11 ms·

I see it as basic economics, with a history going back as far as biblical times. The real first world problem is looking at this as depraved when in fact it's a

by yogo 13y ago

I see it as basic economics, with a history going back as far as biblical times. The real first world problem is looking at this as depraved when in fact it's a real business, with a real demand, that makes money versus some shitty startup.

bayesianhorse 13y ago
No. Sex trade is never "basic economics". Sexuality is always a big part of the identity, so much so, that violating sexual self-determination leaves victims scarred for life. And yes, sex-cams count. Some models might enjoy this, or are neutral about it. Others don't have an alternative or are even forced, directly or indirectly to do it. All this "basic economics" talk tries to obscure the exploitation that is necessary to provide sex labor at "acceptable" prices. Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  > All this "basic economics" talk tries to obscure the exploitation that is necessary to provide sex labor at "acceptable" prices. Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp. Good grief. Good or bad, porn and prostitution are not rape crimes and shouldn't be passed off as such.
  - lewi 13y ago
    Exactly this. I feel as thought op's definition of rape is slightly skewed or that all sex work is viewed as involuntary. Which is not the case. Some use it as a supplementary income, some as their primary job and others may use it to valid their self worth. These do not equate to rape.
    - weland 13y ago
      Is there such a considerable difference between being coerced into sex using the threat of a gun held to one's temple and being coerced into sex using the threat of starving tomorrow? Granted, not all sex work is involuntary, but don't delude yourself thinking it's a voluntary choice in poor countries.
      - mseebach 13y ago
        Yes, there is all the difference in the world. "The threat of starving tomorrow" is not a condition invented by ruthless capitalist patriarchs or whatever the claptrap of the day is, it's the basis of the human condition for all but the last ~20 minutes of the species' time on this planet. The fact that in most rich countries we generally, mostly can expect to eat tomorrow no matter what happens is still a state of unimaginable luxury for a large portion of the planet's population (although quickly shrinking). The idea that everybody should be free to do (and especially not do) whatever they please without ever suffering adverse consequences is still a fantasy for most, even in the rich part of the world. Using it as some sort of objective universal yardstick next to having a gun to your head is lacking proportions on an epic scale.
        weland 13y ago
        > "The threat of starving tomorrow" is not a condition invented by ruthless capitalist patriarchs No, but when ruthless capitlist patriarchs or whatever intervene with their money in order to maintain its status quo, the difference begins to fade. Or did you think the girls came up with the money for the studios by themselves? That unless they come up with a steady cashflow for the studio, they're not back wherever they came from? Yes, there's a legitimate business need for what they do, but I find it difficult to shake off the feeling that the investors behind the studios would be so quick to invest in, say, education.
        mseebach 13y ago
        You're changing the subject. You were comparing the coercion by direct deadly force to coercion by needing a job to eat. I'm sure the people who run such a studio are not God's best children, but if they're not threatening physical violence, it's not comparable to threatening physical violence, not matter how much you'd like them to invest in schools instead.
        weland 13y ago
        I'm not saying the people who run such a studio are doing the coercion directly, obviously. They're simply taking advantage of it. The fact that the advantage they are taking is primarily economic in nature does little to change the ethical matters. They act as intermediaries to people who gain advantages that are not only economic.
    - bayesianhorse 13y ago
      I highly doubt that most johns would be able to tell if they are raping a girl or if they are using a prostitute. A little hint: Forced Prostitution does not necessarily mean that the girls run around with bruises all the time. Flirting behavior or turning on a customer isn't proof there is no coercion involved. Pimps do believe in employee education, you know...
      - philh 13y ago
        > I highly doubt that most johns would be able to tell if they are raping a girl or if they are using a prostitute. There is a massive ethical (and I believe legal) difference between having sex with someone who you believe is consenting (even if just for money), and having sex with someone who you believe is not consenting.
        bayesianhorse 13y ago
        Ignorance is usually not a very good moral defense. In the context of prostitution, real or faked ignorance proves highly effective, though...
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    Prostitution is mostly rape and should be regarded as such. Underage prostitutes (which are extremely common in Europe) can't consent. Drug addicts can't really consent. Illegal immigrants can't really consent (because they can't refuse). Prostitutes that are kept in a slave-like relationship can't really consent. In richer countries the price you would have to pay even a low-income woman to do this would be so high, that almost noone would pay it. This "economic" gap is then filled by employers who manage to hold the "cost of labor" down by any means neccessary. Yes, there is such a thing as completely voluntary prostitution. But the johns can't tell which from which. Especially in the lower price ranges you just have to assume a certain degree of exploitation and abuse from pimps if not from the johns...
    - bjourne 13y ago
      > Underage prostitutes (which are extremely common in Europe) can't consent. You better define "extremely common" or come up with a proper reference for that claim.
      - route66 13y ago
        "You better..." signals hat you don't agree because the quoted line does not fit your worldview. Meybe "You better" come with some support for whatever point you want to make? Meanwhile: http://beta.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/greece.html http://beta.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/greece.ht... http://beta.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/hungary.html http://beta.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/hungary.h... http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/20496.php http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/20496.php
        bjourne 13y ago
        The null hypothesis of course. None of your links supports the "extremely common" statement, nice try though.
        bayesianhorse 13y ago
- olalonde 13y ago
  I think your comment could be very offensive to a victim of rape. Women who are forced to have sex are not prostitutes.
  - rsynnott 13y ago
    However, many prostitutes are forced to have sex.
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    That argument is an abusive and deliberate attempt at misunderstanding my point. That I believe a big portion of all prostitutes are rape victims simply does not make a prostitute out of any individually rape victim. Rape, or sexual abuse, has a large variation. From simple touching (minors) to fatal gang rapes. But there is really no ambiguity: Having sex with a woman against her own will - even a prostitute, a passed out drunk, or your own wife - is rape. Should renting out the "rape privilege" make rape legal?
    - olalonde 13y ago
      "Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp" seemed to imply that you made no distinction between prostitutes and rape victims. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It seems unlikely to me that a "big portion of all prostitutes are rape victims" but I guess we are stuck with anecdotal evidence at this point and discussing it further won't help.
      - bayesianhorse 13y ago
        It's certainly your right to ignore any evidence to the contrary. Otherwise, wikipedia is a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution There is a big uncertainty about how much prostitution is involuntary, and to the degree of coercion involved. There can be no doubt however, that coercion is a visible and very significant part of the sex industry. So much so that no "customer" can assume a particular prostitute to be a consenting adult beyond reasonable doubt.
coldtea 13y ago
>I see it as basic economics, with a history going back as far as biblical times. The same could be said for slavery.
- olalonde 13y ago
  The same could be said of all economic activities going back to biblical times. What's your point?
  - coldtea 13y ago
    My point is that (1) "has been going on for ages" and (2) "is an economic activy" are not sufficient qualifiers to show that something is (3) OK to go one and/or good and/or beneficial to society. (Which was part of the argument the parent made). I used the slave trade as an counter-example to his point, because while it qualifies (1) and (2), most people will agree that it's not OK.
    - jdimov 13y ago
      What is beneficial to society is none of your competence, so you would do wise to refrain from such comments.
      - coldtea 13y ago
        >What is beneficial to society is none of your competence, so you would do wise to refrain from such comments Perhaps you are not current with this ancient Greek notion called "democracy". Its premise is that "what is beneficial to society" is _everybody's_ competence and everybody can, nay should, have his say on the matter. (Of course, there are other trains of thought, from Plato to Nietzche and Hitler, that run counter to this idea, perhaps you subscribe to them. Or to some second-rate, provincial, version of them, like Rand). In any case, it would be wise for you to refrain from silly advice such as the above.
    - Tloewald 13y ago
      Seems to me that the story was mainly upside. Romania gets foreign cash and internet infrastructure. Lonely guys in north america get some companionship (real friendship in the case of the southern gay guy who is trying to come out to his family) and young romanians earn some money. Is this ideal? Hardly. But you know it will happen, and the models seem to be being treated decently.

by yogo 13y ago

bayesianhorse 13y ago

No. Sex trade is never "basic economics". Sexuality is always a big part of the identity, so much so, that violating sexual self-determination leaves victims scarred for life. And yes, sex-cams count. Some models might enjoy this, or are neutral about it. Others don't have an alternative or are even forced, directly or indirectly to do it. All this "basic economics" talk tries to obscure the exploitation that is necessary to provide sex labor at "acceptable" prices. Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
> All this "basic economics" talk tries to obscure the exploitation that is necessary to provide sex labor at "acceptable" prices. Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp. Good grief. Good or bad, porn and prostitution are not rape crimes and shouldn't be passed off as such.
- lewi 13y ago
  Exactly this. I feel as thought op's definition of rape is slightly skewed or that all sex work is viewed as involuntary. Which is not the case. Some use it as a supplementary income, some as their primary job and others may use it to valid their self worth. These do not equate to rape.
  - weland 13y ago
    Is there such a considerable difference between being coerced into sex using the threat of a gun held to one's temple and being coerced into sex using the threat of starving tomorrow? Granted, not all sex work is involuntary, but don't delude yourself thinking it's a voluntary choice in poor countries.
    - mseebach 13y ago
      Yes, there is all the difference in the world. "The threat of starving tomorrow" is not a condition invented by ruthless capitalist patriarchs or whatever the claptrap of the day is, it's the basis of the human condition for all but the last ~20 minutes of the species' time on this planet. The fact that in most rich countries we generally, mostly can expect to eat tomorrow no matter what happens is still a state of unimaginable luxury for a large portion of the planet's population (although quickly shrinking). The idea that everybody should be free to do (and especially not do) whatever they please without ever suffering adverse consequences is still a fantasy for most, even in the rich part of the world. Using it as some sort of objective universal yardstick next to having a gun to your head is lacking proportions on an epic scale.
      - weland 13y ago
        > "The threat of starving tomorrow" is not a condition invented by ruthless capitalist patriarchs No, but when ruthless capitlist patriarchs or whatever intervene with their money in order to maintain its status quo, the difference begins to fade. Or did you think the girls came up with the money for the studios by themselves? That unless they come up with a steady cashflow for the studio, they're not back wherever they came from? Yes, there's a legitimate business need for what they do, but I find it difficult to shake off the feeling that the investors behind the studios would be so quick to invest in, say, education.
        mseebach 13y ago
        You're changing the subject. You were comparing the coercion by direct deadly force to coercion by needing a job to eat. I'm sure the people who run such a studio are not God's best children, but if they're not threatening physical violence, it's not comparable to threatening physical violence, not matter how much you'd like them to invest in schools instead.
        weland 13y ago
        I'm not saying the people who run such a studio are doing the coercion directly, obviously. They're simply taking advantage of it. The fact that the advantage they are taking is primarily economic in nature does little to change the ethical matters. They act as intermediaries to people who gain advantages that are not only economic.
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    I highly doubt that most johns would be able to tell if they are raping a girl or if they are using a prostitute. A little hint: Forced Prostitution does not necessarily mean that the girls run around with bruises all the time. Flirting behavior or turning on a customer isn't proof there is no coercion involved. Pimps do believe in employee education, you know...
    - philh 13y ago
      > I highly doubt that most johns would be able to tell if they are raping a girl or if they are using a prostitute. There is a massive ethical (and I believe legal) difference between having sex with someone who you believe is consenting (even if just for money), and having sex with someone who you believe is not consenting.
      - bayesianhorse 13y ago
        Ignorance is usually not a very good moral defense. In the context of prostitution, real or faked ignorance proves highly effective, though...
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  Prostitution is mostly rape and should be regarded as such. Underage prostitutes (which are extremely common in Europe) can't consent. Drug addicts can't really consent. Illegal immigrants can't really consent (because they can't refuse). Prostitutes that are kept in a slave-like relationship can't really consent. In richer countries the price you would have to pay even a low-income woman to do this would be so high, that almost noone would pay it. This "economic" gap is then filled by employers who manage to hold the "cost of labor" down by any means neccessary. Yes, there is such a thing as completely voluntary prostitution. But the johns can't tell which from which. Especially in the lower price ranges you just have to assume a certain degree of exploitation and abuse from pimps if not from the johns...
  - bjourne 13y ago
    > Underage prostitutes (which are extremely common in Europe) can't consent. You better define "extremely common" or come up with a proper reference for that claim.
    - route66 13y ago
      "You better..." signals hat you don't agree because the quoted line does not fit your worldview. Meybe "You better" come with some support for whatever point you want to make? Meanwhile: http://beta.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/greece.html http://beta.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/greece.ht... http://beta.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/hungary.html http://beta.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/hungary.h... http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/20496.php http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/20496.php
      - bjourne 13y ago
        The null hypothesis of course. None of your links supports the "extremely common" statement, nice try though.
        bayesianhorse 13y ago
olalonde 13y ago
I think your comment could be very offensive to a victim of rape. Women who are forced to have sex are not prostitutes.
- rsynnott 13y ago
  However, many prostitutes are forced to have sex.
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  That argument is an abusive and deliberate attempt at misunderstanding my point. That I believe a big portion of all prostitutes are rape victims simply does not make a prostitute out of any individually rape victim. Rape, or sexual abuse, has a large variation. From simple touching (minors) to fatal gang rapes. But there is really no ambiguity: Having sex with a woman against her own will - even a prostitute, a passed out drunk, or your own wife - is rape. Should renting out the "rape privilege" make rape legal?
  - olalonde 13y ago
    "Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp" seemed to imply that you made no distinction between prostitutes and rape victims. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It seems unlikely to me that a "big portion of all prostitutes are rape victims" but I guess we are stuck with anecdotal evidence at this point and discussing it further won't help.
    - bayesianhorse 13y ago
      It's certainly your right to ignore any evidence to the contrary. Otherwise, wikipedia is a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution There is a big uncertainty about how much prostitution is involuntary, and to the degree of coercion involved. There can be no doubt however, that coercion is a visible and very significant part of the sex industry. So much so that no "customer" can assume a particular prostitute to be a consenting adult beyond reasonable doubt.

coldtea 13y ago

>I see it as basic economics, with a history going back as far as biblical times. The same could be said for slavery.

olalonde 13y ago
The same could be said of all economic activities going back to biblical times. What's your point?
- coldtea 13y ago
  My point is that (1) "has been going on for ages" and (2) "is an economic activy" are not sufficient qualifiers to show that something is (3) OK to go one and/or good and/or beneficial to society. (Which was part of the argument the parent made). I used the slave trade as an counter-example to his point, because while it qualifies (1) and (2), most people will agree that it's not OK.
  - jdimov 13y ago
    What is beneficial to society is none of your competence, so you would do wise to refrain from such comments.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      >What is beneficial to society is none of your competence, so you would do wise to refrain from such comments Perhaps you are not current with this ancient Greek notion called "democracy". Its premise is that "what is beneficial to society" is _everybody's_ competence and everybody can, nay should, have his say on the matter. (Of course, there are other trains of thought, from Plato to Nietzche and Hitler, that run counter to this idea, perhaps you subscribe to them. Or to some second-rate, provincial, version of them, like Rand). In any case, it would be wise for you to refrain from silly advice such as the above.
  - Tloewald 13y ago
    Seems to me that the story was mainly upside. Romania gets foreign cash and internet infrastructure. Lonely guys in north america get some companionship (real friendship in the case of the southern gay guy who is trying to come out to his family) and young romanians earn some money. Is this ideal? Hardly. But you know it will happen, and the models seem to be being treated decently.