individualistic soul) military conscription For US expats raising their kids in Singapore, there is the option of sending them to the American international school (http://www.sais.edu.sg/ http://www.sais.edu.sg/) instead of the public Singaporean school system. As for military conscription, that only applies to citizens, so if your children take US citizenship instead of Singaporean citizenship (US practices Jus Sanguinis, so I think this is possible), they wouldn't have to worry about military service (I'm not Singaporean or an immigration lawyer, so don't take my word on that). In short, expats can totally avoid having that reality hit them. Expats tend to live in a totally different world than the natives of the countries in which they settle.

visakanv 13y ago
^and many if not all of them do just that, yes.
mdda 13y ago
US citizens are taxed on world-wide income, so the benefits of the low-tax environment aren't so much of a factor, since you owe the IRS on whatever you earn anywhere on earth (but for a ~$80k exemption). Most other countries tax based on where you earn (i.e. earn money while resident abroad => don't have to remit tax on those earnings to your birth-country). AFAIK, Sivers (smartly) had a lot of his exit proceeds put in a trust, so he may be somewhat tax-agnostic.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  After your $97,600 foreign-earned income exclusion (2013), you can at least deduct the taxes you pay to another foreign government. I don't even bother with the FEIE anymore, I just deduct my higher Chinese taxes. But to each his own.
- strlen 13y ago
  Sivers also did surrender his US citizenship: https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/04/30/2012-10274/quarterly-publication-of-individuals-who-have-chosen-to-expatriate https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/04/30/2012-102...

visakanv 13y ago

This bothered me deeply, and so I had to take it apart, point by point. 1: Singapore is not right for "someone like Sivers" 2: People move to Singapore because they're narrowly selfish 3: Singapore is communitarian, not liberal-individual-empowerment (sure.) 4: Corporal punishment and military conscription are burdensome and soul-crushing for an individualistic soul. 5: strlen feels it's relatively unprincipled and selfish of Sivers to "compromise his (Siver's) greater cultural and religious heritage" because of love 6: But strlen would not endorse such a compromise himself because it would result in great misery 7: strlen is lucky for not having had to compromise his personal views/values 8: strlen hopes Sivers finds a culture he can belong to While all of this is written in good English and the language sounds pleasant, I can't help but react negatively to it. It feels somewhat... patronizing?

ars_technician 13y ago
If you don't have anything to say, why even reply?
strlen 13y ago
Majority of what I said is opinion and prefaced as such, other than fairly true bits about Singapore's communitarian culture (true) and tax rates (true). Otherwise, very little is normative and instructive (telling someone that this what they should do instead of what I'd do in the same circumstances). So I am not sure how I am patronizing someone as opposed to stating deeply opinion. I mentioned this in another comment, but John Rawls had the concept of a "decent state" -- which may have a radically different tradition than, e.g., US or UK, but one where basic civil rights are still honored and respected. Singapore fits this bill, so I don't think its system should be condemned in the same vein as many states (perhaps majority of the world today) where, e.g., civil wars flare and religious and ethnic persecution is a day-to-day reality. > 2: People move to Singapore because they're narrowly selfish Sivers did surrender his US citizenship, so I can assume taxation did have some reason that choice (although it could be simply to avoid double taxation -- .sg taxes plus US taxes on top -- rather only choosing lower taxes). However, I never stated that all -- or even most -- immigrants to Singapore do this. I can only state this about Westerners moving there permanently (it's another matter about living there temporarily as part of a job, etc..), for most of whom taxation plays a determining role. I am actually aware personally of many people who moved to Singapore for far different reasons (fleeing civil wars, seeking basic economic opportunity) -- but none of them were Westerners. For example, I attended high school and university with people who grew up in Singapore having fled grinding poverty in Burma or reeducation camps in Vietnam. In what I think is a huge criticism of US, their families were not initially allowed to enter the US: they were only able to move to the US once their parents established themselves in Singapore, obtained the right employment and education, and move to US on H1B visas.