5 ms·

Interesting thoughts on Windows 7 design from a long-time Mac user

27 points by zimbabwe 17y ago

makecheck 17y ago
Interesting observations. The Windows branding one is kind of funny; this isn't new for Microsoft, they've just decided to replace "Microsoft" with "Windows". I remember being amazed at the stupidity, I think almost every version of Windows since 1.0 has used the name "Microsoft" 5 times on the splash screen alone ("Microsoft Windows 95" with "Microsoft Internet Explorer", "(c)1995 Microsoft Corporation", a stylized "Microsoft" logo in the corner, "Registered trademark of Microsoft", etc.). Someone in that organization is basically nuts. :)
varaon 17y ago
Mixed feelings on the updates, but Microsoft seems quick to patch security vulnerabilities lately. Same topic but unrelated, W7 will fetch and download drivers that it doesn't have installed. I find OS X to be too monochromatic - I've made several modifications to get bolder icons, Dock, white text on black menubar. Granted, W7 does lack the same tightly controlled consistency as OS X, but I like the look. I'm impressed with the Ribbon interface. The point about the large bezels - they make them stand out; it's a good design idea for Windows (note the distinction - it's good within their UI paradigm). ed: clarity
- makecheck 17y ago
  If you want a really unique look, try control+option+command+8 on a Mac. :)
  - varaon 17y ago
    I used to use that for easier reading. Irony being, now that my Firefox skin and menubar are both black, it just makes them obnoxiously bright. f.lux is wonderful though - lowers the colour temperature based on time of day, so you don't have a harsh 9100K monitor at 11 pm. Windows and Mac - http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/ http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/ ed: for even more fun, play with 'Filters' in the ColorSync Utility
  - maximilian 17y ago
    I was looking at a MacBook Air at a Fry's electronics, which had the inverted look, and I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on with the screen. I made sure to google control+option+command+8 before hitting it though...
  - dkarl 17y ago
    Wow, that's neat! Now I'm watching my favorite YouTube cooking videos and pretending I'm a nuclear scientist.
- zimbabwe 17y ago
  I liked the Ribbon a lot before I got used to the Mac mentality of "reduce buttons at all costs". Ribbons work far better than lots of drop-down menus when you're dealing with something ridiculously complex. OS X used to have an awesome theming app called Shapeshifter, which doesn't yet work for OS X. There was one ultrapervasive theme called Gaia that I've always wanted to play with and couldn't, since I came in on Leopard. Check it out: http://macthemes2.net/2007/08/10/theme-review-gaia/ http://macthemes2.net/2007/08/10/theme-review-gaia/
  - varaon 17y ago
    Try Magnifique: http://magnifiqueapp.com/ http://magnifiqueapp.com/ (free)
    - zimbabwe 17y ago
      Excellent! Playing with it now. EDIT: Dammit, its Gaia theme is a third-party remake that's very glitchy. To its credit, it didn't delete system-crucial files when I removed all the testing themes.
bep 17y ago
"I’m slightly amused that there were 8 updates already." There were up to 10 test updates for the RC: http://blogs.technet.com/mu/archive/2009/05/08/upcoming-updates-for-windows-7-rc.aspx http://blogs.technet.com/mu/archive/2009/05/08/upcoming-upda...
- msc 17y ago
  "First impressions of Windows 7 from a Mac user: * I’m slightly amused that there were 8 updates already." 3 months after buying my first Apple product (MacBook Aluminium), I find out that an old Java vulnerability was still unpatched. They finally patched it, what, a couple of weeks ago? I welcome updates, I don't know what's so amusing.
  - zimbabwe 17y ago
    Marco has a tendency to be a snot. He's very bright, writes well, and I usually agree with the basics of what he's saying (in this case, his talk about their overcluttering made me think this was worth a submit), but he frequently sells past an agreeable point.
  - froo 17y ago
    I welcome updates, I don't know what's so amusing. Exactly, the update manager in Ubuntu boots up every couple of days for me to make sure my installation is the most up to date possible. Is this the part where Marco starts slagging off Linux too? Updates are good - it shows that someone is taking an active interest in maintaining a stable product and I think it is foolish to present blatant bias here when that aspect of your argument can be easily disproven. Yes, Microsoft is copying Apple - They did it before with the first Windows, they'll more than likely do it again in the future. Get over it fanboys.
    - skalpelis 17y ago
      The Mac software updater actually runs weekly in the background, it just doesn't bother you in case no updates are available.
  - 17y ago
taitems 17y ago
It's not often you hear of Microsoft setting design or usability trends, but the Office ribbon has seen a pretty vast uptake. As a UI designer I have personally implemented it in various web apps. I'm looking forward to what Microsoft does next, honestly.
- makecheck 17y ago
  I know an engineer who was not only frustrated with the ribbon, but actually attributed it to Vista (i.e. to say she "didn't like Vista" when what she described was clearly a feature of Office). I suspect she was just too used to the old way (for better or for worse), but that's still valid. Maybe the ribbon isn't bad, but Microsoft should have introduced it more gradually, e.g. alongside a familiar menu bar instead of replacing the menu bar completely.
  - taitems 17y ago
    I won't deny the Microsoft ribbon has a really steep learning curve, but it's valuable even if just to learn how not to design/implement a ribbon. The people that I have met that have difficulty adjusting to the ribbon (my 60 year old father, other 20 year old students etc) have either adjusted to it over time, or simply never made an effort to learn how to use it, and continue to complain about it.
- jemmons 17y ago
  Why is the ribbon usable? What positive effects have you seen that caused you to implement it in various apps. As a user interface designer, how is the ribbon better than the interface it replaces? I don't doubt what you say, but anecdotal claims are not very interesting -- nor do they convince me I should be awaiting Microsoft's next innovation with baited breath, if that's your intent.
  - fatdog789 17y ago
    It's easier to use -- all the buttons visible at any given time are related in some way, so it's easier to find what you're looking for (or conversely, to tell if what you're looking for is not currently visible. It's more amendable to touch-based interfaces. Bigger buttons = more area to click.
drawkbox 17y ago
Windows is dead. I know of no developers using Windows anymore, myself included, except for gaming, visual studio or directx development. Everything programming-wise is nix focused and Mac won because of that. OSX is the perfect *nix backend with usable front end. When you win over the developers, things are gonna change. Developers, developers, devel...
- bep 17y ago
  The fact that you don't know any developer that is using Windows doesn't mean that is true. The large array of apps that Windows support is still to massive to consider it dead. I know, you could VM everything, but is not practical to do so.
- sker 17y ago
  I only know developers using Windows. Does that cancels your argument?
  - drawkbox 17y ago
    Are they using it for anything other than visual studio? It was a boisterous claim, but there is a movement. Two things I think are causing it... 1) I think though something major happened with the move to intel chips and a nix backend to OSX. Dropping PowerPC and the old Mac OS is something Microsoft couldn't do and now Windows is stuck. 2) Also major market changes that push it that direction. - iPhone/Touch device and market - Dynamic languages like python + ruby and rails/django web frameworks associated with them - XBOX 360 caused people who were windows PC gamers to go console, making the main reason to buy a PC in the past (games) largely moot. - New multi-platform game engines like Unity3D and now that Mac is Intel you can develop for both easily. (unity3d is what initially made me make the switch) - The cloud computing paradigm (yes it is buzz but real) is pretty much not windows based, it pushes cheap nix OSes and a nix based OS as your base is much better. - Distributed source control such as git that weren't and aren't very Windows friendly - Finally good systems, right click, and killer machines (one dude I know has a 30 inch Mac screen and a 32GB 8 processor Pro, it is a monster). These things look like giant iPods now rather than colored beads. - OpenGL is resurging with Khronos support (ES for mobile and all associated libraries) Every developer that I know that has gone that direction has not come back, typically these are talented developers as well and long time windows people (myself included, C++ MFC, MCSD C++, MCSD.NET, .net developer for 8 years, did one of the first public .net sites with Microsoft for a large CPG packaging goods company, game developer on windows) There are more reasons but I see the change, do you? The fact that you can run lots of great tools even Windows within parallels or bootcamp also added to the move. Once you go Mac you never go... Windows will still be needed for development for some time, but all new, fun and multi-platform development it is not required anymore. That being said I have two monster machines, Vista 64bit PC and an iMac and I need and use them both. I can tell you which one is more fun to work on though...
jsz0 17y ago
Anyone who doesn't live in a certain environment can't really give an objective view of these things. We may look at it and say "wow that's annoying" but a long time Windows user may look at it and say "Thank you Microsoft! Thank you for the Updates! I feel so much safer now! Oh and you hide those annoying system tray icons for me too! I LOVE YOU" Long time Windows users will probably be quite happy with Windows 7. For everyone else there are several good alternatives these days.
endtime 17y ago
These thoughts aren't interesting at all. Most of them are smug and vapid. >I'm slightly amused that there were 8 updates already. Why? It's RC software. >There’s an odd dichotomy with using text labels... I actually turned text on in the taskbar, but nevertheless, it's pretty much the same as OS X. Doesn't one typically recognize a program by its icon in both OSes? >The use of color is odd for OS X users. The only place that seems overtly colorful is the login/locked screen. Certainly personal preference; the implied value judgement (that OS X is classy and Win7 is gaudy) is just silly. >It seems like Microsoft is really hammering the Windows branding into your face as frequently as possible. Everything has Windows logos, the Start button’s logo glows eerily on hover, and everything is called Windows-something. Apple is much more subtle and conservative with the use of their name, the Mac name, and their logos. This is just silly. The only place I see the Windows logo is the Start button. And the use of loaded adjectives - "eerily" for Windows, "subtle" and "conservative" for OS X - betrays any objectivity the author might have claimed.
towndrunk 17y ago
Still no system wide spell checking in edit fields. The simple word processor, write.exe doesn't even have spell check after all these years either.

27 points by zimbabwe 17y ago

Interesting observations. The Windows branding one is kind of funny; this isn't new for Microsoft, they've just decided to replace "Microsoft" with "Windows". I remember being amazed at the stupidity, I think almost every version of Windows since 1.0 has used the name "Microsoft" 5 times on the splash screen alone ("Microsoft Windows 95" with "Microsoft Internet Explorer", "(c)1995 Microsoft Corporation", a stylized "Microsoft" logo in the corner, "Registered trademark of Microsoft", etc.). Someone in that organization is basically nuts. :)

varaon 17y ago

Mixed feelings on the updates, but Microsoft seems quick to patch security vulnerabilities lately. Same topic but unrelated, W7 will fetch and download drivers that it doesn't have installed. I find OS X to be too monochromatic - I've made several modifications to get bolder icons, Dock, white text on black menubar. Granted, W7 does lack the same tightly controlled consistency as OS X, but I like the look. I'm impressed with the Ribbon interface. The point about the large bezels - they make them stand out; it's a good design idea for Windows (note the distinction - it's good within their UI paradigm). ed: clarity

makecheck 17y ago
If you want a really unique look, try control+option+command+8 on a Mac. :)
- varaon 17y ago
  I used to use that for easier reading. Irony being, now that my Firefox skin and menubar are both black, it just makes them obnoxiously bright. f.lux is wonderful though - lowers the colour temperature based on time of day, so you don't have a harsh 9100K monitor at 11 pm. Windows and Mac - http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/ http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/ ed: for even more fun, play with 'Filters' in the ColorSync Utility
- maximilian 17y ago
  I was looking at a MacBook Air at a Fry's electronics, which had the inverted look, and I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on with the screen. I made sure to google control+option+command+8 before hitting it though...
- dkarl 17y ago
  Wow, that's neat! Now I'm watching my favorite YouTube cooking videos and pretending I'm a nuclear scientist.
zimbabwe 17y ago
I liked the Ribbon a lot before I got used to the Mac mentality of "reduce buttons at all costs". Ribbons work far better than lots of drop-down menus when you're dealing with something ridiculously complex. OS X used to have an awesome theming app called Shapeshifter, which doesn't yet work for OS X. There was one ultrapervasive theme called Gaia that I've always wanted to play with and couldn't, since I came in on Leopard. Check it out: http://macthemes2.net/2007/08/10/theme-review-gaia/ http://macthemes2.net/2007/08/10/theme-review-gaia/
- varaon 17y ago
  Try Magnifique: http://magnifiqueapp.com/ http://magnifiqueapp.com/ (free)
  - zimbabwe 17y ago
    Excellent! Playing with it now. EDIT: Dammit, its Gaia theme is a third-party remake that's very glitchy. To its credit, it didn't delete system-crucial files when I removed all the testing themes.

bep 17y ago

"I’m slightly amused that there were 8 updates already." There were up to 10 test updates for the RC: http://blogs.technet.com/mu/archive/2009/05/08/upcoming-updates-for-windows-7-rc.aspx http://blogs.technet.com/mu/archive/2009/05/08/upcoming-upda...

msc 17y ago
"First impressions of Windows 7 from a Mac user: * I’m slightly amused that there were 8 updates already." 3 months after buying my first Apple product (MacBook Aluminium), I find out that an old Java vulnerability was still unpatched. They finally patched it, what, a couple of weeks ago? I welcome updates, I don't know what's so amusing.
- zimbabwe 17y ago
  Marco has a tendency to be a snot. He's very bright, writes well, and I usually agree with the basics of what he's saying (in this case, his talk about their overcluttering made me think this was worth a submit), but he frequently sells past an agreeable point.
- froo 17y ago
  I welcome updates, I don't know what's so amusing. Exactly, the update manager in Ubuntu boots up every couple of days for me to make sure my installation is the most up to date possible. Is this the part where Marco starts slagging off Linux too? Updates are good - it shows that someone is taking an active interest in maintaining a stable product and I think it is foolish to present blatant bias here when that aspect of your argument can be easily disproven. Yes, Microsoft is copying Apple - They did it before with the first Windows, they'll more than likely do it again in the future. Get over it fanboys.
  - skalpelis 17y ago
    The Mac software updater actually runs weekly in the background, it just doesn't bother you in case no updates are available.
- 17y ago

taitems 17y ago

It's not often you hear of Microsoft setting design or usability trends, but the Office ribbon has seen a pretty vast uptake. As a UI designer I have personally implemented it in various web apps. I'm looking forward to what Microsoft does next, honestly.

makecheck 17y ago
I know an engineer who was not only frustrated with the ribbon, but actually attributed it to Vista (i.e. to say she "didn't like Vista" when what she described was clearly a feature of Office). I suspect she was just too used to the old way (for better or for worse), but that's still valid. Maybe the ribbon isn't bad, but Microsoft should have introduced it more gradually, e.g. alongside a familiar menu bar instead of replacing the menu bar completely.
- taitems 17y ago
  I won't deny the Microsoft ribbon has a really steep learning curve, but it's valuable even if just to learn how not to design/implement a ribbon. The people that I have met that have difficulty adjusting to the ribbon (my 60 year old father, other 20 year old students etc) have either adjusted to it over time, or simply never made an effort to learn how to use it, and continue to complain about it.
jemmons 17y ago
Why is the ribbon usable? What positive effects have you seen that caused you to implement it in various apps. As a user interface designer, how is the ribbon better than the interface it replaces? I don't doubt what you say, but anecdotal claims are not very interesting -- nor do they convince me I should be awaiting Microsoft's next innovation with baited breath, if that's your intent.
- fatdog789 17y ago
  It's easier to use -- all the buttons visible at any given time are related in some way, so it's easier to find what you're looking for (or conversely, to tell if what you're looking for is not currently visible. It's more amendable to touch-based interfaces. Bigger buttons = more area to click.

drawkbox 17y ago

Windows is dead. I know of no developers using Windows anymore, myself included, except for gaming, visual studio or directx development. Everything programming-wise is nix focused and Mac won because of that. OSX is the perfect *nix backend with usable front end. When you win over the developers, things are gonna change. Developers, developers, devel...

bep 17y ago
The fact that you don't know any developer that is using Windows doesn't mean that is true. The large array of apps that Windows support is still to massive to consider it dead. I know, you could VM everything, but is not practical to do so.
sker 17y ago
I only know developers using Windows. Does that cancels your argument?
- drawkbox 17y ago
  Are they using it for anything other than visual studio? It was a boisterous claim, but there is a movement. Two things I think are causing it... 1) I think though something major happened with the move to intel chips and a nix backend to OSX. Dropping PowerPC and the old Mac OS is something Microsoft couldn't do and now Windows is stuck. 2) Also major market changes that push it that direction. - iPhone/Touch device and market - Dynamic languages like python + ruby and rails/django web frameworks associated with them - XBOX 360 caused people who were windows PC gamers to go console, making the main reason to buy a PC in the past (games) largely moot. - New multi-platform game engines like Unity3D and now that Mac is Intel you can develop for both easily. (unity3d is what initially made me make the switch) - The cloud computing paradigm (yes it is buzz but real) is pretty much not windows based, it pushes cheap nix OSes and a nix based OS as your base is much better. - Distributed source control such as git that weren't and aren't very Windows friendly - Finally good systems, right click, and killer machines (one dude I know has a 30 inch Mac screen and a 32GB 8 processor Pro, it is a monster). These things look like giant iPods now rather than colored beads. - OpenGL is resurging with Khronos support (ES for mobile and all associated libraries) Every developer that I know that has gone that direction has not come back, typically these are talented developers as well and long time windows people (myself included, C++ MFC, MCSD C++, MCSD.NET, .net developer for 8 years, did one of the first public .net sites with Microsoft for a large CPG packaging goods company, game developer on windows) There are more reasons but I see the change, do you? The fact that you can run lots of great tools even Windows within parallels or bootcamp also added to the move. Once you go Mac you never go... Windows will still be needed for development for some time, but all new, fun and multi-platform development it is not required anymore. That being said I have two monster machines, Vista 64bit PC and an iMac and I need and use them both. I can tell you which one is more fun to work on though...

jsz0 17y ago

Anyone who doesn't live in a certain environment can't really give an objective view of these things. We may look at it and say "wow that's annoying" but a long time Windows user may look at it and say "Thank you Microsoft! Thank you for the Updates! I feel so much safer now! Oh and you hide those annoying system tray icons for me too! I LOVE YOU" Long time Windows users will probably be quite happy with Windows 7. For everyone else there are several good alternatives these days.

endtime 17y ago

These thoughts aren't interesting at all. Most of them are smug and vapid. >I'm slightly amused that there were 8 updates already. Why? It's RC software. >There’s an odd dichotomy with using text labels... I actually turned text on in the taskbar, but nevertheless, it's pretty much the same as OS X. Doesn't one typically recognize a program by its icon in both OSes? >The use of color is odd for OS X users. The only place that seems overtly colorful is the login/locked screen. Certainly personal preference; the implied value judgement (that OS X is classy and Win7 is gaudy) is just silly. >It seems like Microsoft is really hammering the Windows branding into your face as frequently as possible. Everything has Windows logos, the Start button’s logo glows eerily on hover, and everything is called Windows-something. Apple is much more subtle and conservative with the use of their name, the Mac name, and their logos. This is just silly. The only place I see the Windows logo is the Start button. And the use of loaded adjectives - "eerily" for Windows, "subtle" and "conservative" for OS X - betrays any objectivity the author might have claimed.

towndrunk 17y ago

Still no system wide spell checking in edit fields. The simple word processor, write.exe doesn't even have spell check after all these years either.