7 ms·

Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

85 points by nexttimer 13y ago

nexttimer 13y ago
In plain English, this NSA is saying: "If we 'consider' this, it's because the most important information is still not out there, yet." So it's basically counter-productive, unless your goal is to get the public behind the NSA in order to hang Snowden one way or the other.
- rhizome 13y ago
  unless your goal is to get the public behind the NSA in order to hang Snowden one way or the other My opinion is that this is exactly it. Once Snowden is here, the "amnesty" will end just as soon as they can hang a false statements charge on him, then parade him in handcuffs or on trial to discredit everything associated with him, including Greenwald et al stories, after which they can continue their business as usual. Make no mistake that Clapper, Alexander and Holder would LOVE to make a Rosenberg out of him.
venomsnake 13y ago
Snowden cannot possibly stop leaking the information. It is in journalists' hands already.
mtgx 13y ago
Is Alexander seriously comparing this to him taking 50 hostages and then killing 10 people? And this is the same Alexander who helps CIA kill that many people per day with his mass surveillance and "signature drone strikes" - right? Just checking to see if he's the right guy to question Snowden's morals.
- JanezStupar 13y ago
  Alexander is not killing anyone. He is a bureaucrat and this is just the kind of stuff they say.
  - Tloewald 13y ago
    Ever seen the monty python sketch where hitler, goebbels, etc. are put on trial and their defense is, basically, "we didn't kill anyone, we only gave the orders" Sorry, i do not mean to compare alexander to a nazi, i'm just ridiculing the idea that the head of the nsa, a general, is merely a bureaucrat.
    - JanezStupar 13y ago
      I think that WW1 was such a mess precisely because the generals on all sides were mostly aristocratic bureaucrats.
      - Tloewald 13y ago
        Generals are always to some extent bureaucrats (how did we get to WWI?) but they're bureaucrats in a military organization who give orders that directly result in people being killed.
- joezydeco 13y ago
  No, you read the analogy wrong. Alexander is saying "He's already committed a crime and is promising to do another. How do we give him a free pass on the first crime if he promises not to do the second?"
  - asn0 13y ago
    I can't get past the irony of Alexander's moral indignation.
JanezStupar 13y ago
Is NSA going through 5 stages of grief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model#Stages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model#Stages)? Reading this article seems like this is making me feel like they are at stage 3.
midnitewarrior 13y ago
If Snowden takes the deal, then he looks like the guy they are trying to paint him to be - a traitor that can't stomach permanent exile. If he takes the deal unconditionally, he will have accomplished nothing other than isolate the United States from the rest of the world. Laws will not change, the people will not gain control of its government's activities. Snowden can take the deal under one condition only - and that is that the NSA stops their improper practices under the supervision of Snowden. Of course, this will never happen. Any interest Snowden expresses in a NSA deal will only be used to discredit him.
- leokun 13y ago
  He's already said he would return if granted amnesty. I agree with nothing you've said.
wil421 13y ago
This is so stupid. Snowden hasnt leaked documents since he initially gave it to the first few reporters. Those reporters have stated from the beginning it was in their hands now to determine what is reported to the public. > This is analogous to a hostage taker taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10, and then say, 'if you give me full amnesty, I'll let the other 40 go'. What do you do? That is absolutely absurd. No lives are put in harms way like they could've been with the unredatcted wikileaks data. I believe the reporters are being cautious on what type of data they post.
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  on the crappy analogy: Additionally, this is an NSA official 'suggesting' an amnesty, not Snowden demanding one as ransom.
- Spooky23 13y ago
  You're being naive. This implies three possibilities in my mind: they either (a) figured out what he is holding back as "insurance", or (b) were unable to figure out what he was doing, or (c) it's a ploy to flush him out. Either way, the fact that these guys put this together and did the good cop/bad cop routine on TV in itself is very telling. Looks like fear to me -- my question is, after all of the stuff released to date, what are these guys afraid of? The other question this brings up is what is Snowden really up to?
- drzaiusapelord 13y ago
  What exactly determine's the press's release schedule? Ratings? Milking? Ad conversation stats? No idea why everything hasn't been released yet. It also isn't bulk data like the wikileaks fiasco. Looks like NSA program specs. Redaction can't be taking this long. Funny how Snowden is now caught between a dictator in Russia and the Western for-profit press. Probably not a good place to be. I imagine he's smart enough to have an "insurance" file which means we'll never see the real dirt on the NSA.
  - ds9 13y ago
    The slow release schedule keeps the info in the news throughout the series. If it were dumped all at once, it would be "forgotten" by mainstream media by the time writers would have time to sort thru it.
dobbsbob 13y ago
Snowden has 'insurance' that will leak if they kill him and they probably figured out what it was and would like it back. Most likely plans to the NSA death star
- kevando 13y ago
  Where have you heard this?
  - dobbsbob 13y ago
    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9AO0Y120131125?irpc=932 http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9AO0Y120131125?irpc... Also just because the NSA gives snowden amnesty doesn't mean UK won't extradite him for espionage. I'm sure they will play that game to jail him some how for life
Havoc 13y ago
This just comes across as weak/desperate on the NSA's side. If I were him I'd tell the US to shove it. They made him intentionally stateless and pressured other nations to make seeking asylum difficult - that to me is a low blow when it comes to treating whistle-blowers - even by US standards.
- Shivetya 13y ago
  This is nothing more than a trial balloon floated by someone in the administration. They want to gauge public opinion. Frankly it would be stupid to grant him amnesty because it will pretty much open the door to copy cats. They can simply wait him out, Russia only does this when it has value on the international stage, its quite evident Putin has little respect for the President.
  - Havoc 13y ago
    >Frankly it would be stupid to grant him amnesty Not so sure. Remember the article 2/3 days back about how the NSA has no real idea exactly what kind of info he has. This move strikes me as a shallow attempt at damage control. Or more accurately an NSA person thinking "lets rather not find out how deep this goes". Regarding Putin - yes no doubt its a pure PR exercise but I'm thankful that there is some kind of force to balance it in this case. As I said, a nation using citizenship & asylum interference to specifically target one person is deeply immoral in my books. If Putin is the one calling them out on that sht then so be it.
spodek 13y ago
> The US National Security Agency is considering offering an amnesty to fugitive intelligence contractor Edward Snowden if he agrees to stop leaking secret documents, an NSA official says. That means as bad for the NSA as giving amnesty would be, they consider remaining documents worse. That means however bad you've found the revelations so far, expect worse to come. As for Snowden, I presume he's smart enough to realize amnesty from the NSA leaves dozens of other government entities or just angry people to get him, whether legally or illegally, who already flout the Constitution, lie, illegally detain and send people to countries that torture, etc.
- mathattack 13y ago
  I was thinking the same thing. He has to really have something awful on them - something so bad that they'd eat a ton of crow over it, and possibly lose their jobs over it. But it's still worth keeping under wraps. The conspiracy theorist in me wishes that the X-files would do a movie on it, as we'd solve JFK and the aliens all in one wrap.
- dopamean 13y ago
  How does the NSA offer amnesty anyway? Is it not the Justice Department that would bring charges in this situation? It's like the family of a murder victim offering amnesty to the murderer... it's not really up to them.
  - sneak 13y ago
    By that logic, James Clapper would be charged for lying to congress by now. "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
    - freerobby 13y ago
      What makes you think the Justice Department wants to go after Clapper?
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
Tosh108 13y ago
I'm not an expert on US law. But why does the NSA have the authority to grand amnesty?
- sneak 13y ago
  The same way they have the authority to tap everyone's phones: they are one and the same with the unchecked military power of the United States with carte blanche to di whatever they want from spy on ex-lovers, to imprison people in solitary for years before trial, to lie openly to congress without repercussions.
sneak 13y ago
There will be no deal for Snowden. The headline is vastly misleading.
mattgibson 13y ago
That's a pretty extreme step. Given that there have been stories saying that the NSA have not been able to work out exactly what he took from them, this implies that they are afraid of what he has yet to reveal. We know that he deliberately didn't release material that was specifically going to endanger individuals or operations and that newspapers have been even more careful to only reveal generalities. This suggests that there is no need for the NSA to worry about stuff that is not suitable for publication. Which implies that there are other stories which are a really big deal, which both he and newspapers would be happy to publish, but which they have not published yet. But what? I can't imagine what else they could've been up to on top of what we've learnt. Maybe I just have incredulity burnout.
- kbenson 13y ago
  I imagine the NSA also looks quite extensively at worst case scenarios. Without knowledge of what he has, assuming he has some fairly damaging material he has not seem disposed towards revealing (ignoring the even possibility he has even more damning material he is willing to release), they still have to worry about future changes in his reasoning on what's acceptable to release, and third parties without such compunctions (or evenmies) getting access to the data in some manner. With that in mind, the best manner to recover the data completely and securely may be to get him back on their side.
kordless 13y ago
> "This is analogous to a hostage taker taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10, and then say, 'if you give me full amnesty, I'll let the other 40 go'." No. This is analogous to YOU taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10 of them, and then someone coming to you and telling you to stop shooting people or they are going to tell on you if you don't release the rest of the hostages. > What do you do? You let your hostages go.
- fit2rule 13y ago
  Damn straight! NEVER forget that people like Alexander are professional murderers, liars, and plain: THUGS. They have been in the business of oppressing their fellow human beings for decades. They are masters at owning the battlefield - which means they will frame their argument in the very substance of the TRUTH, twisting it to suit their intended purpose - in this case, to gain lost ground in the "honor" and "righteousness" department - two vile substances which propel many a killing, murdering, destruction machine. Turn the table back on Alexander, always. Whenever he is given credence as the victor in the moral argument, remind the victim of his propaganda that they are responsible for the continued actions of this government if they agree with its statement, its message, and its positions on its crimes against humanity. Until Americans realize they ARE responsible for the machine they have created, and under whose labour they live their very protected lives, we will get no true change.
FreeKin256 13y ago
Sounds like they are attempting to make the conditions of Mr Snowden's asylum in Russia null as he will "no longer be under threat" back in the US.
dregstudios 13y ago
The dystopian fantasies of yesteryear are now a reality. We’ve allowed the coming of an age where the civil liberties our forefathers fought so hard for are being eroded by the day. Freedom of Press, Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly are mere ghostly images of their original intent. We’ve woken up to an Orwellian Society of Fear where anyone is at the mercy of being labeled a terrorist for standing up for rights we took for granted just over a decade ago. Read about how we’re waging war against ourselves at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2011/09/living-in-society-of-fear-ten-years.html http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2011/09/living-in-society...

85 points by nexttimer 13y ago

In plain English, this NSA is saying: "If we 'consider' this, it's because the most important information is still not out there, yet." So it's basically counter-productive, unless your goal is to get the public behind the NSA in order to hang Snowden one way or the other.

rhizome 13y ago
unless your goal is to get the public behind the NSA in order to hang Snowden one way or the other My opinion is that this is exactly it. Once Snowden is here, the "amnesty" will end just as soon as they can hang a false statements charge on him, then parade him in handcuffs or on trial to discredit everything associated with him, including Greenwald et al stories, after which they can continue their business as usual. Make no mistake that Clapper, Alexander and Holder would LOVE to make a Rosenberg out of him.

venomsnake 13y ago

Snowden cannot possibly stop leaking the information. It is in journalists' hands already.

mtgx 13y ago

Is Alexander seriously comparing this to him taking 50 hostages and then killing 10 people? And this is the same Alexander who helps CIA kill that many people per day with his mass surveillance and "signature drone strikes" - right? Just checking to see if he's the right guy to question Snowden's morals.

JanezStupar 13y ago
Alexander is not killing anyone. He is a bureaucrat and this is just the kind of stuff they say.
- Tloewald 13y ago
  Ever seen the monty python sketch where hitler, goebbels, etc. are put on trial and their defense is, basically, "we didn't kill anyone, we only gave the orders" Sorry, i do not mean to compare alexander to a nazi, i'm just ridiculing the idea that the head of the nsa, a general, is merely a bureaucrat.
  - JanezStupar 13y ago
    I think that WW1 was such a mess precisely because the generals on all sides were mostly aristocratic bureaucrats.
    - Tloewald 13y ago
      Generals are always to some extent bureaucrats (how did we get to WWI?) but they're bureaucrats in a military organization who give orders that directly result in people being killed.
joezydeco 13y ago
No, you read the analogy wrong. Alexander is saying "He's already committed a crime and is promising to do another. How do we give him a free pass on the first crime if he promises not to do the second?"
- asn0 13y ago
  I can't get past the irony of Alexander's moral indignation.

JanezStupar 13y ago

Is NSA going through 5 stages of grief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model#Stages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model#Stages)? Reading this article seems like this is making me feel like they are at stage 3.

midnitewarrior 13y ago

If Snowden takes the deal, then he looks like the guy they are trying to paint him to be - a traitor that can't stomach permanent exile. If he takes the deal unconditionally, he will have accomplished nothing other than isolate the United States from the rest of the world. Laws will not change, the people will not gain control of its government's activities. Snowden can take the deal under one condition only - and that is that the NSA stops their improper practices under the supervision of Snowden. Of course, this will never happen. Any interest Snowden expresses in a NSA deal will only be used to discredit him.

leokun 13y ago
He's already said he would return if granted amnesty. I agree with nothing you've said.

wil421 13y ago

This is so stupid. Snowden hasnt leaked documents since he initially gave it to the first few reporters. Those reporters have stated from the beginning it was in their hands now to determine what is reported to the public. > This is analogous to a hostage taker taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10, and then say, 'if you give me full amnesty, I'll let the other 40 go'. What do you do? That is absolutely absurd. No lives are put in harms way like they could've been with the unredatcted wikileaks data. I believe the reporters are being cautious on what type of data they post.

tehwalrus 13y ago
on the crappy analogy: Additionally, this is an NSA official 'suggesting' an amnesty, not Snowden demanding one as ransom.
Spooky23 13y ago
You're being naive. This implies three possibilities in my mind: they either (a) figured out what he is holding back as "insurance", or (b) were unable to figure out what he was doing, or (c) it's a ploy to flush him out. Either way, the fact that these guys put this together and did the good cop/bad cop routine on TV in itself is very telling. Looks like fear to me -- my question is, after all of the stuff released to date, what are these guys afraid of? The other question this brings up is what is Snowden really up to?
drzaiusapelord 13y ago
What exactly determine's the press's release schedule? Ratings? Milking? Ad conversation stats? No idea why everything hasn't been released yet. It also isn't bulk data like the wikileaks fiasco. Looks like NSA program specs. Redaction can't be taking this long. Funny how Snowden is now caught between a dictator in Russia and the Western for-profit press. Probably not a good place to be. I imagine he's smart enough to have an "insurance" file which means we'll never see the real dirt on the NSA.
- ds9 13y ago
  The slow release schedule keeps the info in the news throughout the series. If it were dumped all at once, it would be "forgotten" by mainstream media by the time writers would have time to sort thru it.

dobbsbob 13y ago

Snowden has 'insurance' that will leak if they kill him and they probably figured out what it was and would like it back. Most likely plans to the NSA death star

kevando 13y ago
Where have you heard this?
- dobbsbob 13y ago
  http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9AO0Y120131125?irpc=932 http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9AO0Y120131125?irpc... Also just because the NSA gives snowden amnesty doesn't mean UK won't extradite him for espionage. I'm sure they will play that game to jail him some how for life

Havoc 13y ago

This just comes across as weak/desperate on the NSA's side. If I were him I'd tell the US to shove it. They made him intentionally stateless and pressured other nations to make seeking asylum difficult - that to me is a low blow when it comes to treating whistle-blowers - even by US standards.

Shivetya 13y ago
This is nothing more than a trial balloon floated by someone in the administration. They want to gauge public opinion. Frankly it would be stupid to grant him amnesty because it will pretty much open the door to copy cats. They can simply wait him out, Russia only does this when it has value on the international stage, its quite evident Putin has little respect for the President.
- Havoc 13y ago
  >Frankly it would be stupid to grant him amnesty Not so sure. Remember the article 2/3 days back about how the NSA has no real idea exactly what kind of info he has. This move strikes me as a shallow attempt at damage control. Or more accurately an NSA person thinking "lets rather not find out how deep this goes". Regarding Putin - yes no doubt its a pure PR exercise but I'm thankful that there is some kind of force to balance it in this case. As I said, a nation using citizenship & asylum interference to specifically target one person is deeply immoral in my books. If Putin is the one calling them out on that sht then so be it.

spodek 13y ago

> The US National Security Agency is considering offering an amnesty to fugitive intelligence contractor Edward Snowden if he agrees to stop leaking secret documents, an NSA official says. That means as bad for the NSA as giving amnesty would be, they consider remaining documents worse. That means however bad you've found the revelations so far, expect worse to come. As for Snowden, I presume he's smart enough to realize amnesty from the NSA leaves dozens of other government entities or just angry people to get him, whether legally or illegally, who already flout the Constitution, lie, illegally detain and send people to countries that torture, etc.

mathattack 13y ago
I was thinking the same thing. He has to really have something awful on them - something so bad that they'd eat a ton of crow over it, and possibly lose their jobs over it. But it's still worth keeping under wraps. The conspiracy theorist in me wishes that the X-files would do a movie on it, as we'd solve JFK and the aliens all in one wrap.
dopamean 13y ago
How does the NSA offer amnesty anyway? Is it not the Justice Department that would bring charges in this situation? It's like the family of a murder victim offering amnesty to the murderer... it's not really up to them.
- sneak 13y ago
  By that logic, James Clapper would be charged for lying to congress by now. "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
  - freerobby 13y ago
    What makes you think the Justice Department wants to go after Clapper?
- dragonwriter 13y ago

Tosh108 13y ago

I'm not an expert on US law. But why does the NSA have the authority to grand amnesty?

sneak 13y ago
The same way they have the authority to tap everyone's phones: they are one and the same with the unchecked military power of the United States with carte blanche to di whatever they want from spy on ex-lovers, to imprison people in solitary for years before trial, to lie openly to congress without repercussions.

sneak 13y ago

There will be no deal for Snowden. The headline is vastly misleading.

mattgibson 13y ago

That's a pretty extreme step. Given that there have been stories saying that the NSA have not been able to work out exactly what he took from them, this implies that they are afraid of what he has yet to reveal. We know that he deliberately didn't release material that was specifically going to endanger individuals or operations and that newspapers have been even more careful to only reveal generalities. This suggests that there is no need for the NSA to worry about stuff that is not suitable for publication. Which implies that there are other stories which are a really big deal, which both he and newspapers would be happy to publish, but which they have not published yet. But what? I can't imagine what else they could've been up to on top of what we've learnt. Maybe I just have incredulity burnout.

kbenson 13y ago
I imagine the NSA also looks quite extensively at worst case scenarios. Without knowledge of what he has, assuming he has some fairly damaging material he has not seem disposed towards revealing (ignoring the even possibility he has even more damning material he is willing to release), they still have to worry about future changes in his reasoning on what's acceptable to release, and third parties without such compunctions (or evenmies) getting access to the data in some manner. With that in mind, the best manner to recover the data completely and securely may be to get him back on their side.

kordless 13y ago

> "This is analogous to a hostage taker taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10, and then say, 'if you give me full amnesty, I'll let the other 40 go'." No. This is analogous to YOU taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10 of them, and then someone coming to you and telling you to stop shooting people or they are going to tell on you if you don't release the rest of the hostages. > What do you do? You let your hostages go.

fit2rule 13y ago
Damn straight! NEVER forget that people like Alexander are professional murderers, liars, and plain: THUGS. They have been in the business of oppressing their fellow human beings for decades. They are masters at owning the battlefield - which means they will frame their argument in the very substance of the TRUTH, twisting it to suit their intended purpose - in this case, to gain lost ground in the "honor" and "righteousness" department - two vile substances which propel many a killing, murdering, destruction machine. Turn the table back on Alexander, always. Whenever he is given credence as the victor in the moral argument, remind the victim of his propaganda that they are responsible for the continued actions of this government if they agree with its statement, its message, and its positions on its crimes against humanity. Until Americans realize they ARE responsible for the machine they have created, and under whose labour they live their very protected lives, we will get no true change.

FreeKin256 13y ago

Sounds like they are attempting to make the conditions of Mr Snowden's asylum in Russia null as he will "no longer be under threat" back in the US.

dregstudios 13y ago

The dystopian fantasies of yesteryear are now a reality. We’ve allowed the coming of an age where the civil liberties our forefathers fought so hard for are being eroded by the day. Freedom of Press, Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly are mere ghostly images of their original intent. We’ve woken up to an Orwellian Society of Fear where anyone is at the mercy of being labeled a terrorist for standing up for rights we took for granted just over a decade ago. Read about how we’re waging war against ourselves at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2011/09/living-in-society-of-fear-ten-years.html http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2011/09/living-in-society...