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I will continue to refuse to believe American military personnel choose to strike otherwise-collateral civilian targets. You're talking about moral humans, her

I will continue to refuse to believe American military personnel choose to strike otherwise-collateral civilian targets. You're talking about moral humans, here. Our soldiers/airmen/marines/sailors are not soulless automatons, nor are officers that develop strategy and provide direction. Nor would I consider their pay to be either incentive or motivation.

brazzy 13y ago
You must have been very busy ignoring a lot of evidence then. Not that that's unusual.
- gaius 13y ago
  They didn't choose to strike civilian targets. They played Xbox, high-fived then went home to their nice lives. That is why drone warfare is so terrifying. It makes evil into something banal.
pygy_ 13y ago
> You're talking about moral humans, here. I'm sorry to break it to you, but there are immoral individuals in the US army, especially in the high ranks (where sociopath usually meet), like everywhere else.
lostlogin 13y ago
What does your first sentence mean? Otherwise-collateral civilian targets? Let's say for arguments sake that no civilians were intentionally targeted. Why is it ok to kill civilians at all? And what civilian death rate is acceptable to you?
FedRegister 13y ago
Then you're a fool. Operation Northwoods[1] talked about killing American civilians on American soil. It had the backing of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the CIA, and the Secretary of Defense. So let's not think that there isn't precedent. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
bluecalm 13y ago
For once there are a lot of unethical humans as other posters point out but it really doesn't matter. The actions to kill people are often result of many relatively innocent decisions: increase funding here, agree to some military testing there, give a bit more secrecy to some people, some more decision making power to others, write some more allowing, aggressive sounding policies and suddenly everybody does what's "necessary" and people are killed. If incentives are in place, nature will find the way even if you can't point to one single person who actually pulled the trigger.
baddox 13y ago
If only we lived in a world where refusal to believe a fact changed the reality of that fact.
lolbertarian 13y ago
http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-pilot-assassination http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-... Read this. Follow orders or get court marshalled. Its no surprise that after objections from pilots that they started singling out people who didn't give a shit about things like ethical objectives other than shooting their target accurately.
justin66 13y ago
Do they escape culpability if they do not ever choose to intentionally "strike otherwise-collateral civilian targets" but instead choose to take part in a process where there's a known error rate, and a certain amount of collateral damage will happen no matter what the intentions are? A choice is being made in either case. Innocent people are being killed in either case.
Coincoin 13y ago
Go watch one of those helicopter/drone/warthog strike video and listen to the guys talk. There is no compassion, no remorse, nothing. They are kids playing a video game, chuckles and trash talk included. If they could teabag them, they would.

brazzy 13y ago

You must have been very busy ignoring a lot of evidence then. Not that that's unusual.

gaius 13y ago
They didn't choose to strike civilian targets. They played Xbox, high-fived then went home to their nice lives. That is why drone warfare is so terrifying. It makes evil into something banal.

pygy_ 13y ago

> You're talking about moral humans, here. I'm sorry to break it to you, but there are immoral individuals in the US army, especially in the high ranks (where sociopath usually meet), like everywhere else.

lostlogin 13y ago

What does your first sentence mean? Otherwise-collateral civilian targets? Let's say for arguments sake that no civilians were intentionally targeted. Why is it ok to kill civilians at all? And what civilian death rate is acceptable to you?

FedRegister 13y ago

Then you're a fool. Operation Northwoods[1] talked about killing American civilians on American soil. It had the backing of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the CIA, and the Secretary of Defense. So let's not think that there isn't precedent. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

bluecalm 13y ago

For once there are a lot of unethical humans as other posters point out but it really doesn't matter. The actions to kill people are often result of many relatively innocent decisions: increase funding here, agree to some military testing there, give a bit more secrecy to some people, some more decision making power to others, write some more allowing, aggressive sounding policies and suddenly everybody does what's "necessary" and people are killed. If incentives are in place, nature will find the way even if you can't point to one single person who actually pulled the trigger.

baddox 13y ago

If only we lived in a world where refusal to believe a fact changed the reality of that fact.

lolbertarian 13y ago

http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-pilot-assassination http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-... Read this. Follow orders or get court marshalled. Its no surprise that after objections from pilots that they started singling out people who didn't give a shit about things like ethical objectives other than shooting their target accurately.

justin66 13y ago

Do they escape culpability if they do not ever choose to intentionally "strike otherwise-collateral civilian targets" but instead choose to take part in a process where there's a known error rate, and a certain amount of collateral damage will happen no matter what the intentions are? A choice is being made in either case. Innocent people are being killed in either case.

Coincoin 13y ago

Go watch one of those helicopter/drone/warthog strike video and listen to the guys talk. There is no compassion, no remorse, nothing. They are kids playing a video game, chuckles and trash talk included. If they could teabag them, they would.