6 ms·

Measles Cases Triple in U.S., Vaccine Refusal Here and Elsewhere to Blame

58 points by grannyg00se 13y ago

adventured 13y ago
This kind of behavior needs to be publicly shamed and banished back to the pre-industrial age. Immense social pressure should be brought to bear. Failure to vaccinate your children against something like measles should be viewed as one notch down from child abuse. I'd also support eliminating all public welfare programs for people that refuse core vaccinations. If you want to be a voluntary threat to society, you shouldn't get to piggy back on it. It's beyond an absurdity that America should be drifting backwards on something like this, given the progress we've made in the last century toward understanding why/how vaccines work. Gates will help eliminate polio in India, just as we're reacquiring it here.
- Retric 13y ago
  I support Murder charges for anyone failing to vaccinate there children resulting in an infection and death even if it's indirect. Aka your kid infects Sam who infects Bob who dies, your now up on Murder charges.
  - TallGuyShort 13y ago
    That's extreme. Vaccines are not without risks, even if they vast majority of society believes they're tiny risks with massive benefits. By all means seek to educate people, use public funds to subsidize them, but murder charges because you refuse to inject a substance in your child's body? No. edit: I'm biased because yesterday my daughter had a mild reaction to a vaccine that was not listed on any of the information materials our doctor had given us. But believe me that's a bias I'll take to my grave. I'm not going to refuse all vaccines over that - but it's never your decision to make for us.
    - lemming 13y ago
      It is an extreme view, but I disagree with your assessment that it should be entirely the parents' choice. In not vaccinating a child, parents are not just making a decision about their own child, they're making a decision that can potentially affect many other people's children too. At least where I live, education is compulsory and vaccination is not, so it's illegal to refuse entry to a school based on vaccination status - I think this is wrong. I would like to be able to choose to send my children to a school where I feel like parents are taking responsible steps to not just protect their own children but those around them as well. I'm also biased because I live near a town with a large hippie population and very low rates of vaccination for things like whooping cough. For the last two years there has been an outbreak of whooping cough, our doctor was pleased that they hadn't had a new case in two weeks. The child of a friend of my parents died age 1 1/2 from whooping cough. For young children the vaccination takes 3 injections over a course of months as they build up immunity - it's a dangerous thing, and I know people who think twice about taking newborn children outside here. If my child died of whooping cough (or something similar) because people around me didn't feel like being responsible members of society, you'd better believe I'd feel like pressing manslaughter charges. Whether I actually could or not is another matter, but it would feel massively unjust if I couldn't.
      - TallGuyShort 13y ago
        I understand your reason for "bias" as well, and I agree it's unfortunate. But let's take the flu as an example. People die from that, but are all the people who didn't get a flu-shot responsible? Do you take into account how often the victims washed their hands, and how well they developed their immune systems beforehand? And who's going to be deciding what vaccinations are and aren't required? My doctor's recommendations change all the time based on the latest evidence. Why are we even suggesting removing an individuals right to make their own decision based on their own research? Yes, you can label it as "irresponsible" and I'd probably agree, but setting a precedent that the government can mandate that you inject you and your child with an agent derived from lethal diseases? That's not many steps away from mandatory abortions for undesirable genetic traits.
        lemming 13y ago
  - robryk 13y ago
    Killing someone while driving and texting isn't murder in most (all?) jurisdictions AFAIK.
    - aestra 13y ago
      Wow, Yes of course it is! Usually it it is coded under law as vehicular manslaughter; generally, it involves death that results from the negligent operation of a vehicle. Same as if you killed someone while drinking and driving or if you just decided to run them over cause you were driving recklessly. Anyone can be charged with murder even if there isn't a specific vehicular manslaughter statue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_homicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_homicide Oh yeah, and if you don't believe me: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_jersey&id=9297034 http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_jer... http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/06/justice/massachusetts-texting-trial/ http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/06/justice/massachusetts-texting-... http://host.madison.com/news/local/crime_and_courts/sun-prairie-woman-convicted-of-homicide-by-negligent-driving-for/article_574c611e-d83a-11e1-9778-001a4bcf887a.html http://host.madison.com/news/local/crime_and_courts/sun-prai... http://www.fox11online.com/news/local/fox-cities/little-chute-woman-charged-with-homicide http://www.fox11online.com/news/local/fox-cities/little-chut... http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/anne-arundel-county/woman-charged-in-fatal-textingwhiledriving-crash/-/10137088/22331782/-/gmd3j9/-/index.html http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/anne-arundel-county/woma... http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/woman-who-killed-toddler-in-texting-while-driving-/nD5dm/ http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/woman-who-killed-toddler-in-te... http://www.nbc4i.com/story/20746093/1st-vehicular-homicide-while-texting-case-indicted-in-franklin-co http://www.nbc4i.com/story/20746093/1st-vehicular-homicide-w... http://www.mygeorgiadefenselawyer.com/2010/02/12/vehicular-homicide-charges-texting-while-driving/ http://www.mygeorgiadefenselawyer.com/2010/02/12/vehicular-h... Besides, what does vehicular manslaughter have anything to do with this?
      - maxerickson 13y ago
        Manslaughter and murder have separate meanings. Especially in a legal sense.
      - TheCoelacanth 13y ago
  - patrickg_zill 13y ago
    Extreme and stupidly ignorant of how vaccines actually work... no vaccine is 100% effective - the MMR vaccine is claimed 95% effective with 1 dose and near 100% with 2. But the MMR vaccine is one of the oldest and most effective. Other vaccines have as low as 67% immunity (or even worse) - so, out of a class of 30 kids, with 1 kid not vaccinated, there would still be 10 possible "suspects". And you would automatically charge the unvax'ed - turning many of the foundational concepts of law upside down in your hysterical crusade.
    - Retric 13y ago
      Only sick people are disease vectors. So, in a normal outbreak they track who infected whom with a fair amount of accuracy. Granted, nothing is perfect but the legal system is designed for an imperfect world so that's hardly a problem. Also, if for some reason your child can't be vaccinated due to say immune issue well that's a reasonable exception, but trusting in herd immunity while failing to contribute to it is not. Edit: As to why it's important, not vaccinating your children risks their heath, but the larger risks are to society and not you. So, much as vehicular manslaughter is far more serious than a simple speeding ticket if you take the risks and someone dies then it's your fault. Because, despite the fact thousands of people may do the same thing without issue, if you do it and someone dies then your responsible and they where unreasonably risking others lives end of story. PS: Personal responsibility anyone?
      - Crito 13y ago
        > Only sick people are disease vectors. That is not true for the casual meaning of "sick"; Typhoid Mary is the classic example of an asymptomatic carrier. Of course she is also an example of how responsibility can be traced even when asymptomatic carriers are involved, and an example of how negligence and refusal to take measures to prevent the spread of disease is antisocial behavior that can (or even must) be dealt with harshly.
    - Crito 13y ago
      > Extreme and stupidly ignorant of how vaccines actually work... no vaccine is 100% effective - the MMR vaccine is claimed 95% effective with 1 dose and near 100% with 2. But the MMR vaccine is one of the oldest and most effective. Your kid is unvaccinated, should have been, and transmits something to somebody else who is then injured? You should have some degree of liability. Your kid is unvaccinated, could not be vaccinated *(too young, or had an existing medical condition that made it impossible) , and transmits something to somebody else who is then injured? Well, that's a shit situation, but there is not much that should be done in that situation. Your kid is vaccinated, catches something anyway, and transmits something to somebody else who is then injured? Well, that's a shit situation, but there is not much that should be done in that situation. These complexities are not intractable.
- bananacurve 13y ago
  Did you even read the article? Western Europe has 25,000 per year and America has 175 this year mostly from Europeans who don't vaccinate.
  - adventured 13y ago
    Did you? “It is not a failure of the vaccine,” Frieden said. “It’s a failure to vaccinate. Around 90 percent of the people who have had measles in this country were not vaccinated either because they refused, or were not vaccinated on time.”
    - bananacurve 13y ago
      Are you trying to imply that 25,000 cases in Europe is less important than 175 cases in the US?
      - adventured 13y ago
        What are you talking about? The reason the vast majority of those 175 cases exist is due to the lack of vaccination. That's exactly the point the article makes, and that's exactly the point I've made. Europe has had a measles problem for a while. It's hitting America now precisely due to the reduction in vaccination rates.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >This kind of behavior needs to be publicly shamed and banished back to the pre-industrial age. Immense social pressure should be brought to bear. That is already the case. It (shaming others) may feel good to some people but it doesn't appear to be effective.
doktrin 13y ago
25k cases in Europe every year? Can anyone provide any context around what appears to be a shockingly high number?
- adventured 13y ago
  It's almost exclusively due to the lack of vaccination. "In 2007, 3,104 (87%) measles cases in Europe were unvaccinated" "However, this controversy [autism claims] resulted in the proportion of children in the United Kingdom who received their first vaccine dose by 2 years of age decreasing from a high of 92.5% during April–June 1995 to a low of 78.9% during the same period in 2003." http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S353.long http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S353.long And "In the year ending April 30, 2012, a total of 17,448 measles cases were repoted in the European Union and Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway" "Vaccination status was known for 84 percent of the cases, of which 82 percent had never received the vaccine, 13 percent had received one dose, and 4 percent had received two or more doses" http://www.forbes.com/sites/gerganakoleva/2012/07/02/what-recent-measles-and-rubella-outbreaks-in-europe-can-teach-the-u-s/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/gerganakoleva/2012/07/02/what-re...
- radicalbyte 13y ago
  1. In the UK the tabloids (Daily Mail, Mirror, Sun et al) publicized bogus scare stories about the MMR vaccine and autism. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/apr/25/mmr-scare-analysis http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/apr/25/mmr-scare-ana... 2. In The Netherlands, certain groups reject vaccines on religious grounds. Specifically the Dutch Reformed. http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2013/06/measles_outbreak_hits_dutch_bi.php http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2013/06/measles_outbre... I'd assume that the cases in "rich" Europe are related. There are some pretty poor countries in Europe so I'd guess that that the majority of the cases will originate from there..
bananacurve 13y ago
>Western Europe has had 25,000 cases of measles every year for the last three years… in great part due to vaccine hesitancy. Apparently Europe needs to get its act together. They have already caused 175 cases in the US, I hope we don't have to start screening Europeans.
ChrisAntaki 13y ago
From my understanding, fear of vaccines is closely tied to Thimerosal content, which is a derivative of Ethyl Mercury. The idea is, "there's Mercury in the vaccine, and Mercury causes Autism" - which is scary thought for a parent. If there was empirical data showing zero correlation between Autism rates, and Thimerosal, I think we'd see more people accepting vaccines.
- rocksinsocks 13y ago
  http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/ http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/
  - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
    Cool, so the studies have been done: http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-Vaccines-and-Autism.aspx http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-V... "The committee concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. The committee also concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism."
    - pekk 13y ago
      But you didn't bother to look it up yourself before continuing to spread FUD about vaccines. A behavior which is literally killing people.
      - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
        There's no reason to attach sigma to discussing the beliefs, of people who aren't taking the vaccines.
        mikeash 13y ago
        There is actually plenty of reason to attach stigma to discussing beliefs in an area where there is plentiful hard data.
christkv 13y ago
The worst thing about people refusing to vaccinate their children is the fact that they themselves probably had all the vaccines in their childhood and did not suffer any consequences. I support banning of unvaccinated children from kinder gardens and schools as I think it's unacceptable to compromise herd immunity because of selfish non-scientific beliefs that verge on ideology at this point.
- kreek 13y ago
  My wife and I have given our children all the vaccines we had as children and it was an enormous struggle to do so. Children now receive many more vaccines than we did, and many of them are delivered in combination; up to four or more at a time. Autism aside there is a very real danger of a reaction when you combine so many vaccines. Others are completely unnecessary, like Hep B at birth. If the governing bodies went back to a sane vaccine schedule I think some of the refusers would come back into the fold.
  - grannyg00se 13y ago
    So are you saying that if you only wanted to give your child the vaccines that you had received as a child, you couldn't do that without also giving them a bunch of other unwanted vaccines? Can you not vaccinate your child by your own selection and timeline?
    - secstate 13y ago
      Nope. Very difficult to pick and choose vaccines. Hello, drug-resistant pertussis [1]. Wish we could leave that one out and not make things worse in the future. Also, really wish I could choose just measles and mumps and not rubella. Rubella is a non-issue for most people [2]. The other issue at hand is that drug companies make a pretty penny if everyone gets Hep B at birth "just to be safe." Motivations become difficult to pull apart and people become suspicious. Exhibit B. The chicken pox vaccine, who's addition to the vaccine cocktail at birth no doubt helps Merck's bottom line, despite the fact that one does is only effective for five years and even at the height of protection afforded, you are still likely to contract varicella, but with lessened symptoms [3]. 1: http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/18/6/12-0091_article.htm http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/18/6/12-0091_article.htm 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella#Prognosis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella#Prognosis 3: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/varicella-vaccine/pages/introduction.aspx http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/varicella-vaccine/pages/introdu...
raphinou 13y ago
Whn says that more than 95% of measles mortality was in low income areas. Is the low mortality rate in higher income areas due to a higher rate of vaccination, or does better medical infrastructure itself lower the moratality? Genuinely interested to hear what knowledgeable people think.
- raphinou 13y ago
  I am disappointed that no one answered my question. With the number of comments i read expressing very strong opinions, i had hoped someone would have investigated that point.
DrJokepu 13y ago
A friend of mine works for the New York City Department of Health and closely follows the current measles outbreak. According to him, the outbreak (and the rejection of vaccination) can be tied very strongly to certain religious group. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a5.htm?mobile=nocontent http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a5.htm?mobile...
- grannyg00se 13y ago
  Wait....this is the largest outbreak since 1996 and all that happened was one kid got pneumonia and one woman had a miscarriage? These things happen every day. Seems like a lot of money, work, and debate over a relatively minute issue. Even in that larger 1996 outbreak nobody died. And we've got people comparing vaccine refusal to child abuse! If that's child abuse, you're going to have to take a serious look at every parent of an illiterate grade schooler. And while you're at it, your child abuse radar should be going crazy whenever you see an obese toddler.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    "And while you're at it, your child abuse radar should be going crazy whenever you see an obese toddler." What makes you think it doesn't?
spikels 13y ago
Anyone else notice Yahoo's new Global News Anchor Katie Couric is one of those helping spread doubts about vaccines, the HPV vaccine in this case[1]. HPV is responsible for more than 25,000 cancers in the US each year[2] and around 6,000 deaths[3]. Worldwide figures are probably 15 times greater. [1] http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-katie-couric-hpv-vaccine-20131204,0,4561911.story#axzz2mjUnDlPF http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st... [2] http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/statistics/cases.htm http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/statistics/cases.htm [3] http://www.kegel.com/hpv/deaths/ http://www.kegel.com/hpv/deaths/
- aestra 13y ago
  I think we should also be vaccinating males for HPV, they spread it, and it also causes cancer in men (though it is less likely) such as penile and anal cancer. Right now we are only vaccinating women.
  - shirro 13y ago
    It is now available to all boys aged 12-13 through a school based vaccination program in Australia. Same as girls.
    - aestra 13y ago
      In the United States it is FDA approved for use in men however it still isn't widely used in boys.
bananacurve 13y ago
I find it amusing to see articles like this that are up voted because the title paints the US in a bad light, but upon reading casts Europe in a bad light and therefore gets flagged.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Where's the option to display the thoughts of voters and flaggers? I can't seem to find it in my settings.

58 points by grannyg00se 13y ago

This kind of behavior needs to be publicly shamed and banished back to the pre-industrial age. Immense social pressure should be brought to bear. Failure to vaccinate your children against something like measles should be viewed as one notch down from child abuse. I'd also support eliminating all public welfare programs for people that refuse core vaccinations. If you want to be a voluntary threat to society, you shouldn't get to piggy back on it. It's beyond an absurdity that America should be drifting backwards on something like this, given the progress we've made in the last century toward understanding why/how vaccines work. Gates will help eliminate polio in India, just as we're reacquiring it here.

Retric 13y ago
I support Murder charges for anyone failing to vaccinate there children resulting in an infection and death even if it's indirect. Aka your kid infects Sam who infects Bob who dies, your now up on Murder charges.
- TallGuyShort 13y ago
  That's extreme. Vaccines are not without risks, even if they vast majority of society believes they're tiny risks with massive benefits. By all means seek to educate people, use public funds to subsidize them, but murder charges because you refuse to inject a substance in your child's body? No. edit: I'm biased because yesterday my daughter had a mild reaction to a vaccine that was not listed on any of the information materials our doctor had given us. But believe me that's a bias I'll take to my grave. I'm not going to refuse all vaccines over that - but it's never your decision to make for us.
  - lemming 13y ago
    It is an extreme view, but I disagree with your assessment that it should be entirely the parents' choice. In not vaccinating a child, parents are not just making a decision about their own child, they're making a decision that can potentially affect many other people's children too. At least where I live, education is compulsory and vaccination is not, so it's illegal to refuse entry to a school based on vaccination status - I think this is wrong. I would like to be able to choose to send my children to a school where I feel like parents are taking responsible steps to not just protect their own children but those around them as well. I'm also biased because I live near a town with a large hippie population and very low rates of vaccination for things like whooping cough. For the last two years there has been an outbreak of whooping cough, our doctor was pleased that they hadn't had a new case in two weeks. The child of a friend of my parents died age 1 1/2 from whooping cough. For young children the vaccination takes 3 injections over a course of months as they build up immunity - it's a dangerous thing, and I know people who think twice about taking newborn children outside here. If my child died of whooping cough (or something similar) because people around me didn't feel like being responsible members of society, you'd better believe I'd feel like pressing manslaughter charges. Whether I actually could or not is another matter, but it would feel massively unjust if I couldn't.
    - TallGuyShort 13y ago
      I understand your reason for "bias" as well, and I agree it's unfortunate. But let's take the flu as an example. People die from that, but are all the people who didn't get a flu-shot responsible? Do you take into account how often the victims washed their hands, and how well they developed their immune systems beforehand? And who's going to be deciding what vaccinations are and aren't required? My doctor's recommendations change all the time based on the latest evidence. Why are we even suggesting removing an individuals right to make their own decision based on their own research? Yes, you can label it as "irresponsible" and I'd probably agree, but setting a precedent that the government can mandate that you inject you and your child with an agent derived from lethal diseases? That's not many steps away from mandatory abortions for undesirable genetic traits.
      - lemming 13y ago
- robryk 13y ago
  Killing someone while driving and texting isn't murder in most (all?) jurisdictions AFAIK.
  - aestra 13y ago
    Wow, Yes of course it is! Usually it it is coded under law as vehicular manslaughter; generally, it involves death that results from the negligent operation of a vehicle. Same as if you killed someone while drinking and driving or if you just decided to run them over cause you were driving recklessly. Anyone can be charged with murder even if there isn't a specific vehicular manslaughter statue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_homicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_homicide Oh yeah, and if you don't believe me: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_jersey&id=9297034 http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_jer... http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/06/justice/massachusetts-texting-trial/ http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/06/justice/massachusetts-texting-... http://host.madison.com/news/local/crime_and_courts/sun-prairie-woman-convicted-of-homicide-by-negligent-driving-for/article_574c611e-d83a-11e1-9778-001a4bcf887a.html http://host.madison.com/news/local/crime_and_courts/sun-prai... http://www.fox11online.com/news/local/fox-cities/little-chute-woman-charged-with-homicide http://www.fox11online.com/news/local/fox-cities/little-chut... http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/anne-arundel-county/woman-charged-in-fatal-textingwhiledriving-crash/-/10137088/22331782/-/gmd3j9/-/index.html http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/anne-arundel-county/woma... http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/woman-who-killed-toddler-in-texting-while-driving-/nD5dm/ http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/woman-who-killed-toddler-in-te... http://www.nbc4i.com/story/20746093/1st-vehicular-homicide-while-texting-case-indicted-in-franklin-co http://www.nbc4i.com/story/20746093/1st-vehicular-homicide-w... http://www.mygeorgiadefenselawyer.com/2010/02/12/vehicular-homicide-charges-texting-while-driving/ http://www.mygeorgiadefenselawyer.com/2010/02/12/vehicular-h... Besides, what does vehicular manslaughter have anything to do with this?
    - maxerickson 13y ago
      Manslaughter and murder have separate meanings. Especially in a legal sense.
    - TheCoelacanth 13y ago
- patrickg_zill 13y ago
  Extreme and stupidly ignorant of how vaccines actually work... no vaccine is 100% effective - the MMR vaccine is claimed 95% effective with 1 dose and near 100% with 2. But the MMR vaccine is one of the oldest and most effective. Other vaccines have as low as 67% immunity (or even worse) - so, out of a class of 30 kids, with 1 kid not vaccinated, there would still be 10 possible "suspects". And you would automatically charge the unvax'ed - turning many of the foundational concepts of law upside down in your hysterical crusade.
  - Retric 13y ago
    Only sick people are disease vectors. So, in a normal outbreak they track who infected whom with a fair amount of accuracy. Granted, nothing is perfect but the legal system is designed for an imperfect world so that's hardly a problem. Also, if for some reason your child can't be vaccinated due to say immune issue well that's a reasonable exception, but trusting in herd immunity while failing to contribute to it is not. Edit: As to why it's important, not vaccinating your children risks their heath, but the larger risks are to society and not you. So, much as vehicular manslaughter is far more serious than a simple speeding ticket if you take the risks and someone dies then it's your fault. Because, despite the fact thousands of people may do the same thing without issue, if you do it and someone dies then your responsible and they where unreasonably risking others lives end of story. PS: Personal responsibility anyone?
    - Crito 13y ago
      > Only sick people are disease vectors. That is not true for the casual meaning of "sick"; Typhoid Mary is the classic example of an asymptomatic carrier. Of course she is also an example of how responsibility can be traced even when asymptomatic carriers are involved, and an example of how negligence and refusal to take measures to prevent the spread of disease is antisocial behavior that can (or even must) be dealt with harshly.
  - Crito 13y ago
    > Extreme and stupidly ignorant of how vaccines actually work... no vaccine is 100% effective - the MMR vaccine is claimed 95% effective with 1 dose and near 100% with 2. But the MMR vaccine is one of the oldest and most effective. Your kid is unvaccinated, should have been, and transmits something to somebody else who is then injured? You should have some degree of liability. Your kid is unvaccinated, could not be vaccinated *(too young, or had an existing medical condition that made it impossible) , and transmits something to somebody else who is then injured? Well, that's a shit situation, but there is not much that should be done in that situation. Your kid is vaccinated, catches something anyway, and transmits something to somebody else who is then injured? Well, that's a shit situation, but there is not much that should be done in that situation. These complexities are not intractable.
bananacurve 13y ago
Did you even read the article? Western Europe has 25,000 per year and America has 175 this year mostly from Europeans who don't vaccinate.
- adventured 13y ago
  Did you? “It is not a failure of the vaccine,” Frieden said. “It’s a failure to vaccinate. Around 90 percent of the people who have had measles in this country were not vaccinated either because they refused, or were not vaccinated on time.”
  - bananacurve 13y ago
    Are you trying to imply that 25,000 cases in Europe is less important than 175 cases in the US?
    - adventured 13y ago
      What are you talking about? The reason the vast majority of those 175 cases exist is due to the lack of vaccination. That's exactly the point the article makes, and that's exactly the point I've made. Europe has had a measles problem for a while. It's hitting America now precisely due to the reduction in vaccination rates.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>This kind of behavior needs to be publicly shamed and banished back to the pre-industrial age. Immense social pressure should be brought to bear. That is already the case. It (shaming others) may feel good to some people but it doesn't appear to be effective.

doktrin 13y ago

25k cases in Europe every year? Can anyone provide any context around what appears to be a shockingly high number?

adventured 13y ago
It's almost exclusively due to the lack of vaccination. "In 2007, 3,104 (87%) measles cases in Europe were unvaccinated" "However, this controversy [autism claims] resulted in the proportion of children in the United Kingdom who received their first vaccine dose by 2 years of age decreasing from a high of 92.5% during April–June 1995 to a low of 78.9% during the same period in 2003." http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S353.long http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S353.long And "In the year ending April 30, 2012, a total of 17,448 measles cases were repoted in the European Union and Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway" "Vaccination status was known for 84 percent of the cases, of which 82 percent had never received the vaccine, 13 percent had received one dose, and 4 percent had received two or more doses" http://www.forbes.com/sites/gerganakoleva/2012/07/02/what-recent-measles-and-rubella-outbreaks-in-europe-can-teach-the-u-s/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/gerganakoleva/2012/07/02/what-re...
radicalbyte 13y ago
1. In the UK the tabloids (Daily Mail, Mirror, Sun et al) publicized bogus scare stories about the MMR vaccine and autism. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/apr/25/mmr-scare-analysis http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/apr/25/mmr-scare-ana... 2. In The Netherlands, certain groups reject vaccines on religious grounds. Specifically the Dutch Reformed. http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2013/06/measles_outbreak_hits_dutch_bi.php http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2013/06/measles_outbre... I'd assume that the cases in "rich" Europe are related. There are some pretty poor countries in Europe so I'd guess that that the majority of the cases will originate from there..

bananacurve 13y ago

>Western Europe has had 25,000 cases of measles every year for the last three years… in great part due to vaccine hesitancy. Apparently Europe needs to get its act together. They have already caused 175 cases in the US, I hope we don't have to start screening Europeans.

ChrisAntaki 13y ago

From my understanding, fear of vaccines is closely tied to Thimerosal content, which is a derivative of Ethyl Mercury. The idea is, "there's Mercury in the vaccine, and Mercury causes Autism" - which is scary thought for a parent. If there was empirical data showing zero correlation between Autism rates, and Thimerosal, I think we'd see more people accepting vaccines.

rocksinsocks 13y ago
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/ http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  Cool, so the studies have been done: http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-Vaccines-and-Autism.aspx http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-V... "The committee concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. The committee also concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism."
  - pekk 13y ago
    But you didn't bother to look it up yourself before continuing to spread FUD about vaccines. A behavior which is literally killing people.
    - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
      There's no reason to attach sigma to discussing the beliefs, of people who aren't taking the vaccines.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        There is actually plenty of reason to attach stigma to discussing beliefs in an area where there is plentiful hard data.

christkv 13y ago

The worst thing about people refusing to vaccinate their children is the fact that they themselves probably had all the vaccines in their childhood and did not suffer any consequences. I support banning of unvaccinated children from kinder gardens and schools as I think it's unacceptable to compromise herd immunity because of selfish non-scientific beliefs that verge on ideology at this point.

kreek 13y ago
My wife and I have given our children all the vaccines we had as children and it was an enormous struggle to do so. Children now receive many more vaccines than we did, and many of them are delivered in combination; up to four or more at a time. Autism aside there is a very real danger of a reaction when you combine so many vaccines. Others are completely unnecessary, like Hep B at birth. If the governing bodies went back to a sane vaccine schedule I think some of the refusers would come back into the fold.
- grannyg00se 13y ago
  So are you saying that if you only wanted to give your child the vaccines that you had received as a child, you couldn't do that without also giving them a bunch of other unwanted vaccines? Can you not vaccinate your child by your own selection and timeline?
  - secstate 13y ago
    Nope. Very difficult to pick and choose vaccines. Hello, drug-resistant pertussis [1]. Wish we could leave that one out and not make things worse in the future. Also, really wish I could choose just measles and mumps and not rubella. Rubella is a non-issue for most people [2]. The other issue at hand is that drug companies make a pretty penny if everyone gets Hep B at birth "just to be safe." Motivations become difficult to pull apart and people become suspicious. Exhibit B. The chicken pox vaccine, who's addition to the vaccine cocktail at birth no doubt helps Merck's bottom line, despite the fact that one does is only effective for five years and even at the height of protection afforded, you are still likely to contract varicella, but with lessened symptoms [3]. 1: http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/18/6/12-0091_article.htm http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/18/6/12-0091_article.htm 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella#Prognosis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella#Prognosis 3: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/varicella-vaccine/pages/introduction.aspx http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/varicella-vaccine/pages/introdu...

raphinou 13y ago

Whn says that more than 95% of measles mortality was in low income areas. Is the low mortality rate in higher income areas due to a higher rate of vaccination, or does better medical infrastructure itself lower the moratality? Genuinely interested to hear what knowledgeable people think.

raphinou 13y ago
I am disappointed that no one answered my question. With the number of comments i read expressing very strong opinions, i had hoped someone would have investigated that point.

DrJokepu 13y ago

A friend of mine works for the New York City Department of Health and closely follows the current measles outbreak. According to him, the outbreak (and the rejection of vaccination) can be tied very strongly to certain religious group. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a5.htm?mobile=nocontent http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a5.htm?mobile...

grannyg00se 13y ago
Wait....this is the largest outbreak since 1996 and all that happened was one kid got pneumonia and one woman had a miscarriage? These things happen every day. Seems like a lot of money, work, and debate over a relatively minute issue. Even in that larger 1996 outbreak nobody died. And we've got people comparing vaccine refusal to child abuse! If that's child abuse, you're going to have to take a serious look at every parent of an illiterate grade schooler. And while you're at it, your child abuse radar should be going crazy whenever you see an obese toddler.
- mikeash 13y ago
  "And while you're at it, your child abuse radar should be going crazy whenever you see an obese toddler." What makes you think it doesn't?

spikels 13y ago

Anyone else notice Yahoo's new Global News Anchor Katie Couric is one of those helping spread doubts about vaccines, the HPV vaccine in this case[1]. HPV is responsible for more than 25,000 cancers in the US each year[2] and around 6,000 deaths[3]. Worldwide figures are probably 15 times greater. [1] http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-katie-couric-hpv-vaccine-20131204,0,4561911.story#axzz2mjUnDlPF http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st... [2] http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/statistics/cases.htm http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/statistics/cases.htm [3] http://www.kegel.com/hpv/deaths/ http://www.kegel.com/hpv/deaths/

aestra 13y ago
I think we should also be vaccinating males for HPV, they spread it, and it also causes cancer in men (though it is less likely) such as penile and anal cancer. Right now we are only vaccinating women.
- shirro 13y ago
  It is now available to all boys aged 12-13 through a school based vaccination program in Australia. Same as girls.
  - aestra 13y ago
    In the United States it is FDA approved for use in men however it still isn't widely used in boys.

bananacurve 13y ago

I find it amusing to see articles like this that are up voted because the title paints the US in a bad light, but upon reading casts Europe in a bad light and therefore gets flagged.

mikeash 13y ago
Where's the option to display the thoughts of voters and flaggers? I can't seem to find it in my settings.