5 ms·

That was a fascinating, well-written, and yet incredibly sad read. It's easy to lose touch in the relative comfort of the first world, both geographically as we

by pvnick 13y ago

That was a fascinating, well-written, and yet incredibly sad read. It's easy to lose touch in the relative comfort of the first world, both geographically as well as virtually. I loved the comparison to the red light district. Desperately lonely divorced Western men spending a fortune on these young foreign girls and boys for companionship and sexual gratification, and the young folks drawn into whoring out their bodies over the internet just to make rent and buy food. Or, evidently, to squander their money "Gangnam Style" on luxuries to feel rich. The whole thing reaches a level of depravity almost to the point of absurdity. Interestingly enough, Romania turns out to have among the fastest average broadband connection speeds in the world [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Romania#Average_Speed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Romania#Average_Spe...

yogo 13y ago
I see it as basic economics, with a history going back as far as biblical times. The real first world problem is looking at this as depraved when in fact it's a real business, with a real demand, that makes money versus some shitty startup.
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  No. Sex trade is never "basic economics". Sexuality is always a big part of the identity, so much so, that violating sexual self-determination leaves victims scarred for life. And yes, sex-cams count. Some models might enjoy this, or are neutral about it. Others don't have an alternative or are even forced, directly or indirectly to do it. All this "basic economics" talk tries to obscure the exploitation that is necessary to provide sex labor at "acceptable" prices. Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    > All this "basic economics" talk tries to obscure the exploitation that is necessary to provide sex labor at "acceptable" prices. Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp. Good grief. Good or bad, porn and prostitution are not rape crimes and shouldn't be passed off as such.
    - lewi 13y ago
      Exactly this. I feel as thought op's definition of rape is slightly skewed or that all sex work is viewed as involuntary. Which is not the case. Some use it as a supplementary income, some as their primary job and others may use it to valid their self worth. These do not equate to rape.
      - weland 13y ago
        Is there such a considerable difference between being coerced into sex using the threat of a gun held to one's temple and being coerced into sex using the threat of starving tomorrow? Granted, not all sex work is involuntary, but don't delude yourself thinking it's a voluntary choice in poor countries.
        mseebach 13y ago
        Yes, there is all the difference in the world. "The threat of starving tomorrow" is not a condition invented by ruthless capitalist patriarchs or whatever the claptrap of the day is, it's the basis of the human condition for all but the last ~20 minutes of the species' time on this planet. The fact that in most rich countries we generally, mostly can expect to eat tomorrow no matter what happens is still a state of unimaginable luxury for a large portion of the planet's population (although quickly shrinking). The idea that everybody should be free to do (and especially not do) whatever they please without ever suffering adverse consequences is still a fantasy for most, even in the rich part of the world. Using it as some sort of objective universal yardstick next to having a gun to your head is lacking proportions on an epic scale.
        weland 13y ago
        > "The threat of starving tomorrow" is not a condition invented by ruthless capitalist patriarchs No, but when ruthless capitlist patriarchs or whatever intervene with their money in order to maintain its status quo, the difference begins to fade. Or did you think the girls came up with the money for the studios by themselves? That unless they come up with a steady cashflow for the studio, they're not back wherever they came from? Yes, there's a legitimate business need for what they do, but I find it difficult to shake off the feeling that the investors behind the studios would be so quick to invest in, say, education.
  - olalonde 13y ago
    I think your comment could be very offensive to a victim of rape. Women who are forced to have sex are not prostitutes.
    - rsynnott 13y ago
      However, many prostitutes are forced to have sex.
    - bayesianhorse 13y ago
      That argument is an abusive and deliberate attempt at misunderstanding my point. That I believe a big portion of all prostitutes are rape victims simply does not make a prostitute out of any individually rape victim. Rape, or sexual abuse, has a large variation. From simple touching (minors) to fatal gang rapes. But there is really no ambiguity: Having sex with a woman against her own will - even a prostitute, a passed out drunk, or your own wife - is rape. Should renting out the "rape privilege" make rape legal?
      - olalonde 13y ago
        "Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp" seemed to imply that you made no distinction between prostitutes and rape victims. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It seems unlikely to me that a "big portion of all prostitutes are rape victims" but I guess we are stuck with anecdotal evidence at this point and discussing it further won't help.
        bayesianhorse 13y ago
        It's certainly your right to ignore any evidence to the contrary. Otherwise, wikipedia is a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution There is a big uncertainty about how much prostitution is involuntary, and to the degree of coercion involved. There can be no doubt however, that coercion is a visible and very significant part of the sex industry. So much so that no "customer" can assume a particular prostitute to be a consenting adult beyond reasonable doubt.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >I see it as basic economics, with a history going back as far as biblical times. The same could be said for slavery.
  - olalonde 13y ago
    The same could be said of all economic activities going back to biblical times. What's your point?
    - coldtea 13y ago
      My point is that (1) "has been going on for ages" and (2) "is an economic activy" are not sufficient qualifiers to show that something is (3) OK to go one and/or good and/or beneficial to society. (Which was part of the argument the parent made). I used the slave trade as an counter-example to his point, because while it qualifies (1) and (2), most people will agree that it's not OK.
      - jdimov 13y ago
        What is beneficial to society is none of your competence, so you would do wise to refrain from such comments.
        coldtea 13y ago
        >What is beneficial to society is none of your competence, so you would do wise to refrain from such comments Perhaps you are not current with this ancient Greek notion called "democracy". Its premise is that "what is beneficial to society" is _everybody's_ competence and everybody can, nay should, have his say on the matter. (Of course, there are other trains of thought, from Plato to Nietzche and Hitler, that run counter to this idea, perhaps you subscribe to them. Or to some second-rate, provincial, version of them, like Rand). In any case, it would be wise for you to refrain from silly advice such as the above.
      - Tloewald 13y ago
        Seems to me that the story was mainly upside. Romania gets foreign cash and internet infrastructure. Lonely guys in north america get some companionship (real friendship in the case of the southern gay guy who is trying to come out to his family) and young romanians earn some money. Is this ideal? Hardly. But you know it will happen, and the models seem to be being treated decently.
iuguy 13y ago
Part of the reason they squander the money is similar to many from former Soviet countries. The Soviets took wealth from people to redistribute it. Especially towards the end of the Soviet Union many people were exceptionally poor and struggling to get food without using the black market. For many people out towards that end of the world, a sense of enjoying what you have today because it might all be taken away from you tomorrow is pretty much the norm.
- gexla 13y ago
  I think it's more simple than that. The idea of "nobody thinks about tomorrow" is common in the Philippines as well. I think it's more a lack of education. When you haven't had money and your parents haven't had money, then you don't really know how to handle it. It's the same with family planning. Since having lots of kids is the norm, people don't think much of it (not to mention that birth control is an extra expense for people already tight on cash.) It's not until someone can break out numbers, charts, graphs and help these people understand the basics of thriving in a modern economy that they will begin to make better choices. Also, are people in the U.S. really that much different? How many people have the skills and discipline to properly plan for retirement or an emergency? Sure, many people are just scraping by. For many people in the middle class, their monthly budget just swells to eat up their pay. I remember a lot of friends right out of high school landing well paying labor jobs (while everyone else was poor and going to college) and blowing it all on trucks and big boy toys. This is an extreme example, but what percentage of high paid pro athletes go broke within 5 years after they quit playing? Big lotto winners? Budgeting is one of those life tasks which can be very simple, but still difficult for many people. Time management is another. The brain sometimes has difficulty dealing with these abstract things. These people don't do well unless you constrain them. Their budgets are constrained by what they bring home. Their time management is constrained by punching a clock and given specific tasks to do within certain times. Show up at X time. Take a lunch at X time. Leave at X time. In between, stand in X spot and deal with customers. Give them a vague job like running a business where they have to plan their own day and they would probably fall apart.
  - vidarh 13y ago
josu 13y ago
>Total number of active providers, as of Dec 31 2007: 1338 That's the reason why Romania has one of the fastest broadband connections.

by pvnick 13y ago

yogo 13y ago

I see it as basic economics, with a history going back as far as biblical times. The real first world problem is looking at this as depraved when in fact it's a real business, with a real demand, that makes money versus some shitty startup.

bayesianhorse 13y ago
No. Sex trade is never "basic economics". Sexuality is always a big part of the identity, so much so, that violating sexual self-determination leaves victims scarred for life. And yes, sex-cams count. Some models might enjoy this, or are neutral about it. Others don't have an alternative or are even forced, directly or indirectly to do it. All this "basic economics" talk tries to obscure the exploitation that is necessary to provide sex labor at "acceptable" prices. Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  > All this "basic economics" talk tries to obscure the exploitation that is necessary to provide sex labor at "acceptable" prices. Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp. Good grief. Good or bad, porn and prostitution are not rape crimes and shouldn't be passed off as such.
  - lewi 13y ago
    Exactly this. I feel as thought op's definition of rape is slightly skewed or that all sex work is viewed as involuntary. Which is not the case. Some use it as a supplementary income, some as their primary job and others may use it to valid their self worth. These do not equate to rape.
    - weland 13y ago
      Is there such a considerable difference between being coerced into sex using the threat of a gun held to one's temple and being coerced into sex using the threat of starving tomorrow? Granted, not all sex work is involuntary, but don't delude yourself thinking it's a voluntary choice in poor countries.
      - mseebach 13y ago
        Yes, there is all the difference in the world. "The threat of starving tomorrow" is not a condition invented by ruthless capitalist patriarchs or whatever the claptrap of the day is, it's the basis of the human condition for all but the last ~20 minutes of the species' time on this planet. The fact that in most rich countries we generally, mostly can expect to eat tomorrow no matter what happens is still a state of unimaginable luxury for a large portion of the planet's population (although quickly shrinking). The idea that everybody should be free to do (and especially not do) whatever they please without ever suffering adverse consequences is still a fantasy for most, even in the rich part of the world. Using it as some sort of objective universal yardstick next to having a gun to your head is lacking proportions on an epic scale.
        weland 13y ago
        > "The threat of starving tomorrow" is not a condition invented by ruthless capitalist patriarchs No, but when ruthless capitlist patriarchs or whatever intervene with their money in order to maintain its status quo, the difference begins to fade. Or did you think the girls came up with the money for the studios by themselves? That unless they come up with a steady cashflow for the studio, they're not back wherever they came from? Yes, there's a legitimate business need for what they do, but I find it difficult to shake off the feeling that the investors behind the studios would be so quick to invest in, say, education.
- olalonde 13y ago
  I think your comment could be very offensive to a victim of rape. Women who are forced to have sex are not prostitutes.
  - rsynnott 13y ago
    However, many prostitutes are forced to have sex.
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    That argument is an abusive and deliberate attempt at misunderstanding my point. That I believe a big portion of all prostitutes are rape victims simply does not make a prostitute out of any individually rape victim. Rape, or sexual abuse, has a large variation. From simple touching (minors) to fatal gang rapes. But there is really no ambiguity: Having sex with a woman against her own will - even a prostitute, a passed out drunk, or your own wife - is rape. Should renting out the "rape privilege" make rape legal?
    - olalonde 13y ago
      "Rape is rape, whatever you pay the pimp" seemed to imply that you made no distinction between prostitutes and rape victims. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It seems unlikely to me that a "big portion of all prostitutes are rape victims" but I guess we are stuck with anecdotal evidence at this point and discussing it further won't help.
      - bayesianhorse 13y ago
        It's certainly your right to ignore any evidence to the contrary. Otherwise, wikipedia is a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_prostitution There is a big uncertainty about how much prostitution is involuntary, and to the degree of coercion involved. There can be no doubt however, that coercion is a visible and very significant part of the sex industry. So much so that no "customer" can assume a particular prostitute to be a consenting adult beyond reasonable doubt.
coldtea 13y ago
>I see it as basic economics, with a history going back as far as biblical times. The same could be said for slavery.
- olalonde 13y ago
  The same could be said of all economic activities going back to biblical times. What's your point?
  - coldtea 13y ago
    My point is that (1) "has been going on for ages" and (2) "is an economic activy" are not sufficient qualifiers to show that something is (3) OK to go one and/or good and/or beneficial to society. (Which was part of the argument the parent made). I used the slave trade as an counter-example to his point, because while it qualifies (1) and (2), most people will agree that it's not OK.
    - jdimov 13y ago
      What is beneficial to society is none of your competence, so you would do wise to refrain from such comments.
      - coldtea 13y ago
        >What is beneficial to society is none of your competence, so you would do wise to refrain from such comments Perhaps you are not current with this ancient Greek notion called "democracy". Its premise is that "what is beneficial to society" is _everybody's_ competence and everybody can, nay should, have his say on the matter. (Of course, there are other trains of thought, from Plato to Nietzche and Hitler, that run counter to this idea, perhaps you subscribe to them. Or to some second-rate, provincial, version of them, like Rand). In any case, it would be wise for you to refrain from silly advice such as the above.
    - Tloewald 13y ago
      Seems to me that the story was mainly upside. Romania gets foreign cash and internet infrastructure. Lonely guys in north america get some companionship (real friendship in the case of the southern gay guy who is trying to come out to his family) and young romanians earn some money. Is this ideal? Hardly. But you know it will happen, and the models seem to be being treated decently.

iuguy 13y ago

Part of the reason they squander the money is similar to many from former Soviet countries. The Soviets took wealth from people to redistribute it. Especially towards the end of the Soviet Union many people were exceptionally poor and struggling to get food without using the black market. For many people out towards that end of the world, a sense of enjoying what you have today because it might all be taken away from you tomorrow is pretty much the norm.

gexla 13y ago
I think it's more simple than that. The idea of "nobody thinks about tomorrow" is common in the Philippines as well. I think it's more a lack of education. When you haven't had money and your parents haven't had money, then you don't really know how to handle it. It's the same with family planning. Since having lots of kids is the norm, people don't think much of it (not to mention that birth control is an extra expense for people already tight on cash.) It's not until someone can break out numbers, charts, graphs and help these people understand the basics of thriving in a modern economy that they will begin to make better choices. Also, are people in the U.S. really that much different? How many people have the skills and discipline to properly plan for retirement or an emergency? Sure, many people are just scraping by. For many people in the middle class, their monthly budget just swells to eat up their pay. I remember a lot of friends right out of high school landing well paying labor jobs (while everyone else was poor and going to college) and blowing it all on trucks and big boy toys. This is an extreme example, but what percentage of high paid pro athletes go broke within 5 years after they quit playing? Big lotto winners? Budgeting is one of those life tasks which can be very simple, but still difficult for many people. Time management is another. The brain sometimes has difficulty dealing with these abstract things. These people don't do well unless you constrain them. Their budgets are constrained by what they bring home. Their time management is constrained by punching a clock and given specific tasks to do within certain times. Show up at X time. Take a lunch at X time. Leave at X time. In between, stand in X spot and deal with customers. Give them a vague job like running a business where they have to plan their own day and they would probably fall apart.
- vidarh 13y ago

josu 13y ago

>Total number of active providers, as of Dec 31 2007: 1338 That's the reason why Romania has one of the fastest broadband connections.