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The fact that this is being instigated by the federal government makes me suspect that this is deliberate planning for the long-term consequences of american so

The fact that this is being instigated by the federal government makes me suspect that this is deliberate planning for the long-term consequences of american societal breakdown, for when the war on drugs isn't enough to control the ever-growing underclass anymore. Does this kind of thinking still place me firmly with the tinfoil contingent?

redblacktree 13y ago
Yes. It's comforting to think that it's all orchestrated from the top; that means that, even if it's not you, someone is in control of this chaotic world. The truth is much more frightening. No one quite knows what will happen or how to prepare for it, and we'll all likely get screwed when the unexpected happens.
- JonnieCache 13y ago
  I used to religiously apply that view, nobody is in the driving seat, chaos reigns, conspiracy theorists are looking to replace their father, etc etc. These days I try to take more of a balanced perspective. There are many examples of covert malevolent acts in the halls of power throughout history, there was a list of confessed false flag operations on here just the other day. Look into any book about the history of military intelligence and you will find all sorts of nasty adventures. Then there's COINTELPRO, MKULTRA, the FBIs attempt to undermine the civil rights movement, it goes on and on. What would be truly irrational would be to believe that this stuff doesn't happen in the present. So now I try to evaluate each "conspiracy theory" on its own terms, lest I blind myself to the one that turns out to be real. (Note: I still don't actually believe in any specific tinfoilery. I just try to evaluate it honestly. Almost all of it, I still dismiss immediately. Most of the really juicy stuff is right there in the history books anyway.)
  - redblacktree 13y ago
    If you discover a conspiracy that you believe, in absence of proof, what can you do with that information? I stopped trying to "figure it all out" once I realized that there was very little I can do as an individual, even if I am right about some conspiracy.
    - deleted 13y ago
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    - deleted 13y ago
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    - JonnieCache 13y ago
      I suppose I worry that if I dismiss this stuff out of hand, one day I'll be blind to the one for which there is proof, or I'll ignore someone else who with hindsight shouldn't have been ignored. Like rms. But you're probably right, this kind of thinking is largely self-indulgent. EDIT: a little understanding of that kind of political history definitely gives useful context to discourse on current affairs, I think. It is helpful to consider how the events of the present might be seen in 30 or 50 years time, even without knowledge of what occurs between now and then.
      - redblacktree 13y ago
        Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I've been on both sides of this. My current position is really only for the sake of pragmatism. I notice that I enjoy my life a lot more when I'm not worried about all the ways that people are trying to screw me.
  - ahomescu1 13y ago
    There are plenty of separate (in many cases, even conflicting) conspiracies out there, planned by disjoint groups, but the problem is most conspiracy theories make it sound like there's a single global organization behind all of it. I cringe every time I hear "freemasons are secretly ruling the world". False flag operations and COINTELPRO are very far (in terms of likelihood and being believable) from "freemasons/jews/illuminati are behind all of it".
alan_cx 13y ago
Having a so called police force like this is societal breakdown. To me, current US policing looks much like how the Brits patrolled Northern Ireland back in the day, with the army. Only thing the US is missing is check points and road blocks. Don't kid yourselves, the US does not have a police force, it has a domestic army. Only hope Americans have is in the individuals who wear the uniform. Would American uniformed son and daughters, mothers and fathers turn on non uniformed Americans? On the other hand.... If the main government got all evil and what not, couldn't this local police force defend the people with all this hardware? Aren't they all sort of independent, under local state or what ever control? I mean, it we are talking revolution and all that, its not a given who side the police would be on, is it?
- philwelch 13y ago
  I've had these kinds of conversations with military veterans before, actually. It's surprising how libertarian-leaning veterans are. I'm not sure why but I would trust veterans or even active duty military over cops any day. Cops shoot dogs, taze people for fun, pretend to be badasses, and then go home to their families every night. It's the perfect profession for a bully. But serving in the military sucks, they do a better job screening out the psychopaths, and once you've been in combat once or twice you tend to take the whole organized violence thing a little more seriously.
- aidenn0 13y ago
  We already have checkpoints and road-blocks. I got stopped in one on my way home from work last year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_checkpoint#Sobriety_checkpoints http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_checkpoint#Sobriety_chec...
- dingaling 13y ago
  An interesting realisation in Northern Ireland in the mid-1970s was that Army operations had to be brought back under the umbrella of civilian authority. From 1969 to 1977 the Army in NI basically operated independently of the constabulary, with only informal liaison and co-ordination, whilst pursuing their primary mission. But from then onwards the Army was seconded to Security Co-ordinating Commission and was re-orientated towards support of the policeman on the beat. The UK Government had realised that soldiers having unregulated police-like powers over people was counter-productive, and the response was to re-establish the 'primacy of the constabulary' to give some faith in the justice system. If you were arrested, it was by a police officer with his number visible on his lapel.
marcosdumay 13y ago
It's interesting that the drugs are much more effective in controlling an underclass than the US war on drugs will ever be.

redblacktree 13y ago

Yes. It's comforting to think that it's all orchestrated from the top; that means that, even if it's not you, someone is in control of this chaotic world. The truth is much more frightening. No one quite knows what will happen or how to prepare for it, and we'll all likely get screwed when the unexpected happens.

JonnieCache 13y ago
I used to religiously apply that view, nobody is in the driving seat, chaos reigns, conspiracy theorists are looking to replace their father, etc etc. These days I try to take more of a balanced perspective. There are many examples of covert malevolent acts in the halls of power throughout history, there was a list of confessed false flag operations on here just the other day. Look into any book about the history of military intelligence and you will find all sorts of nasty adventures. Then there's COINTELPRO, MKULTRA, the FBIs attempt to undermine the civil rights movement, it goes on and on. What would be truly irrational would be to believe that this stuff doesn't happen in the present. So now I try to evaluate each "conspiracy theory" on its own terms, lest I blind myself to the one that turns out to be real. (Note: I still don't actually believe in any specific tinfoilery. I just try to evaluate it honestly. Almost all of it, I still dismiss immediately. Most of the really juicy stuff is right there in the history books anyway.)
- redblacktree 13y ago
  If you discover a conspiracy that you believe, in absence of proof, what can you do with that information? I stopped trying to "figure it all out" once I realized that there was very little I can do as an individual, even if I am right about some conspiracy.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - JonnieCache 13y ago
    I suppose I worry that if I dismiss this stuff out of hand, one day I'll be blind to the one for which there is proof, or I'll ignore someone else who with hindsight shouldn't have been ignored. Like rms. But you're probably right, this kind of thinking is largely self-indulgent. EDIT: a little understanding of that kind of political history definitely gives useful context to discourse on current affairs, I think. It is helpful to consider how the events of the present might be seen in 30 or 50 years time, even without knowledge of what occurs between now and then.
    - redblacktree 13y ago
      Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I've been on both sides of this. My current position is really only for the sake of pragmatism. I notice that I enjoy my life a lot more when I'm not worried about all the ways that people are trying to screw me.
- ahomescu1 13y ago
  There are plenty of separate (in many cases, even conflicting) conspiracies out there, planned by disjoint groups, but the problem is most conspiracy theories make it sound like there's a single global organization behind all of it. I cringe every time I hear "freemasons are secretly ruling the world". False flag operations and COINTELPRO are very far (in terms of likelihood and being believable) from "freemasons/jews/illuminati are behind all of it".

alan_cx 13y ago

Having a so called police force like this is societal breakdown. To me, current US policing looks much like how the Brits patrolled Northern Ireland back in the day, with the army. Only thing the US is missing is check points and road blocks. Don't kid yourselves, the US does not have a police force, it has a domestic army. Only hope Americans have is in the individuals who wear the uniform. Would American uniformed son and daughters, mothers and fathers turn on non uniformed Americans? On the other hand.... If the main government got all evil and what not, couldn't this local police force defend the people with all this hardware? Aren't they all sort of independent, under local state or what ever control? I mean, it we are talking revolution and all that, its not a given who side the police would be on, is it?

philwelch 13y ago
I've had these kinds of conversations with military veterans before, actually. It's surprising how libertarian-leaning veterans are. I'm not sure why but I would trust veterans or even active duty military over cops any day. Cops shoot dogs, taze people for fun, pretend to be badasses, and then go home to their families every night. It's the perfect profession for a bully. But serving in the military sucks, they do a better job screening out the psychopaths, and once you've been in combat once or twice you tend to take the whole organized violence thing a little more seriously.
aidenn0 13y ago
We already have checkpoints and road-blocks. I got stopped in one on my way home from work last year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_checkpoint#Sobriety_checkpoints http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_checkpoint#Sobriety_chec...
dingaling 13y ago
An interesting realisation in Northern Ireland in the mid-1970s was that Army operations had to be brought back under the umbrella of civilian authority. From 1969 to 1977 the Army in NI basically operated independently of the constabulary, with only informal liaison and co-ordination, whilst pursuing their primary mission. But from then onwards the Army was seconded to Security Co-ordinating Commission and was re-orientated towards support of the policeman on the beat. The UK Government had realised that soldiers having unregulated police-like powers over people was counter-productive, and the response was to re-establish the 'primacy of the constabulary' to give some faith in the justice system. If you were arrested, it was by a police officer with his number visible on his lapel.

marcosdumay 13y ago

It's interesting that the drugs are much more effective in controlling an underclass than the US war on drugs will ever be.