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"1. don't use windows"...I realize how unpopular it is to question the groupthink on this site but this strikes me as simplistic. The public takedowns related t

"1. don't use windows"...I realize how unpopular it is to question the groupthink on this site but this strikes me as simplistic. The public takedowns related to tor have been more about firefox than windows. But I get that Linux fans like to think that this is their sole bailiwick. If you are using tor and you are using a web browser as your primary means of communication AND YOU REQUIRE SAFTEY you have already made a serious mistake. Using a JSON or XML based API would be much safer since you aren't having to trust any level of javascript, css, or html...fetching executable code over the internet from a third party is the ROOT of the problem. It all comes down to what you are trying to do...why are you using tor? who is your adversary? Just using tails or whonix and being super paranoid...because security...is kind of a shit lifestyle decision. It can also lead to a false sense of security.

nilved 13y ago
> The public takedowns related to tor have been more about firefox than windows. But I get that Linux fans like to think that this is their sole bailiwick. It's not exactly fanboyism that makes security-conscious people prefer Linux. In fact, anybody with even a basic understanding of infosec knows that Windows should be considered wide open: Microsoft has backdoors, they give the NSA backdoors, and their code isn't open to peer review. Moreover, the Tor Freedom Host attack only exploited Firefox on Windows. > Just using tails or whonix and being super paranoid...because security...is kind of a shit lifestyle decision. Don't you think this is a little rude? Or even just presumptive?
- dobbsbob 13y ago
  He is right though, FF 0day is probably not expensive regardless of O/S. A life on the run or using multiple safe houses is also a shitty lifestyle when you could just avoid all tracking cookies and executable 3rd party code with a terminal script and not have to wear a fake beard at a different starbucks everday
- blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago
  I love that "Microsoft has backdoors"...no one credible has said that they have proof of that. They give the US Government early access to vulnerability data...they give those updates to several governments and large corporations early as the result of agreements they have made with big customers. They also let these same entities audit the source code for windows. Look it up. If you have the money and its important to you then, yes, you can audit the windows code base. "security-conscious people prefer Linux"...That's kind of a sweeping statement. What does security conscious even mean? To me it sounds like this..."People who talk about security a lot use Linux by and large"..."but some of them are really partial to OpenBSD"..."and lots of Windows security experts really use Windows a lot." I say that its a shit lifestyle decision because what is it accomplishing? You use this really restricted platform to make sure that people can't track you doing ??? What exactly? Communicating with your team of spy's??? Downloading midget porn??? Why do you think that you can have a single workstation that's good for every security corner case? What in the history of computer security makes you think that is a good idea or even desirable? Let's take the example of the Iranian dissident trying to avoid the oppressive badies in their weird ass government...what does tails or Linux buy you? You are better off with the "throw away laptop" plan using good opsec and running tor from public places. Don't use it for anything but tor and tweeting your pics of black helmeted assholes. Get a new one as soon as possible. Rotate them with other people. The OS means next to nothing. People keep conflating tor's uses with every possible InfoSec edge case. The dissident has different needs than a guy trying to make sure that the NSA doesn't catch him posting documents. The whistleblower has different needs than the guy buying drugs. In all cases applying some critical thinking about what you are trying to do is a bigger exercise than "Winblows is the suxor at securitehz!" Unix doesn't have a monopoly on security. I'm not saying windows does, but Unix people are kind of crazy about their pet platform.
  - foodbarf 13y ago
    Microsoft employee, pls leave.
    - jagermo 13y ago
      ah, come on. If someone comes up with "Microsoft has backdoors", you can always counter with "the NSA developed SELinux". Still, how many articles, strike that, theories did you read, that SELinux might not be as SE as "they" say? Just because someone points out a flaw, he is not (necessarily) an employee who wants to discredit the argument.
wcummings 13y ago
>"1. don't use windows"...I realize how unpopular it is to question the groupthink on this site but this strikes me as simplistic. The public takedowns related to tor have been more about firefox than windows. But I get that Linux fans like to think that this is their sole bailiwick. The OS provides a number of security mechanisms which make exploitation harder, Windows' reputation for security (or lack thereof) is somewhat well-deserved, ask anyone who has done exploit R&D. Even if you have an FF 0day, you still need to be able to weaponize it, bypass ASLR/DEP/etc and this may be more or less difficult depending on the target OS
- blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago
  Windows has DEP and ASLR. They are actually pretty much on par with each other from a TLA standpoint. There are configuration issues that affect security that should be taken into account if you have high security needs. Its not a capabilities issue.
  - wcummings 13y ago
    Does Windows enforce ASLR on every process now? You only need one non-ASLR library to leverage with ROP. Though, you could say this falls under configuration (and I'm pretty sure the vsyscall table on x86_64 linux is still non-ASLR and that seems like a pretty trivial source of ROP gadgets), but I guess my point is its not as simple as supporting ASLR, not all implementations are created equal.
    - blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago
      Not all implementations are created equal. I will cede that point. And you're right, I would call that configuration.
  - Torgo 13y ago
    Is there any equivalent of AppArmor on Windows? You can lock down the capabilities of an app pretty hardcore on Linux.

nilved 13y ago

> The public takedowns related to tor have been more about firefox than windows. But I get that Linux fans like to think that this is their sole bailiwick. It's not exactly fanboyism that makes security-conscious people prefer Linux. In fact, anybody with even a basic understanding of infosec knows that Windows should be considered wide open: Microsoft has backdoors, they give the NSA backdoors, and their code isn't open to peer review. Moreover, the Tor Freedom Host attack only exploited Firefox on Windows. > Just using tails or whonix and being super paranoid...because security...is kind of a shit lifestyle decision. Don't you think this is a little rude? Or even just presumptive?

dobbsbob 13y ago
He is right though, FF 0day is probably not expensive regardless of O/S. A life on the run or using multiple safe houses is also a shitty lifestyle when you could just avoid all tracking cookies and executable 3rd party code with a terminal script and not have to wear a fake beard at a different starbucks everday
blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago
I love that "Microsoft has backdoors"...no one credible has said that they have proof of that. They give the US Government early access to vulnerability data...they give those updates to several governments and large corporations early as the result of agreements they have made with big customers. They also let these same entities audit the source code for windows. Look it up. If you have the money and its important to you then, yes, you can audit the windows code base. "security-conscious people prefer Linux"...That's kind of a sweeping statement. What does security conscious even mean? To me it sounds like this..."People who talk about security a lot use Linux by and large"..."but some of them are really partial to OpenBSD"..."and lots of Windows security experts really use Windows a lot." I say that its a shit lifestyle decision because what is it accomplishing? You use this really restricted platform to make sure that people can't track you doing ??? What exactly? Communicating with your team of spy's??? Downloading midget porn??? Why do you think that you can have a single workstation that's good for every security corner case? What in the history of computer security makes you think that is a good idea or even desirable? Let's take the example of the Iranian dissident trying to avoid the oppressive badies in their weird ass government...what does tails or Linux buy you? You are better off with the "throw away laptop" plan using good opsec and running tor from public places. Don't use it for anything but tor and tweeting your pics of black helmeted assholes. Get a new one as soon as possible. Rotate them with other people. The OS means next to nothing. People keep conflating tor's uses with every possible InfoSec edge case. The dissident has different needs than a guy trying to make sure that the NSA doesn't catch him posting documents. The whistleblower has different needs than the guy buying drugs. In all cases applying some critical thinking about what you are trying to do is a bigger exercise than "Winblows is the suxor at securitehz!" Unix doesn't have a monopoly on security. I'm not saying windows does, but Unix people are kind of crazy about their pet platform.
- foodbarf 13y ago
  Microsoft employee, pls leave.
  - jagermo 13y ago
    ah, come on. If someone comes up with "Microsoft has backdoors", you can always counter with "the NSA developed SELinux". Still, how many articles, strike that, theories did you read, that SELinux might not be as SE as "they" say? Just because someone points out a flaw, he is not (necessarily) an employee who wants to discredit the argument.

wcummings 13y ago

>"1. don't use windows"...I realize how unpopular it is to question the groupthink on this site but this strikes me as simplistic. The public takedowns related to tor have been more about firefox than windows. But I get that Linux fans like to think that this is their sole bailiwick. The OS provides a number of security mechanisms which make exploitation harder, Windows' reputation for security (or lack thereof) is somewhat well-deserved, ask anyone who has done exploit R&D. Even if you have an FF 0day, you still need to be able to weaponize it, bypass ASLR/DEP/etc and this may be more or less difficult depending on the target OS

blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago
Windows has DEP and ASLR. They are actually pretty much on par with each other from a TLA standpoint. There are configuration issues that affect security that should be taken into account if you have high security needs. Its not a capabilities issue.
- wcummings 13y ago
  Does Windows enforce ASLR on every process now? You only need one non-ASLR library to leverage with ROP. Though, you could say this falls under configuration (and I'm pretty sure the vsyscall table on x86_64 linux is still non-ASLR and that seems like a pretty trivial source of ROP gadgets), but I guess my point is its not as simple as supporting ASLR, not all implementations are created equal.
  - blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago
    Not all implementations are created equal. I will cede that point. And you're right, I would call that configuration.
- Torgo 13y ago
  Is there any equivalent of AppArmor on Windows? You can lock down the capabilities of an app pretty hardcore on Linux.