11 ms·

Prototype ergonomic mechanical keyboards

227 points by obrajesse 13y ago

X4 13y ago
A list of all kinds of keyboards: http://asanisembiring.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/ http://asanisembiring.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/ I think the SenseBoard Keyboard is the best amongst these.
tlarkworthy 13y ago
put a trackball in the middle near the thumbs, that switch to mouse control from keyboard kills me
- obrajesse 13y ago
  That's what the Maltron does. I don't find it all that comfortable. I've actually got something better up my sleeve, but I'm still working on sourcing the parts.
  - gojomo 13y ago
    Is 'up my sleeve' also a hint about where the pointing-device interfaces with the body?
    - obrajesse 13y ago
      Heh. Thankfully, no. I was really hopeful that the Leap Motion was going to be 'the right thing', but I'm pretty sure that anything that requires you to move your wrist to use is going to be a lose. I'm not 100% sure we're going to get a pointing device into the v1 product. I'd rather ship a good keyboard than not ship a better keyboard.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - TylerE 13y ago
        Old school IBM nipple mouse?
        obrajesse 13y ago
        Not sayin', but you're getting warmer.
        wting 13y ago
        This line has me more excited over everything else. I can't wait for a mechanical keyboard with a trackpoint like device. I'm a big fan of Thinkpad keyboards and have a few USB versions, but finally switched to mechanical keyboards 6 months ago. I still miss the Trackpoint daily though...
        snogglethorpe 13y ago
        I've seen a trackpoint- (or some equivalent eraserhead pointer thingy) bearing keyboard with cherry (blue?) switches in the store, but it was a bit too "maximal" for my taste (numpad, lots of function keys etc).
        obrajesse 13y ago
        Really? Do you remember which store or which brand? I can't think of any current keyboard with Cherry switches and a trackpoint.
        snogglethorpe 13y ago
        Don't remember the brand. It was in the "LABI Shibuya" store in Tokyo (Shibuya of course), in the keyboard section: https://goo.gl/maps/o4wm1 https://goo.gl/maps/o4wm1 I noticed that the shelf tags for keyboards in this store all made a point of mentioning the key-switches used, so it's clearly a selling point even in a relatively mass-market store...
        obrajesse 13y ago
  - tlarkworthy 13y ago
    what you got so far looks pretty hot. I await in anticipation!
    - obrajesse 13y ago
      Thanks! I'm pretty excited.
  - cgh 13y ago
    Which switches do you plan to use? Really like the sounds of this (I read your entire page, sorry to hear about your printer catching on fire!). I looked for an ergo mechanical keyboard but couldn't find one to my liking so ended up with a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue switches. Really love it except for the whole lack of ergonomics thing. The Cherry Blues are fantastic.
    - meowface 13y ago
      I have the exact same keyboard (Majestouch, with Cherry Blues). Been using it for the past few years, and I love it. Do ergonomic keyboards allow you to type faster? Or do they just let you rest your hands more naturally?
      - obrajesse 13y ago
        That is a matter of some debate. Even in the scientific literature. But I do know that when it hurts less for me to type, I can type for longer stretches. And that's way more important to me than typing faster.
      - cgh 13y ago
        I have bad elbow issues and ergo keyboards help somewhat.
    - obrajesse 13y ago
      It'll be Cherry switches. Depending on who we end up with for a manufacturing partner, we may be able to offer a wide variety of switch options. If we can only pick one, I'd probably run with Cherry Browns. They feel a lot like the Blues, but won't piss off the people sitting around you.
      - grosskur 13y ago
        What do you think about low force microswitches? Would you consider them for a future model? http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitch/ http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitch/
- egh 13y ago
  unicomp sell the endurapro, basically a model m with a trackpoint.
  - wiredfool 13y ago
    OMG. I've been waiting for them to do this for forever. I've got a pair of M13s, neither of which is totally functional anymore. I never realized how much I used the trackpoint until I had to switch to the one where it wasn't working.
    - egh 13y ago
      I've had mine for a couple years. The trackpoint is not as good as the one on my lenovo, but it works and saves me from reaching for the trackball 95% of the time.
kross 13y ago
How is this better or worse than the Kinesis contoured keyboard? I've been using one for more than 10 years.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  I think the thumb layout is more comfortable and easier to use. Kinesis users I've put in front of my prototypes come up to speed pretty quickly. Non-kinesis users seem to come up to speed a lot faster than they do when confronted with the kinesis' bowls. Also, it's a lot more portable. And it's really, really fully programmable.
- tomlu 13y ago
  I have a Kinesis, and the trouble I found with these were that they are raised too far above the table surface which causes neck strain for me. I have had better luck with the Truly Ergonomic but this looks even better!
efnx 13y ago
I swear by my datahands.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  The Datahand is awesome. It does a lot of stuff very, very right. I was never really able to get up to speed on mine. There's actually a hobbyist project to reproduce the Datahand right now over at geekhack.org
  - efnx 13y ago
    I'm in contact with olddatahands who started the project. I'll be helping in any way I can. Datahands take some commitment, but they pay off big time. It took me about 3 weeks of using them at work before I became comfortable. I'm sure if I started learning to type on dvorak that would be lessened - I went all in and switched to the dvorak datahands and now I can't type on regular keyboards at all. They at least have to be dvorak.
    - obrajesse 13y ago
      Awesome. I'm looking forward to it.
- daeken 13y ago
  I really wish Datahands were available for purchase. No one gets rid of them, and they aren't produced anymore (I tried emailing them numerous times before their site disappeared -- nothing). If anyone wants to sell a set, I'm buying!
  - ne0phyte 13y ago
    Good luck with that. Depending on the condition they go $1500-2000+ on eBay these days.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
daragh 13y ago
I'm currently awaiting delivery of components to assemble an ErgoDox. The later variations show here display an encouraging similarity to a lot of the ErgoDox's features, although perhaps most interestingly a move away from independent positioning of the two halves.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  Actually, I _started_ from an ErgoDox. :) ( http://blog.fsck.com/2013/01/pinkies-and-your-brain.html http://blog.fsck.com/2013/01/pinkies-and-your-brain.html ) The ErgoDox is really the two halves of a Kinesis flattened. Keyboard.IO is a little bit different. There's a splay of a few degrees between the columns that map to each finger. A bunch of the work you do with your pinkies on the ErgoDox or just about any other keyboard moves to your thumbs. And yes, it ended up as a single keyboard. I really, really wanted to do something that was two separate pieces. Between the risks it would add to the mechanical design and the fact that I found myself intensely frustrating that the two halves of the ErgoDox were never in quite the places I expected them to be, we've decided to run with a single-piece unit, at least for the Model 01.
pjungwir 13y ago
I would love to find an ergonomic mechanical keyboard. I tried the Truly Ergonomic but sent it back because it hurt my wrists. I'm not sure I'd like the Kinesis bowls; perhaps I'll try it eventually. What I'd really like is a Microsoft Natural keyboard, but with mechanical switches. Is there anything like that out there?
- cfallin 13y ago
  I'll throw my vote in for the Kinesis Advantage along with the others. It made a huge difference, especially for Emacs pinky. The thumb keys are wonderful and make so much more sense than wasting both thumbs on a spacebar. As a datapoint, when I switched cold-turkey, it took about a week to be passable (~40wpm) and another week or two to get up to normal speed (~100wpm). The letter keys in the bowls actually aren't so bad; the harder part for me was retraining the control keys and punctuation. It's totally worth it though, and IMHO much easier than a full layout retraining (e.g. Dvorak, which I've given up on twice).
  - was_hellbanned 13y ago
    >Dvorak, which I've given up on twice I learned Dvorak before switching to the Kinesis. I was only able to do it by having some strategic down-time in my job, and I would say it took around a full year before I was even close to my old QWERTY speed. I can now switch between QWERTY (laptop) and DVORAK (desktop) with only an occasional hitch. Take it from me: the advantage of Dvorak pales in comparison to the advantage of a good keyboard. Add in the fact that the whole world (games, vim, cut/copy/paste) revolves around QWERTY, and Dvorak starts to lose its luster. (Come to think of it, the biggest plus for me with Dvorak is that I can left-hand mouse and hit copy/paste/undo with my right hand...)
    - Kuiper 13y ago
      I've found Colemak to be a nice alternative that avoids may of the Dvorak pitfalls you mentioned. The z, x, c, v, and w keys are in the same position they are in QWERTY layout, meaning that the common shortcuts for functions like cut, copy, paste, undo, close tab, are unchanged. Perhaps more importantly, the punctuation remains unchanged, which I consider to be a plus for programmers, who regularly need to make use of brackets of various kinds. (I feel it's worth noting that the Dvorak layout was created in 1936, and probably did not take the syntax of modern programming languages into account.) Because Colemak has more overlap with the QWERTY keyboard, the learning curve is much more gentle; it took me about 2 weeks to get up to around 50% of my old QWERTY WPM, and probably less than 3 months to get where I felt I could match my old WPM. By 1 month in I felt that I was efficient enough with Colemak that it was worth it to type a bit slower in exchange for the increase in comfort it afforded. I've found that the biggest inefficiency that came with the transition was not physical, but mental. During the early weeks of learning the new layout, I needed to actually devote some conscious thought to what my fingers are doing, meaning that those brain cycles couldn't be used to process what I was about to type next, leading to a process where I frequently needed to pause and think about what I was typing, whereas it's typically more continuous and interruption-free as my fingers try to keep up with my brain. During the first few weeks of transitioning, I used Colemak only for "clerical" tasks like writing emails and some documentation I was working on at the time, and not for coding.
julianpye 13y ago
As someone who has sworn by Microsoft's Natural Keyboards, you're on the right track! Regarding the Datahand and Kinesis, which I just discovered in this discussion - how would one be able to get their hands on them to test them?
- obrajesse 13y ago
  It depends. Where do you live? (And yeah, I spent a decade carrying a MS Natural Elite with me all over the planet. I used to order 'em in four-packs.)
  - julianpye 13y ago
    Munich... I guess when I am in the US next time, I will send out a request beforehand... But yeah, the MS Natural Elite is the keyboard that I have ordered in bulk, too :)
- jfb 13y ago
  Find a local who'd get you some time? If you're in either Toronto or San Francisco, drop me a line.
SmileyKeith 13y ago
I've been looking to create a ErgoDox[0] which is a two part mechanical design. Not sure I could deal with the split layout but I'm willing to try. It looks pretty similar to the ones in this post and you build it yourself. [0]: http://ergodox.org/ http://ergodox.org/
- obrajesse 13y ago
  Yeah. That's where I started last year. (I 3D printed one before the PCBs were done.) - blog.fsck.com/2013/01/pinkies-and-your-brain.html
  - ramenmeal 13y ago
    I would order this version.
  - SmileyKeith 13y ago
    Nice I really want to build one but I think I'd much rather buy the parts in a kit than separately. I saw this wooden case[0] in a tweet and I think I'd want to try my hand with that instead of the 3D printing. [0]: http://cl.ly/SvPT http://cl.ly/SvPT
    - lowboy 13y ago
      That's the ErgoDox, which is periodically sold in a parts kit by MassDrop https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox Registration is required for MassDrop, which is unfortunate - but they have to do that to be classified as something other than a retailer so they can offer lower prices. I did a write-up of my year with an ErgoDox here: http://jjt.io/2013/11/25/why-any-developer-should-check-out-the-ergodox-keyboard/ http://jjt.io/2013/11/25/why-any-developer-should-check-out-...
      - epsylon 13y ago
        Unfortunately I haven't seen it for sale on Massdrop since I've registered months ago... Of all the mechanical keyboard designs I've seen, that's the only one that makes sense to me ergonomically.
maheart 13y ago
I wish you'd kept with Mark 8/Mark 9 style (allowing you separate the two halves of the keyboard). I find this the one killer feature of the Kinesis FreeStyle. Unfortunately Kinesis Freestyle does not use mechanical keys.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  I do too! And we'll get back to it. But I know that if we tried to ship a splittable keyboard as our first product, we'd fuck it up. And I really don't want to fuck this up.
fsckin 13y ago
Jesse: what is your ideal retail price on these, if you had a good number of preorders?
- obrajesse 13y ago
  I don't have a number I'm ready to share in public. That's the big thing that's holding up a Kickstarter. Once we've got a manufacturing partner and know what our costs are, I'll be in a better place to give you a number. We're working to build something that's going to work well and look gorgeous for a really long time. It's not going to be cheap, but I don't think we could justify charging more than Kinesis do for the Advantage.
pjungwir 13y ago
Reading the story of your keyboard iterations was a lot of fun, and I'm very interested in finding a mechanical keyboard that works for me. But I have to ask: how can you possibly type with all those keys under your wrists? Am I the only one wondering this? What am I missing?
- obrajesse 13y ago
  Hm? There are only two keys that actually sit under the heels of your hands. And the keyboard is designed with a higher top plate than usual so that resting your palms on the butterfly's wings puts your hands in a fairly neutral position.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Those keys are not under the wrist, they are under the thumb. See the two lonely rectangles, that are next to no other keys? The 2nd joint of the thumb hovers right about there.
  - pjungwir 13y ago
    Thanks, that's reassuring! When I imagined putting my hands over the keys, I couldn't figure out how my wrists would miss the "lonely rectangles," but perhaps I'm visualizing it wrong.
shellehs 13y ago
I think it would be very helpful to prevent twisting my wrist as QWERTY standard keyboard.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  Exactly.
scoofy 13y ago
If you are going to spend this much time on ergo keyboards, please just learn Dvorak. The comfort improvement alone is one reason (of many) to switch.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  "Just" learning Dvorak isn't necessarily going to help people. For me, the angles I need to keep my wrists at to type on a traditional keyboard are a showstopper, no matter what layout I'm using. I've previously taught myself Dvorak. And Colemak. Both are, indeed, clearly better than QWERTY. They're not better enough to justify continuing to use a physical layout designed around 130 year old mechanical constraints. Please note that I'm not saying people shouldn't ditch QWERTY. They should. But that alone isn't enough to just declare the battle won and go home. (While the keyboard.io prototypes are labeled in QWERTY, the firmware speaks Dvorak and Colemak as well. As of last weekend, it also speaks Workman and a variant of the Maltron layout.)
  - scoofy 13y ago
    I'm certainly not saying ergo keyboards aren't useful. It's just that dedicating dozens of prototypes that will always float hands up and to the right (to get at the vowels) seems a fools errand. Ergos are great! I just think, in the same way a cyclist can buy a $4000 bike to save 10 lbs, when a moderate diet would achieve the same weight reduction, that it seems a bit misplaced resources.
    - sparkie 13y ago
      I'm a dvorak user and I agree with others that while it is useful, it's not sufficient alone for a good typing experience. Typing x, z, f is still more awkward than it needs to be, enter/backspace etc is difficult, and ctrl is in a really awful position on standard keyboards. (I'm sure every emacs user will agree.) The difference is more like using an off-road bicycle to travel on flat roads. It's just the wrong tool for the job. The standard keyboard layout was designed how it is for a specific purpose: to allow physical parts to move on old typewriters. The placement of keys serves little purpose to the typist. In our collective madness though, we have adapted ourselves to typewriter layouts, rather than adapting the layout to fit our hands when the requirement for moving physical parts disappeared. The higher price of ergo keyboards is mainly a consequence of a much smaller market. Standard keyboards are only so cheap because they're mass produced, and have had countless iterations to simplify the production process over the years. I'm in desperate need of a better ergo keyboard and I find projects like this one fascinating. I tried designing one myself a while back, but I don't have the skills to make it happen.
taternuts 13y ago
Cool! I've never tried the ErgoDox though I've been halfway wanting one for a year or so. I think if I didn't have to jump through geekhack groupbuy's and assemble it myself I may have made the jump. I noticed that the Mark2 was closer to a HHKB or 60% layout and it does look quite a bit smaller than the next iterations - is that just the pictures or is that true? Do you find the split ErgoDox-like layout is better than a more compact keyboard, even if you don't suffer from wrist pain?
- obrajesse 13y ago
  It was very close to a 60% keyboard. It just wasn't better enough than a 60% keyboard to really be worth my while. I find the split layout to be a lot more comfortable. And I didn't even touch-type when I fell down this rabbit hole.
prehkugler 13y ago
And here I am, just trying to find notched Dvorak replacement key caps for my MacBook Pro...
- obrajesse 13y ago
  Tiny dots of Sugru. (Alternatively, many folks recommend you _not_ relabel your keys when trying to learn a new layout.)
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
melling 13y ago
My finger tips sometimes are numb. Personally, I'd like a virtual keyboard where I don't need to touch anything. Any advanced Leap Motions or laser keyboards being developed?
- obrajesse 13y ago
  If your fingertips get numb while typing, STOP TYPING AND GO SEE A DOCTOR. Ideally a doctor who specializes in Sports Medicine. I'm not kidding. This is _not_ something to screw around with. And there are all sorts of reasons why zero-feedback keyboards are a bad idea, but that's a whole separate discussion. If you REALLY want a laser keyboard, ...aw http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/laser-keyboard-kit-p-1638.html?cPath=85_108 http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/laser-keyboard-kit-p-1638.h... is out of stock. There are plenty like it, though.
  - melling 13y ago
    Isn't the usual solution to stop doing whatever causes the pain? There isn't a known cure (ie pill, exercise, etc). If the impact of my fingers on the keyboard is causing the numbness then my best option Is to find a way to minimize the impact?
    - obrajesse 13y ago
      What's actually causing the pain could be any number of things, which is why I was shouting about going to see a doctor ;)
  - ISL 13y ago
    Agreed. There's a whole host of body-use things a PT can teach you that may help. Numb fingers suck; being able to function without them is awesome.
- was_hellbanned 13y ago
  Hi. Schedule an appointment with your doctor immediately. I experienced pain in my shoulder, then, eventually, numbness in my left index finger. It was a pinched C6/C7 nerve, and I've been effectively unable to work for four years. I'm serious. Go see your doctor, then examine your computing habits very closely.
analog31 13y ago
I'm almost ready to say that "ergonomic keyboard" is an oxymoron. Thinking outside the box: Some musical instruments have a small number of keys for a large number of notes. Playing for long time periods without injury is now part of the basic training that all musicians receive. Maybe a model for an ergonomic keyboard would be something like a saxophone.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  You want to look up 'chording keyboards' - They're one of the few things from Engelbart's 'Mother Of All Demos' that's not now a standard part of computing.
  - clarkm 13y ago
    Unfortunately, designers these days seem to hate modal interfaces because they detract from "walkup usability", so I doubt we'll see these making a comeback. Then again, maybe Apple's multi-touch gestures are close enough to chording that they'll be rediscovered and become cool again.
- b1daly 13y ago
  I don't see the advantage of chording based input, it actually requires more effort to press two or three keys at once. I guess I'm thinking of the use of modifier keys. Anecdotally speaking, it increases tension as well because of the need to maintain more complex finger/hand positions under stress and high repetitions.
  - agumonkey 13y ago
    All things considered it's only a different kind of effort. You have to learn how to distribute smoothly the tension in all limbs, it's abstract at first, but that's how musicians can play anything. Also maybe chorded keyboard would fit or need a better set of commands. More abstract ones thus less many.
rietta 13y ago
Nice! I have not made the jump to ergonomic though I do have both a Unicomp Model M and a DAS Keyboard (Cherry Blue) that are my prefered. Though neither keyboard is ergonomic, its use is because it allows me to place my laptop on a stand and use a second external monitor. This and switching to the Dvorak keyboard layout has made a huge difference to me personally in terms of hand comfort.
RexRollman 13y ago
I like it. It looks a bit minimalist. This makes me wonder what the most minimalist keyboard available currently is. The Happy Hacking keyboard, I am guessing.
- TacticalCoder 13y ago
  The HHKB (on which I type this) is kinda minimalist but it's still a "60%" keyboard (no numpad, no functions keys and no arrow keys for the HHKB but some 60% have dedicated arrow keys). There are people who have custom 40% keyboards (you simply use a modifier to access the "missing" numbers row). The most minimalist has way less keys than that and is probably the DataHand (or something close to it, like a one-handed DataHand if such a beast exist?). I like the look of the keyboards he realized, reminds me of the ErgoDox. Not that contrarily to the HHKB the keyboards in the blog aren't "staggered" and are all split. The HHKB appeals to many because it has incredible switches (Topre) yet stays very close to traditional keyboards that people have been using for years and years. It's not easy to adapt to a non-staggered layout and some people are allergic to split layouts. If you're into that sort of thing, GeekHack.org and Deskthority.net are good places to hang out on.
  - obrajesse 13y ago
    The most minimalist thing currently in production is probably: http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/ http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/
    - TacticalCoder 13y ago
      Hey obra, good to see a GHer on the front page of HN... It's a nice board you made there and I prefer your thumbs key placement than the one on the ErgoDox, which I find to be too a bit too close one to another.
      - obrajesse 13y ago
        Thanks! The ErgoDox layout is nearly identical to the Kinesis and Maltron layouts, so it's not exactly without precedent, but yeah. I think we can do better :)
tuananh 13y ago
I look at some of the prototype and I don't know how exactly how i'm going to place my hands on that. Like this one https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3666/11330346296_f2c62e4250_c.jpg
- to3m 13y ago
  The four keys arranged in a circle are for pressing with the tip of your thumb. I imagine the one in the centre of the circle is for use with the base of your thumb.
  - tuananh 13y ago
    that one in the center of the circle is what making me confused. if i can't rest my hands on the keyboard, what's the point of ergonomic!
    - obrajesse 13y ago
      You can. If you're resting the outer sides of your palms on the keyboard and resting the heel of your thumb on the palm keys, they won't activate. you have to push down slightly to get them to.
samstave 13y ago
Why are they flat? you have a 3d hand and a 3d printer... would a curved cylindrical/spherical setup.
- cma 13y ago
  To get away with using PCBs.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  Manufacturability. Something curved/contoured would be better, but I would rather make something good than fail to make something better.
Arelius 13y ago
This is awesome, I'd love to do it. I type on a Kinesis most of the time, and it's great. The one thing I wish I had though, was a laptop with a split space bar. Thumb delete is the best keyboard innovation in like 20 years.
- wtallis 13y ago
  Meanwhile, most keyboards (especially desktop boards) have spacebars so wide that none of the modifier keys are easily reachable by thumb. C through M should be the widest allowable spacebar, and splitting it is great.
  - dsr_ 13y ago
    I'm typing this on a Unicomp Model M-compact clone, an Ultra Classic. The spacebar goes from C through just past M and into ,. Buckling springs and a reasonable ($79) price.
unwind 13y ago
That was a very inspiring project, and read. Always impressive with people doing "all trades": from pure ergnomimcal to mechanical design, to keyboard driver firmware, to PCB design. Awesome! I was happy to see the author settle for KiCad, having made a micro version of the same journey I've settled for KiCad too, it's pretty nice once you start getting going. I was surprised to not see any mention of OSH Park when it came to board manufacturing, I thought they were the default for small-scale prototyping, and they're certainly competetive when it comes to price ($5 per square inch, for threee boards). Being in Europe the shipping delay is intensely frustrating, but otherwise OSH Park is like a dream come true. Keep up the good work!
- obrajesse 13y ago
  Thanks! OSH Park isn't a great deal for keyboard production. my keyboards are on the order of 60 square inches. Ordering from Seeed, I get 10 copies of my board for $200 in about a week.
Alex_MJ 13y ago
Out of curiosity, was there anything wrong with the two handed design (like intrinsically/ergonomically, not wiring-related) that caused you to switch back to a one-piece design after the Mark 9? I've been wanting for years for the monitor-keyboard setup to be replaced by something that's set up to a human body and not a table. Screen is set to your head and not vice versa. Manual input devices are physically based on your hands and not to a table. You don't have to lean forward to look at a screen. You don't have to hunch over (or even tend to hunch over) to type and mouse. Ergonomics problems vastly go out the window because you don't have to conform your body to a machine built for compactness and manufacturability. On the monitor front, once somebody mods the Oculus Rift for non-gaming [read: programming etc] use, I'll dance an embarassing unskillful engineer jig and then buy one immediately. On the input (mouse/keyboard) front I'd love to have two devices attached to my hands instead of having to reach forward to a keyboard (dual myo bands? some kind of handheld gig?) so the two-handed keyboards are always intriguing to me and I'd love to hear more about your experience with designing them. (and in general). Rock on!
- obrajesse 13y ago
  The split design is..not great in my lap, which is usually where I rest my keyboard. With better mechanical design, that could be better. But no, it's mostly about manufacturability and simplicity for what will be my first physical 'product'
hansstam 13y ago
huge disclaimer: i work for a company that is about the be aquired by primax. As you can see above, I'm working for a company that is currently being bought by http://primax.com.tw/ http://primax.com.tw/ . I went on a factory tour of their facotry here inb China a few days ago. They are basicly the biggest keyboard-producing factory in China/ the world. I love the mark 13, and it would be awesome if it could be mass-produced. Primax might be the right factory for that.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  Have your sales folks reach out to me? jesse at keyboard.io
  - hansstam 13y ago
    Can't really do that, cause I'm new and working on the engineering side of things. We don't usually communicate with sales people. Shoot them an email yourself.
    - obrajesse 13y ago
      'k
eitally 13y ago
I don't know if you contacted any of the big EMS companies, but they all -- with the possible exception of Foxconn -- take small projects and prototype runs. Generally speaking, it's as part of a DFM engagement. For example, my employer, Sanmina, streamlined Bloom Energy's functional prototype design from 5 PCBs down to 1, and cut overall complexity (and cost) by a large fraction in the process. Flextronics opened their Lab IX in Milpitas, CA, to focus on hardware startup development, too. If you think you might need real engineering help and not just "dumb manufacturing", it may be worthwhile to consider the big guys, too. http://sanmina.com/end-to-end-services/design-engineering/index.php http://sanmina.com/end-to-end-services/design-engineering/in...
- obrajesse 13y ago
  I haven't, mostly because this is all out of pocket and I've been operating with the assumption that larger vendors aren't going to be willing to work for peanuts for an 'unstartup' I'd love to find out I'm wrong. If you want to point your salesfolks at me, I'd be happy to chat. I'm jesse at keyboard.io
urza 13y ago
Somebody please do microsoft's Natural keyboard with Cherry MX Clear keys. And fixed transceiver. That would solve it for me.
brendoncrawford 13y ago
"Ergonomic" has become a great buzzword. These keyboards are not ergonomic. While they protect against ulnar deviation, they do not protect against pronation and dorsiflexion. Note that you WILL still get RSI from using these keyboards.
- dpark 13y ago
  > "Ergonomic" has become a great buzzword. These keyboards are not ergonomic. "Ergonomic" is not a binary switch. A thing is not simply "ergonomic" or not. And more importantly, what is ergonomic varies based on the user. For the author, these keyboards are presumably more ergonomic than alternatives. For you, they might not be. > Note that you WILL still get RSI from using these keyboards. That's a rather strong claim, especially considering that many people never get RSI even from standard keyboards.
  - brendoncrawford 13y ago
    Good points. This is a very cool project, and it will be fun to watch it progress.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  I use 'ergonomic' to describe the general category of keyboard. I wouldn't even begin to claim that my keyboards (or ANY keyboard) will protect you from getting RSI. If you have recommendations for better buzzwords, I'm all ears.
  - brendoncrawford 13y ago
    Understandable. Thanks for explaining. I will be looking forward to watching this project progress. If you ever make a vertical keyboard, I might buy a lifetime supply :)
    - obrajesse 13y ago
      Thanks :) How do you deal with arm fatigue when using a vertical keyboard?
josh-wrale 13y ago
As a sufferer of carpal tunnel syndrome, I can tell you that this palm rest design is a bad idea. You're focusing the weight of each hand on a pressure point which is sure to contribute to pinching the median nerve. Also, separating the left and right hand boards from one another really helps with joint stress. I saw one of the designs has a axle. Why not just split the keyboard in two completely? I vote for each half of the keyboard having a velcro strap that I can comfortably attach just above each of my knees. For most people, this would be a very neutral posture. In fact, it may even inspire better posture as folks would reach for the keys on their knees.. You know.. You could call it KneeKeyboard or Keys-4-Knees. Then again, I'm sure someone has already done it, but I'm too lazy/busy to look into it right now. Other than those comments. Awesome stuff. Edit: I'd like to add that the wrist pad suggests to me wrist movement is required to reach all of the keys. Again, the carpal tunnel gnome tells me that pivoting my wrist is painful. Why not strive for very little wrist movement. Once you get there, the surface is it's own support, and it would support more than just the wrist; it would support the forearm, too (see knee keyboard suggestion above). I also noticed one of the designs recessed the keys below the face of the keyboard. I think that's a good way to get away from the vertical wrist pivoting. Still, you'd need to mind the lip of the recess, so it's not a high impact point on the wrist.
DonGateley 13y ago
Iteration is the child of patience. Patience is the child of passion.

227 points by obrajesse 13y ago

X4 13y ago

A list of all kinds of keyboards: http://asanisembiring.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/ http://asanisembiring.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/ I think the SenseBoard Keyboard is the best amongst these.

tlarkworthy 13y ago

put a trackball in the middle near the thumbs, that switch to mouse control from keyboard kills me

obrajesse 13y ago
That's what the Maltron does. I don't find it all that comfortable. I've actually got something better up my sleeve, but I'm still working on sourcing the parts.
- gojomo 13y ago
  Is 'up my sleeve' also a hint about where the pointing-device interfaces with the body?
  - obrajesse 13y ago
    Heh. Thankfully, no. I was really hopeful that the Leap Motion was going to be 'the right thing', but I'm pretty sure that anything that requires you to move your wrist to use is going to be a lose. I'm not 100% sure we're going to get a pointing device into the v1 product. I'd rather ship a good keyboard than not ship a better keyboard.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - TylerE 13y ago
      Old school IBM nipple mouse?
      - obrajesse 13y ago
        Not sayin', but you're getting warmer.
        wting 13y ago
        This line has me more excited over everything else. I can't wait for a mechanical keyboard with a trackpoint like device. I'm a big fan of Thinkpad keyboards and have a few USB versions, but finally switched to mechanical keyboards 6 months ago. I still miss the Trackpoint daily though...
        snogglethorpe 13y ago
        I've seen a trackpoint- (or some equivalent eraserhead pointer thingy) bearing keyboard with cherry (blue?) switches in the store, but it was a bit too "maximal" for my taste (numpad, lots of function keys etc).
        obrajesse 13y ago
        Really? Do you remember which store or which brand? I can't think of any current keyboard with Cherry switches and a trackpoint.
        snogglethorpe 13y ago
        Don't remember the brand. It was in the "LABI Shibuya" store in Tokyo (Shibuya of course), in the keyboard section: https://goo.gl/maps/o4wm1 https://goo.gl/maps/o4wm1 I noticed that the shelf tags for keyboards in this store all made a point of mentioning the key-switches used, so it's clearly a selling point even in a relatively mass-market store...
        obrajesse 13y ago
- tlarkworthy 13y ago
  what you got so far looks pretty hot. I await in anticipation!
  - obrajesse 13y ago
    Thanks! I'm pretty excited.
- cgh 13y ago
  Which switches do you plan to use? Really like the sounds of this (I read your entire page, sorry to hear about your printer catching on fire!). I looked for an ergo mechanical keyboard but couldn't find one to my liking so ended up with a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue switches. Really love it except for the whole lack of ergonomics thing. The Cherry Blues are fantastic.
  - meowface 13y ago
    I have the exact same keyboard (Majestouch, with Cherry Blues). Been using it for the past few years, and I love it. Do ergonomic keyboards allow you to type faster? Or do they just let you rest your hands more naturally?
    - obrajesse 13y ago
      That is a matter of some debate. Even in the scientific literature. But I do know that when it hurts less for me to type, I can type for longer stretches. And that's way more important to me than typing faster.
    - cgh 13y ago
      I have bad elbow issues and ergo keyboards help somewhat.
  - obrajesse 13y ago
    It'll be Cherry switches. Depending on who we end up with for a manufacturing partner, we may be able to offer a wide variety of switch options. If we can only pick one, I'd probably run with Cherry Browns. They feel a lot like the Blues, but won't piss off the people sitting around you.
    - grosskur 13y ago
      What do you think about low force microswitches? Would you consider them for a future model? http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitch/ http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitch/
egh 13y ago
unicomp sell the endurapro, basically a model m with a trackpoint.
- wiredfool 13y ago
  OMG. I've been waiting for them to do this for forever. I've got a pair of M13s, neither of which is totally functional anymore. I never realized how much I used the trackpoint until I had to switch to the one where it wasn't working.
  - egh 13y ago
    I've had mine for a couple years. The trackpoint is not as good as the one on my lenovo, but it works and saves me from reaching for the trackball 95% of the time.

kross 13y ago

How is this better or worse than the Kinesis contoured keyboard? I've been using one for more than 10 years.

obrajesse 13y ago
I think the thumb layout is more comfortable and easier to use. Kinesis users I've put in front of my prototypes come up to speed pretty quickly. Non-kinesis users seem to come up to speed a lot faster than they do when confronted with the kinesis' bowls. Also, it's a lot more portable. And it's really, really fully programmable.
tomlu 13y ago
I have a Kinesis, and the trouble I found with these were that they are raised too far above the table surface which causes neck strain for me. I have had better luck with the Truly Ergonomic but this looks even better!

efnx 13y ago

I swear by my datahands.

obrajesse 13y ago
The Datahand is awesome. It does a lot of stuff very, very right. I was never really able to get up to speed on mine. There's actually a hobbyist project to reproduce the Datahand right now over at geekhack.org
- efnx 13y ago
  I'm in contact with olddatahands who started the project. I'll be helping in any way I can. Datahands take some commitment, but they pay off big time. It took me about 3 weeks of using them at work before I became comfortable. I'm sure if I started learning to type on dvorak that would be lessened - I went all in and switched to the dvorak datahands and now I can't type on regular keyboards at all. They at least have to be dvorak.
  - obrajesse 13y ago
    Awesome. I'm looking forward to it.
daeken 13y ago
I really wish Datahands were available for purchase. No one gets rid of them, and they aren't produced anymore (I tried emailing them numerous times before their site disappeared -- nothing). If anyone wants to sell a set, I'm buying!
- ne0phyte 13y ago
  Good luck with that. Depending on the condition they go $1500-2000+ on eBay these days.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]

daragh 13y ago

I'm currently awaiting delivery of components to assemble an ErgoDox. The later variations show here display an encouraging similarity to a lot of the ErgoDox's features, although perhaps most interestingly a move away from independent positioning of the two halves.

obrajesse 13y ago
Actually, I _started_ from an ErgoDox. :) ( http://blog.fsck.com/2013/01/pinkies-and-your-brain.html http://blog.fsck.com/2013/01/pinkies-and-your-brain.html ) The ErgoDox is really the two halves of a Kinesis flattened. Keyboard.IO is a little bit different. There's a splay of a few degrees between the columns that map to each finger. A bunch of the work you do with your pinkies on the ErgoDox or just about any other keyboard moves to your thumbs. And yes, it ended up as a single keyboard. I really, really wanted to do something that was two separate pieces. Between the risks it would add to the mechanical design and the fact that I found myself intensely frustrating that the two halves of the ErgoDox were never in quite the places I expected them to be, we've decided to run with a single-piece unit, at least for the Model 01.

pjungwir 13y ago

I would love to find an ergonomic mechanical keyboard. I tried the Truly Ergonomic but sent it back because it hurt my wrists. I'm not sure I'd like the Kinesis bowls; perhaps I'll try it eventually. What I'd really like is a Microsoft Natural keyboard, but with mechanical switches. Is there anything like that out there?

cfallin 13y ago
I'll throw my vote in for the Kinesis Advantage along with the others. It made a huge difference, especially for Emacs pinky. The thumb keys are wonderful and make so much more sense than wasting both thumbs on a spacebar. As a datapoint, when I switched cold-turkey, it took about a week to be passable (~40wpm) and another week or two to get up to normal speed (~100wpm). The letter keys in the bowls actually aren't so bad; the harder part for me was retraining the control keys and punctuation. It's totally worth it though, and IMHO much easier than a full layout retraining (e.g. Dvorak, which I've given up on twice).
- was_hellbanned 13y ago
  >Dvorak, which I've given up on twice I learned Dvorak before switching to the Kinesis. I was only able to do it by having some strategic down-time in my job, and I would say it took around a full year before I was even close to my old QWERTY speed. I can now switch between QWERTY (laptop) and DVORAK (desktop) with only an occasional hitch. Take it from me: the advantage of Dvorak pales in comparison to the advantage of a good keyboard. Add in the fact that the whole world (games, vim, cut/copy/paste) revolves around QWERTY, and Dvorak starts to lose its luster. (Come to think of it, the biggest plus for me with Dvorak is that I can left-hand mouse and hit copy/paste/undo with my right hand...)
  - Kuiper 13y ago
    I've found Colemak to be a nice alternative that avoids may of the Dvorak pitfalls you mentioned. The z, x, c, v, and w keys are in the same position they are in QWERTY layout, meaning that the common shortcuts for functions like cut, copy, paste, undo, close tab, are unchanged. Perhaps more importantly, the punctuation remains unchanged, which I consider to be a plus for programmers, who regularly need to make use of brackets of various kinds. (I feel it's worth noting that the Dvorak layout was created in 1936, and probably did not take the syntax of modern programming languages into account.) Because Colemak has more overlap with the QWERTY keyboard, the learning curve is much more gentle; it took me about 2 weeks to get up to around 50% of my old QWERTY WPM, and probably less than 3 months to get where I felt I could match my old WPM. By 1 month in I felt that I was efficient enough with Colemak that it was worth it to type a bit slower in exchange for the increase in comfort it afforded. I've found that the biggest inefficiency that came with the transition was not physical, but mental. During the early weeks of learning the new layout, I needed to actually devote some conscious thought to what my fingers are doing, meaning that those brain cycles couldn't be used to process what I was about to type next, leading to a process where I frequently needed to pause and think about what I was typing, whereas it's typically more continuous and interruption-free as my fingers try to keep up with my brain. During the first few weeks of transitioning, I used Colemak only for "clerical" tasks like writing emails and some documentation I was working on at the time, and not for coding.

julianpye 13y ago

As someone who has sworn by Microsoft's Natural Keyboards, you're on the right track! Regarding the Datahand and Kinesis, which I just discovered in this discussion - how would one be able to get their hands on them to test them?

obrajesse 13y ago
It depends. Where do you live? (And yeah, I spent a decade carrying a MS Natural Elite with me all over the planet. I used to order 'em in four-packs.)
- julianpye 13y ago
  Munich... I guess when I am in the US next time, I will send out a request beforehand... But yeah, the MS Natural Elite is the keyboard that I have ordered in bulk, too :)
jfb 13y ago
Find a local who'd get you some time? If you're in either Toronto or San Francisco, drop me a line.

SmileyKeith 13y ago

I've been looking to create a ErgoDox[0] which is a two part mechanical design. Not sure I could deal with the split layout but I'm willing to try. It looks pretty similar to the ones in this post and you build it yourself. [0]: http://ergodox.org/ http://ergodox.org/

obrajesse 13y ago
Yeah. That's where I started last year. (I 3D printed one before the PCBs were done.) - blog.fsck.com/2013/01/pinkies-and-your-brain.html
- ramenmeal 13y ago
  I would order this version.
- SmileyKeith 13y ago
  Nice I really want to build one but I think I'd much rather buy the parts in a kit than separately. I saw this wooden case[0] in a tweet and I think I'd want to try my hand with that instead of the 3D printing. [0]: http://cl.ly/SvPT http://cl.ly/SvPT
  - lowboy 13y ago
    That's the ErgoDox, which is periodically sold in a parts kit by MassDrop https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox Registration is required for MassDrop, which is unfortunate - but they have to do that to be classified as something other than a retailer so they can offer lower prices. I did a write-up of my year with an ErgoDox here: http://jjt.io/2013/11/25/why-any-developer-should-check-out-the-ergodox-keyboard/ http://jjt.io/2013/11/25/why-any-developer-should-check-out-...
    - epsylon 13y ago
      Unfortunately I haven't seen it for sale on Massdrop since I've registered months ago... Of all the mechanical keyboard designs I've seen, that's the only one that makes sense to me ergonomically.

maheart 13y ago

I wish you'd kept with Mark 8/Mark 9 style (allowing you separate the two halves of the keyboard). I find this the one killer feature of the Kinesis FreeStyle. Unfortunately Kinesis Freestyle does not use mechanical keys.

obrajesse 13y ago
I do too! And we'll get back to it. But I know that if we tried to ship a splittable keyboard as our first product, we'd fuck it up. And I really don't want to fuck this up.

fsckin 13y ago

Jesse: what is your ideal retail price on these, if you had a good number of preorders?

obrajesse 13y ago
I don't have a number I'm ready to share in public. That's the big thing that's holding up a Kickstarter. Once we've got a manufacturing partner and know what our costs are, I'll be in a better place to give you a number. We're working to build something that's going to work well and look gorgeous for a really long time. It's not going to be cheap, but I don't think we could justify charging more than Kinesis do for the Advantage.

pjungwir 13y ago

Reading the story of your keyboard iterations was a lot of fun, and I'm very interested in finding a mechanical keyboard that works for me. But I have to ask: how can you possibly type with all those keys under your wrists? Am I the only one wondering this? What am I missing?

obrajesse 13y ago
Hm? There are only two keys that actually sit under the heels of your hands. And the keyboard is designed with a higher top plate than usual so that resting your palms on the butterfly's wings puts your hands in a fairly neutral position.
sliverstorm 13y ago
Those keys are not under the wrist, they are under the thumb. See the two lonely rectangles, that are next to no other keys? The 2nd joint of the thumb hovers right about there.
- pjungwir 13y ago
  Thanks, that's reassuring! When I imagined putting my hands over the keys, I couldn't figure out how my wrists would miss the "lonely rectangles," but perhaps I'm visualizing it wrong.

shellehs 13y ago

I think it would be very helpful to prevent twisting my wrist as QWERTY standard keyboard.

obrajesse 13y ago
Exactly.

scoofy 13y ago

If you are going to spend this much time on ergo keyboards, please just learn Dvorak. The comfort improvement alone is one reason (of many) to switch.

obrajesse 13y ago
"Just" learning Dvorak isn't necessarily going to help people. For me, the angles I need to keep my wrists at to type on a traditional keyboard are a showstopper, no matter what layout I'm using. I've previously taught myself Dvorak. And Colemak. Both are, indeed, clearly better than QWERTY. They're not better enough to justify continuing to use a physical layout designed around 130 year old mechanical constraints. Please note that I'm not saying people shouldn't ditch QWERTY. They should. But that alone isn't enough to just declare the battle won and go home. (While the keyboard.io prototypes are labeled in QWERTY, the firmware speaks Dvorak and Colemak as well. As of last weekend, it also speaks Workman and a variant of the Maltron layout.)
- scoofy 13y ago
  I'm certainly not saying ergo keyboards aren't useful. It's just that dedicating dozens of prototypes that will always float hands up and to the right (to get at the vowels) seems a fools errand. Ergos are great! I just think, in the same way a cyclist can buy a $4000 bike to save 10 lbs, when a moderate diet would achieve the same weight reduction, that it seems a bit misplaced resources.
  - sparkie 13y ago
    I'm a dvorak user and I agree with others that while it is useful, it's not sufficient alone for a good typing experience. Typing x, z, f is still more awkward than it needs to be, enter/backspace etc is difficult, and ctrl is in a really awful position on standard keyboards. (I'm sure every emacs user will agree.) The difference is more like using an off-road bicycle to travel on flat roads. It's just the wrong tool for the job. The standard keyboard layout was designed how it is for a specific purpose: to allow physical parts to move on old typewriters. The placement of keys serves little purpose to the typist. In our collective madness though, we have adapted ourselves to typewriter layouts, rather than adapting the layout to fit our hands when the requirement for moving physical parts disappeared. The higher price of ergo keyboards is mainly a consequence of a much smaller market. Standard keyboards are only so cheap because they're mass produced, and have had countless iterations to simplify the production process over the years. I'm in desperate need of a better ergo keyboard and I find projects like this one fascinating. I tried designing one myself a while back, but I don't have the skills to make it happen.

taternuts 13y ago

Cool! I've never tried the ErgoDox though I've been halfway wanting one for a year or so. I think if I didn't have to jump through geekhack groupbuy's and assemble it myself I may have made the jump. I noticed that the Mark2 was closer to a HHKB or 60% layout and it does look quite a bit smaller than the next iterations - is that just the pictures or is that true? Do you find the split ErgoDox-like layout is better than a more compact keyboard, even if you don't suffer from wrist pain?

obrajesse 13y ago
It was very close to a 60% keyboard. It just wasn't better enough than a 60% keyboard to really be worth my while. I find the split layout to be a lot more comfortable. And I didn't even touch-type when I fell down this rabbit hole.

prehkugler 13y ago

And here I am, just trying to find notched Dvorak replacement key caps for my MacBook Pro...

obrajesse 13y ago
Tiny dots of Sugru. (Alternatively, many folks recommend you _not_ relabel your keys when trying to learn a new layout.)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

melling 13y ago

My finger tips sometimes are numb. Personally, I'd like a virtual keyboard where I don't need to touch anything. Any advanced Leap Motions or laser keyboards being developed?

obrajesse 13y ago
If your fingertips get numb while typing, STOP TYPING AND GO SEE A DOCTOR. Ideally a doctor who specializes in Sports Medicine. I'm not kidding. This is _not_ something to screw around with. And there are all sorts of reasons why zero-feedback keyboards are a bad idea, but that's a whole separate discussion. If you REALLY want a laser keyboard, ...aw http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/laser-keyboard-kit-p-1638.html?cPath=85_108 http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/laser-keyboard-kit-p-1638.h... is out of stock. There are plenty like it, though.
- melling 13y ago
  Isn't the usual solution to stop doing whatever causes the pain? There isn't a known cure (ie pill, exercise, etc). If the impact of my fingers on the keyboard is causing the numbness then my best option Is to find a way to minimize the impact?
  - obrajesse 13y ago
    What's actually causing the pain could be any number of things, which is why I was shouting about going to see a doctor ;)
- ISL 13y ago
  Agreed. There's a whole host of body-use things a PT can teach you that may help. Numb fingers suck; being able to function without them is awesome.
was_hellbanned 13y ago
Hi. Schedule an appointment with your doctor immediately. I experienced pain in my shoulder, then, eventually, numbness in my left index finger. It was a pinched C6/C7 nerve, and I've been effectively unable to work for four years. I'm serious. Go see your doctor, then examine your computing habits very closely.

analog31 13y ago

I'm almost ready to say that "ergonomic keyboard" is an oxymoron. Thinking outside the box: Some musical instruments have a small number of keys for a large number of notes. Playing for long time periods without injury is now part of the basic training that all musicians receive. Maybe a model for an ergonomic keyboard would be something like a saxophone.

obrajesse 13y ago
You want to look up 'chording keyboards' - They're one of the few things from Engelbart's 'Mother Of All Demos' that's not now a standard part of computing.
- clarkm 13y ago
  Unfortunately, designers these days seem to hate modal interfaces because they detract from "walkup usability", so I doubt we'll see these making a comeback. Then again, maybe Apple's multi-touch gestures are close enough to chording that they'll be rediscovered and become cool again.
b1daly 13y ago
I don't see the advantage of chording based input, it actually requires more effort to press two or three keys at once. I guess I'm thinking of the use of modifier keys. Anecdotally speaking, it increases tension as well because of the need to maintain more complex finger/hand positions under stress and high repetitions.
- agumonkey 13y ago
  All things considered it's only a different kind of effort. You have to learn how to distribute smoothly the tension in all limbs, it's abstract at first, but that's how musicians can play anything. Also maybe chorded keyboard would fit or need a better set of commands. More abstract ones thus less many.

rietta 13y ago

Nice! I have not made the jump to ergonomic though I do have both a Unicomp Model M and a DAS Keyboard (Cherry Blue) that are my prefered. Though neither keyboard is ergonomic, its use is because it allows me to place my laptop on a stand and use a second external monitor. This and switching to the Dvorak keyboard layout has made a huge difference to me personally in terms of hand comfort.

RexRollman 13y ago

I like it. It looks a bit minimalist. This makes me wonder what the most minimalist keyboard available currently is. The Happy Hacking keyboard, I am guessing.

TacticalCoder 13y ago
The HHKB (on which I type this) is kinda minimalist but it's still a "60%" keyboard (no numpad, no functions keys and no arrow keys for the HHKB but some 60% have dedicated arrow keys). There are people who have custom 40% keyboards (you simply use a modifier to access the "missing" numbers row). The most minimalist has way less keys than that and is probably the DataHand (or something close to it, like a one-handed DataHand if such a beast exist?). I like the look of the keyboards he realized, reminds me of the ErgoDox. Not that contrarily to the HHKB the keyboards in the blog aren't "staggered" and are all split. The HHKB appeals to many because it has incredible switches (Topre) yet stays very close to traditional keyboards that people have been using for years and years. It's not easy to adapt to a non-staggered layout and some people are allergic to split layouts. If you're into that sort of thing, GeekHack.org and Deskthority.net are good places to hang out on.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  The most minimalist thing currently in production is probably: http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/ http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/
  - TacticalCoder 13y ago
    Hey obra, good to see a GHer on the front page of HN... It's a nice board you made there and I prefer your thumbs key placement than the one on the ErgoDox, which I find to be too a bit too close one to another.
    - obrajesse 13y ago
      Thanks! The ErgoDox layout is nearly identical to the Kinesis and Maltron layouts, so it's not exactly without precedent, but yeah. I think we can do better :)

tuananh 13y ago

I look at some of the prototype and I don't know how exactly how i'm going to place my hands on that. Like this one https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3666/11330346296_f2c62e4250_c.jpg

to3m 13y ago
The four keys arranged in a circle are for pressing with the tip of your thumb. I imagine the one in the centre of the circle is for use with the base of your thumb.
- tuananh 13y ago
  that one in the center of the circle is what making me confused. if i can't rest my hands on the keyboard, what's the point of ergonomic!
  - obrajesse 13y ago
    You can. If you're resting the outer sides of your palms on the keyboard and resting the heel of your thumb on the palm keys, they won't activate. you have to push down slightly to get them to.

samstave 13y ago

Why are they flat? you have a 3d hand and a 3d printer... would a curved cylindrical/spherical setup.

cma 13y ago
To get away with using PCBs.
obrajesse 13y ago
Manufacturability. Something curved/contoured would be better, but I would rather make something good than fail to make something better.

Arelius 13y ago

This is awesome, I'd love to do it. I type on a Kinesis most of the time, and it's great. The one thing I wish I had though, was a laptop with a split space bar. Thumb delete is the best keyboard innovation in like 20 years.

wtallis 13y ago
Meanwhile, most keyboards (especially desktop boards) have spacebars so wide that none of the modifier keys are easily reachable by thumb. C through M should be the widest allowable spacebar, and splitting it is great.
- dsr_ 13y ago
  I'm typing this on a Unicomp Model M-compact clone, an Ultra Classic. The spacebar goes from C through just past M and into ,. Buckling springs and a reasonable ($79) price.

unwind 13y ago

That was a very inspiring project, and read. Always impressive with people doing "all trades": from pure ergnomimcal to mechanical design, to keyboard driver firmware, to PCB design. Awesome! I was happy to see the author settle for KiCad, having made a micro version of the same journey I've settled for KiCad too, it's pretty nice once you start getting going. I was surprised to not see any mention of OSH Park when it came to board manufacturing, I thought they were the default for small-scale prototyping, and they're certainly competetive when it comes to price ($5 per square inch, for threee boards). Being in Europe the shipping delay is intensely frustrating, but otherwise OSH Park is like a dream come true. Keep up the good work!

obrajesse 13y ago
Thanks! OSH Park isn't a great deal for keyboard production. my keyboards are on the order of 60 square inches. Ordering from Seeed, I get 10 copies of my board for $200 in about a week.

Alex_MJ 13y ago

Out of curiosity, was there anything wrong with the two handed design (like intrinsically/ergonomically, not wiring-related) that caused you to switch back to a one-piece design after the Mark 9? I've been wanting for years for the monitor-keyboard setup to be replaced by something that's set up to a human body and not a table. Screen is set to your head and not vice versa. Manual input devices are physically based on your hands and not to a table. You don't have to lean forward to look at a screen. You don't have to hunch over (or even tend to hunch over) to type and mouse. Ergonomics problems vastly go out the window because you don't have to conform your body to a machine built for compactness and manufacturability. On the monitor front, once somebody mods the Oculus Rift for non-gaming [read: programming etc] use, I'll dance an embarassing unskillful engineer jig and then buy one immediately. On the input (mouse/keyboard) front I'd love to have two devices attached to my hands instead of having to reach forward to a keyboard (dual myo bands? some kind of handheld gig?) so the two-handed keyboards are always intriguing to me and I'd love to hear more about your experience with designing them. (and in general). Rock on!

obrajesse 13y ago
The split design is..not great in my lap, which is usually where I rest my keyboard. With better mechanical design, that could be better. But no, it's mostly about manufacturability and simplicity for what will be my first physical 'product'

hansstam 13y ago

huge disclaimer: i work for a company that is about the be aquired by primax. As you can see above, I'm working for a company that is currently being bought by http://primax.com.tw/ http://primax.com.tw/ . I went on a factory tour of their facotry here inb China a few days ago. They are basicly the biggest keyboard-producing factory in China/ the world. I love the mark 13, and it would be awesome if it could be mass-produced. Primax might be the right factory for that.

obrajesse 13y ago
Have your sales folks reach out to me? jesse at keyboard.io
- hansstam 13y ago
  Can't really do that, cause I'm new and working on the engineering side of things. We don't usually communicate with sales people. Shoot them an email yourself.
  - obrajesse 13y ago
    'k

eitally 13y ago

I don't know if you contacted any of the big EMS companies, but they all -- with the possible exception of Foxconn -- take small projects and prototype runs. Generally speaking, it's as part of a DFM engagement. For example, my employer, Sanmina, streamlined Bloom Energy's functional prototype design from 5 PCBs down to 1, and cut overall complexity (and cost) by a large fraction in the process. Flextronics opened their Lab IX in Milpitas, CA, to focus on hardware startup development, too. If you think you might need real engineering help and not just "dumb manufacturing", it may be worthwhile to consider the big guys, too. http://sanmina.com/end-to-end-services/design-engineering/index.php http://sanmina.com/end-to-end-services/design-engineering/in...

obrajesse 13y ago
I haven't, mostly because this is all out of pocket and I've been operating with the assumption that larger vendors aren't going to be willing to work for peanuts for an 'unstartup' I'd love to find out I'm wrong. If you want to point your salesfolks at me, I'd be happy to chat. I'm jesse at keyboard.io

urza 13y ago

Somebody please do microsoft's Natural keyboard with Cherry MX Clear keys. And fixed transceiver. That would solve it for me.

brendoncrawford 13y ago

"Ergonomic" has become a great buzzword. These keyboards are not ergonomic. While they protect against ulnar deviation, they do not protect against pronation and dorsiflexion. Note that you WILL still get RSI from using these keyboards.

dpark 13y ago
> "Ergonomic" has become a great buzzword. These keyboards are not ergonomic. "Ergonomic" is not a binary switch. A thing is not simply "ergonomic" or not. And more importantly, what is ergonomic varies based on the user. For the author, these keyboards are presumably more ergonomic than alternatives. For you, they might not be. > Note that you WILL still get RSI from using these keyboards. That's a rather strong claim, especially considering that many people never get RSI even from standard keyboards.
- brendoncrawford 13y ago
  Good points. This is a very cool project, and it will be fun to watch it progress.
obrajesse 13y ago
I use 'ergonomic' to describe the general category of keyboard. I wouldn't even begin to claim that my keyboards (or ANY keyboard) will protect you from getting RSI. If you have recommendations for better buzzwords, I'm all ears.
- brendoncrawford 13y ago
  Understandable. Thanks for explaining. I will be looking forward to watching this project progress. If you ever make a vertical keyboard, I might buy a lifetime supply :)
  - obrajesse 13y ago
    Thanks :) How do you deal with arm fatigue when using a vertical keyboard?

josh-wrale 13y ago

As a sufferer of carpal tunnel syndrome, I can tell you that this palm rest design is a bad idea. You're focusing the weight of each hand on a pressure point which is sure to contribute to pinching the median nerve. Also, separating the left and right hand boards from one another really helps with joint stress. I saw one of the designs has a axle. Why not just split the keyboard in two completely? I vote for each half of the keyboard having a velcro strap that I can comfortably attach just above each of my knees. For most people, this would be a very neutral posture. In fact, it may even inspire better posture as folks would reach for the keys on their knees.. You know.. You could call it KneeKeyboard or Keys-4-Knees. Then again, I'm sure someone has already done it, but I'm too lazy/busy to look into it right now. Other than those comments. Awesome stuff. Edit: I'd like to add that the wrist pad suggests to me wrist movement is required to reach all of the keys. Again, the carpal tunnel gnome tells me that pivoting my wrist is painful. Why not strive for very little wrist movement. Once you get there, the surface is it's own support, and it would support more than just the wrist; it would support the forearm, too (see knee keyboard suggestion above). I also noticed one of the designs recessed the keys below the face of the keyboard. I think that's a good way to get away from the vertical wrist pivoting. Still, you'd need to mind the lip of the recess, so it's not a high impact point on the wrist.

DonGateley 13y ago

Iteration is the child of patience. Patience is the child of passion.