6 ms·

I think the author raises a valid point. Back in the days, when Microsoft was the big, bad guy which everyone feared, not a monopolist, but the Monopolist, the

by trezor 17y ago

I think the author raises a valid point. Back in the days, when Microsoft was the big, bad guy which everyone feared, not a monopolist, but the Monopolist, the One That Had To Be Stopped(tm), the current state of affairs was as following: * Microsoft controlled the OS * Microsoft had a Office suite (and defacto control of interchange file-formats) * Microsoft had a web-browser * Microsoft has a mobile platform (with support for the Office file formats and little else) Now let's take a look at Google whose ass everyone seems collectively interested in kissing: * Google controls the majority of all web search * Google controls the majority of free web-mail * Google apps not only makes it their software but they also control your data * Google also has access to your local data albeit only if you use Google desktop search * Google tracks users everywhere on the web Google analytics lets them know what you are doing and why * Google has a browser * Google has a mobile OS Oh! And it in ties closely with all of Google's services * Google has a closed platform for application hosting Again they have total access to all your data And now Google wants to make a desktop OS to further make sure they control every part of your daily activities. But I guess it is entirely unproblematic that they can track your every activity wherever you are, on whatever device you are and whatever platform you are using. They are the good guys, right? And it's not like they have lock-in on the file-formats you use, they just have lock-in on your actual data. I mean who cares about that? After all they are using web-standards to do the stuff they do, so it can't be bad, right? Edit: Posts like this makes me wish HN had markdown support for unordered lists allready.

ErrantX 17y ago
solution (if you dont trust them). dont use Google, it's perfectly possible to do so.
- trezor 17y ago
  That doesn't alter the fact that they are much more in control of what most users do, yet people regard Microsoft as the one we should be afraid of. And how would you know if you send mail to someone using gmail or gmail hosted that google doesn't use this information against you? You don't. I'm not saying we need to shut down Google, just that I find it odd that most of the FOSS world still regards Microsoft as the one we should be afraid of and avoid at all cost. After all: Google does have its arsenal of closed-source solutions with varying degrees of lock-in and little to no options for opting out once your data is harvested. If the day comes that the government wants to go big brother on us, I'm pretty sure Google and/or their data will first on the list of things they want to get under their control, not Microsoft.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    Hmmm well yes but your levelling a BIG claim against Google there. Any proof to back up the idea they might abuse data? If not then what foundation does your mis-trust have? My point still stands though - if you dont trust them with your data dont use them. If you dont trust your data will be safe in future dont use them. If the "big brother" future ever happens I suspect which company your with will be the least of our problems :) Indeed I would argue that going with a larger company (especially one that has refused to hand over data already) is more sensible - because smaller ones have no power against governments.
    - trezor 17y ago
      Not so much making big claims as airing the possibility. Just saying that avoiding Google entirely these days is harder than it might seem. Since so many people use Google's services chances are they might wind up with some of your data one way or the other, with your name attached. And like I said, I'm not saying they are evil and blah blah, I just find the lack of scepticism towards Google somewhat odd when people are screaming bloody murder over any and every thing Microsoft does.
    - shiranaihito 17y ago
      > Any proof to back up the idea they might abuse data? There's no need for proof, and it would be really difficult to find even if they were already doing unspeakable things with the world's data. The problem is that the data is there, ready to be abused when a Google executive happens to make that decision. Imagine sitting next to a conveyor belt shifting an endless stream of cheese cakes past you. You know they're not your cheese cakes, and that it would be inappropriate to take one. Now suppose you also knew that even if you did stuff your face with the cheese cakes whizzing past, there's no way you could get caught. Now suppose that you knew a guy who'd pay you truckloads of money for a few cheese cakes. And finally, suppose that the government stepped in and insisted that you leave the room and let them watch over the cheese cakes.
      - ErrantX 17y ago
        There is need for proof - or even some kind of suggestion. Otherwise it's just a scare story :) YES consider what data Google stores about you and if you feel comfortable with it. But to suggest they are or plan to do something evil with it you need to actually come up with something more cohesive than, say, a feeling. Example: I can suggest your bank could be doing all SORTS of things with your data - potentially supremely damaging stuff.... but you trust them, right? ;) Capacity to do something and trust are different things. So I say again: if you dont trust them. Dont use them. :)
dantheman 17y ago
Google most definitely does not control email. Yahoo mail has many more users.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  That may be so, but it's been a long time since I've mailed somebody at a yahoo address, gmail addresses are 13 per dozen in my contact list, and all of them are active as far as I can see.
  - stanley 17y ago
    Anecdotal statistics are meaningless. Yahoo still controls the lion's share of the email market, and they don't even offer free POP3 access to your account.
  - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
    I have 2 gmail contacts (actually I think they're googlemail?) out of 300+. I don't really see any clusters. But then I don't have many geek friends/acquaintances and those that I do know appear to use company email addresses mainly.
- dkarl 17y ago
  I have two Yahoo addresses that I check once a month and one Gmail account I'm logged into 24/7.
tjogin 17y ago
There is no lock-in with Google, and that makes all the difference. Switching to a different provider of search, email, website statistics, ads, browser, etc, is not only possible — it is effortless. Google haven't made alliances with other vendors to make it hard or even uncomfortable to use a competitor's product in either market. Quite the contrary, many of their services provide means of exporting my data, unlike many of their competitors. Google does not dominate either one of those markets due to having leveraged dominance on another market, forcing the end-user's choice. I do not have to use Gmail just because I use Google for searching, it is just as easy to use any other email provider instead. Same thing goes for ads, browser, etc. As long as Google's services continue to be free of lock-in and either one are easily switched out for a competitor's product, I'll be comfortable using their various services in spite of dominance in various markets.
- patio11 17y ago
  There is no lock-in with Google, and that makes all the difference. I don't know, considering they're responsible for something like 80% of my business most days I'm feeling pretty freaking locked in...
  - turtle4 17y ago
    No, you're feeling dependent. There's a difference. If you are using 80% of their services now, it is because you feel like you are getting good return on them. If you decide that isn't the case in the future, as the original poster said, it is easy to move whatever portion of their service you aren't happy with to another provider. If there isn't another provider that offers the same level of service and the same ability to walk away that Google does, that isn't lock-in, and it isn't really Google's fault. I do wish there was another email provider that I felt had as strong an offering as gmail does, just in case.
    - chaosmachine 17y ago
      He's talking about search traffic to his business. I feel the same way. It's scary knowing that if one company blacklists you, you basically disappear from the internet. Google provides 99% of my incoming search traffic (even though I rank higher on other engines).
zimbabwe 17y ago
But I guess it is entirely unproblematic that they can track your every activity wherever you are, on whatever device you are and whatever platform you are using. They are the good guys, right? That's smarmy. I'll admit a teensy bit of bias, since I've never understood why people are so worried about being tracked. My letters to college professors I'm fine with Google scanning; love letters are about as embarrassing as my Google communications get, but I'm not exactly worried about them leaking to the world. If you don't want to use Google, don't use Google. Use DuckDuckGo for search, set up your own webmail, don't use Chrome, don't use the Google Toolbar, don't use Android, and Google has absolutely no power over you. You're free! Meanwhile, Google makes their business out of studying data, and its users all seem to think that's worth getting access to Google's stuff. I hate this sarcastic mode of writing posts wherein it's a given that the company's evil, so you're allowed little jabs like: After all they are using web-standards to do the stuff they do, so it can't be bad, right? Nobody mentioned fucking web standards, man. Nobody would ever use that as a counterargument. You're raising strawmen to be baked in gas chambers. I don't use my Google account at all nowadays. Google doesn't seem too upset by that. I'm satisfied with their level of control if they're not assholes about it when I stop being enslaved.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  So, some suggestions: - Your business plan about your web search startup. - correspondence / health records documenting some medical condition - a personal diary where you admit to something embarassing All of these - and true, they're created to illustrate the point so a little farfetched - would be a real problem in case google decided to take a more active interest in the contents of your various data stores.
- Elepsis 17y ago
  And how is this different from what you can do with Microsoft software and services today?
  - gnaritas 17y ago
    Google doesn't force its products on anyone, Microsoft does. Windows still comes preloaded on most PC's sold, even if you don't want it and don't want to pay for it. Then vendors aren't doing that to you, Microsoft is making them.
encoderer 17y ago
Without disagreeing with your broader point, Gmail is popular but far from "controlling the majority of free web-mail."
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
allenbrunson 17y ago
It's not really how much stuff Microsoft controlled that made them dangerous. It's the fact that they had no qualms about using their monopoly power to squash competitors. So far, Google hasn't demonstrated that tendency.

by trezor 17y ago

ErrantX 17y ago

solution (if you dont trust them). dont use Google, it's perfectly possible to do so.

trezor 17y ago
That doesn't alter the fact that they are much more in control of what most users do, yet people regard Microsoft as the one we should be afraid of. And how would you know if you send mail to someone using gmail or gmail hosted that google doesn't use this information against you? You don't. I'm not saying we need to shut down Google, just that I find it odd that most of the FOSS world still regards Microsoft as the one we should be afraid of and avoid at all cost. After all: Google does have its arsenal of closed-source solutions with varying degrees of lock-in and little to no options for opting out once your data is harvested. If the day comes that the government wants to go big brother on us, I'm pretty sure Google and/or their data will first on the list of things they want to get under their control, not Microsoft.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  Hmmm well yes but your levelling a BIG claim against Google there. Any proof to back up the idea they might abuse data? If not then what foundation does your mis-trust have? My point still stands though - if you dont trust them with your data dont use them. If you dont trust your data will be safe in future dont use them. If the "big brother" future ever happens I suspect which company your with will be the least of our problems :) Indeed I would argue that going with a larger company (especially one that has refused to hand over data already) is more sensible - because smaller ones have no power against governments.
  - trezor 17y ago
    Not so much making big claims as airing the possibility. Just saying that avoiding Google entirely these days is harder than it might seem. Since so many people use Google's services chances are they might wind up with some of your data one way or the other, with your name attached. And like I said, I'm not saying they are evil and blah blah, I just find the lack of scepticism towards Google somewhat odd when people are screaming bloody murder over any and every thing Microsoft does.
  - shiranaihito 17y ago
    > Any proof to back up the idea they might abuse data? There's no need for proof, and it would be really difficult to find even if they were already doing unspeakable things with the world's data. The problem is that the data is there, ready to be abused when a Google executive happens to make that decision. Imagine sitting next to a conveyor belt shifting an endless stream of cheese cakes past you. You know they're not your cheese cakes, and that it would be inappropriate to take one. Now suppose you also knew that even if you did stuff your face with the cheese cakes whizzing past, there's no way you could get caught. Now suppose that you knew a guy who'd pay you truckloads of money for a few cheese cakes. And finally, suppose that the government stepped in and insisted that you leave the room and let them watch over the cheese cakes.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      There is need for proof - or even some kind of suggestion. Otherwise it's just a scare story :) YES consider what data Google stores about you and if you feel comfortable with it. But to suggest they are or plan to do something evil with it you need to actually come up with something more cohesive than, say, a feeling. Example: I can suggest your bank could be doing all SORTS of things with your data - potentially supremely damaging stuff.... but you trust them, right? ;) Capacity to do something and trust are different things. So I say again: if you dont trust them. Dont use them. :)

dantheman 17y ago

Google most definitely does not control email. Yahoo mail has many more users.

jacquesm 17y ago
That may be so, but it's been a long time since I've mailed somebody at a yahoo address, gmail addresses are 13 per dozen in my contact list, and all of them are active as far as I can see.
- stanley 17y ago
  Anecdotal statistics are meaningless. Yahoo still controls the lion's share of the email market, and they don't even offer free POP3 access to your account.
- pbhjpbhj 17y ago
  I have 2 gmail contacts (actually I think they're googlemail?) out of 300+. I don't really see any clusters. But then I don't have many geek friends/acquaintances and those that I do know appear to use company email addresses mainly.
dkarl 17y ago
I have two Yahoo addresses that I check once a month and one Gmail account I'm logged into 24/7.

tjogin 17y ago

There is no lock-in with Google, and that makes all the difference. Switching to a different provider of search, email, website statistics, ads, browser, etc, is not only possible — it is effortless. Google haven't made alliances with other vendors to make it hard or even uncomfortable to use a competitor's product in either market. Quite the contrary, many of their services provide means of exporting my data, unlike many of their competitors. Google does not dominate either one of those markets due to having leveraged dominance on another market, forcing the end-user's choice. I do not have to use Gmail just because I use Google for searching, it is just as easy to use any other email provider instead. Same thing goes for ads, browser, etc. As long as Google's services continue to be free of lock-in and either one are easily switched out for a competitor's product, I'll be comfortable using their various services in spite of dominance in various markets.

patio11 17y ago
There is no lock-in with Google, and that makes all the difference. I don't know, considering they're responsible for something like 80% of my business most days I'm feeling pretty freaking locked in...
- turtle4 17y ago
  No, you're feeling dependent. There's a difference. If you are using 80% of their services now, it is because you feel like you are getting good return on them. If you decide that isn't the case in the future, as the original poster said, it is easy to move whatever portion of their service you aren't happy with to another provider. If there isn't another provider that offers the same level of service and the same ability to walk away that Google does, that isn't lock-in, and it isn't really Google's fault. I do wish there was another email provider that I felt had as strong an offering as gmail does, just in case.
  - chaosmachine 17y ago
    He's talking about search traffic to his business. I feel the same way. It's scary knowing that if one company blacklists you, you basically disappear from the internet. Google provides 99% of my incoming search traffic (even though I rank higher on other engines).

zimbabwe 17y ago

But I guess it is entirely unproblematic that they can track your every activity wherever you are, on whatever device you are and whatever platform you are using. They are the good guys, right? That's smarmy. I'll admit a teensy bit of bias, since I've never understood why people are so worried about being tracked. My letters to college professors I'm fine with Google scanning; love letters are about as embarrassing as my Google communications get, but I'm not exactly worried about them leaking to the world. If you don't want to use Google, don't use Google. Use DuckDuckGo for search, set up your own webmail, don't use Chrome, don't use the Google Toolbar, don't use Android, and Google has absolutely no power over you. You're free! Meanwhile, Google makes their business out of studying data, and its users all seem to think that's worth getting access to Google's stuff. I hate this sarcastic mode of writing posts wherein it's a given that the company's evil, so you're allowed little jabs like: After all they are using web-standards to do the stuff they do, so it can't be bad, right? Nobody mentioned fucking web standards, man. Nobody would ever use that as a counterargument. You're raising strawmen to be baked in gas chambers. I don't use my Google account at all nowadays. Google doesn't seem too upset by that. I'm satisfied with their level of control if they're not assholes about it when I stop being enslaved.

jacquesm 17y ago
So, some suggestions: - Your business plan about your web search startup. - correspondence / health records documenting some medical condition - a personal diary where you admit to something embarassing All of these - and true, they're created to illustrate the point so a little farfetched - would be a real problem in case google decided to take a more active interest in the contents of your various data stores.
Elepsis 17y ago
And how is this different from what you can do with Microsoft software and services today?
- gnaritas 17y ago
  Google doesn't force its products on anyone, Microsoft does. Windows still comes preloaded on most PC's sold, even if you don't want it and don't want to pay for it. Then vendors aren't doing that to you, Microsoft is making them.

encoderer 17y ago

Without disagreeing with your broader point, Gmail is popular but far from "controlling the majority of free web-mail."

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

allenbrunson 17y ago

It's not really how much stuff Microsoft controlled that made them dangerous. It's the fact that they had no qualms about using their monopoly power to squash competitors. So far, Google hasn't demonstrated that tendency.