13 ms·

The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

204 points by salient 13y ago

snrip 13y ago
F*ck apartheid, but for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail. Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime, but the allegations in the article are just from one source not directly related to the affairs. All the "Who knows" and "My guess" doesn't make the case any stronger.
- TallGuyShort 13y ago
  I agree that stuff like this needs to be well-sourced, but I'm glad to see some of it getting attention. Mandela is, and rightfully so, held up as a beacon of kindness and forgiveness that we should all try to incorporate. But I think we do his legacy a disservice by not talking about all the corruption he fought, and who we really was (including the parts that make him look like, as you suggest, he "pretty much deserved to go to jail"). I've done a lot of reading on this topic myself. I would love to post some sources but I don't have my books with me at the moment. But for what it's worth (which is not much, admittedly) - let me add my endorsement as a fellow HNer that what the author talks about is plausible, and there is plenty of evidence if you care to go looking for it. I believe this is a well-accepted theory by many other South Africans, rather than a fringe conspiracy. But yes - unfortunate that the author doesn't do more to back up the claims in a verifiable way. edit: The cover is different, but I'm pretty sure this is the book I read that did the most to back up these events: http://www.amazon.com/Inside-B-O-S-S-Africas-Secret-Police/dp/014005751X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386346547&sr=8-1&keywords=South+Africa%27s+Secret+Police http://www.amazon.com/Inside-B-O-S-S-Africas-Secret-Police/d.... The details, as I remember them, have always been very consistently reported by the various "sources".
- yequalsx 13y ago
  Do you believe his jailors deserved to go to jail? What about his prosecutors? The results of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission clearly indicate evilness of the apartheid regime and those in control of it. That Mandela's response when gaining power was not one of retribution, revenge, and bloodshed clearly indicates in my mind that his was a principled, moral mind and that he clearly did not deserve to go to jail.
  - sigzero 13y ago
    Weren't like 70K white people slaughtered while he was president?
    - scarmig 13y ago
      It's unclear what you mean by that, but to the extent that it implies ANC reprisals or a race war, it's ridiculous.
      - powertower 13y ago
        Good luck with the pretending that whites aren't targeted out of hate in South Africa. http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/white-genocide-in-south-africa.html http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/white-genocide-in-...
        scarmig 13y ago
        I figured the 70k number came from crime counts or something similar, since it's easy to build up non-negligible numbers pretty easily when 50 people are murdered in your country per day, which is the case in South Africa. But individual crimes, even crimes partially or wholly racially motivated, do not make for a race war or genocide.
    - mikebludd 13y ago
      no.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime The US was the apartheid regime's next-to-last overt ally (Israel was the last -- and proliferated nuclear weapons technology to South Africa) -- US overt support ending only late in the Reagan Administration under intense public and Congressional pressure -- and its not really the worst regime the US backed as a bulwark against Communism. Regardless of whether the CIA was involved in supplying information for Mandela's arrest, there is no question that at the time -- and for decades after -- the US government was -- overtly, not merely potentially covertly -- backing the South Africa apartheid regime.
  - dingaling 13y ago
    In what form do you see that overt support? The USA was very stringent in adhering to the progressively tighter UN arms embargoes and once the supplies from France ceased this caused SA to look towards Israel, Taiwan and Argentina for military equipment ( the latter two mainly as covert import channels, Israel as a partner ). Occasional US arms did appear in SADF service but only as grey imports. SA intel and SADF held a pretty dim view of CIA capabilities ( particularly in Angola ) and from what I know in public sources didn't deal much with them. Though they did supply captured Warpac equipment, once they had examined it in conjunction with the Israelis.
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      Was doing some reading after seeing your comment and stumbled on this State Department site. What it says was new to me (I'm not American). Here it is if anyone else is interested. http://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/pcw/98678.htm http://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/pcw/98678.htm
- jbooth 13y ago
  Thought experiment: Some other civilization (let's say the Arabs) comes to America and puts us in a system analogous to apartheid, where the groups are whites on bottom and arabs on top. In that hypothetical, would your opinions be different?
  - pstuart 13y ago
    Of course they would. But only then.
    - cglee 13y ago
      So you basically lack empathy.
      - pstuart 13y ago
        Huh? I've got plenty to spare. I was referring to the parent.
  - snrip 13y ago
    In that case my opinion would go from "fck apartheid" to "fck the system analogous to apartheid". I would support the Americans in their fight against Arabs (never thought I would live to say that!). I would still not condone hurting innocent people and feel that a punushment would be justified.
- ilitirit 13y ago
  > for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail. TBH, while he did break the law, I think his course of action against the state was justified. That's obviously not an excuse that will fly in court, but saying "he deserved to go to jail" is a bit disingenuous given the context. Mandela pleaded guilty to the charges against him (sabotage of various state and military instruments). The state was looking for evidence of him having a hand in killing/hurting civilians because they wanted to hang him. They couldn't find any, so they settled on life imprisonment.
  - the_af 13y ago
    Agreed. "Deserve" has little to do with going to jail. Going to jail is a legal matter. A moral man committing a moral act that happens to break an immoral law will go to jail according to that law, but does he "deserve" it?
  - snrip 13y ago
    Yeah, I should not have let that remark fly without further elaboration: For all I know mr. Mandela was directly connected to bombings that made innocent victims, such as the Church Street bombing. In my book that warrents jail sentence. I am not too sure how to feel about an institution of the apartheids regime being the judge to this. Right and wrong get mixed up in my head. For the fact that he and others resisted this regime, they deserve the praise they are getting. Sure some laws have been broken, but who made and interpreted these laws? That is not why I was saying he deserved punishment. It is innocent victims that make the difference. I was definitely not clear on that. Btw I just did some reading up on the ANC bombings and it turns out I might be all wrong and just made an ass out of myself.
    - ilitirit 13y ago
      > For all I know mr. Mandela was directly connected to bombings that made innocent victims, such as the Church Street bombing. FYI, he was not connected to that bombing. He was in prison at the time and only heard about it through the news and visitors. Some websites claim that he stated in his autobiography that he personally approved of the bombings. This is obviously false. His autobiography is available on the net for everyone to read.
- pjc50 13y ago
  Some background from Mandela himself: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/23/nelsonmandela http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/23/nelsonmandela It's important to note the date of this speech at his trial, April 20 1964, _before_ the passing of the US civil rights act (July 2 the same year); so at this time parts of the US had apartheit-like conditions.
  - munificent 13y ago
    It does a disservice to the facts of apartheid to compare the US in 1964 to SA at the same time. While, yes, there were many many racial problems in the US, there were no race-based federal laws. The Civil Rights Act was passed to prohibit racial laws at the state level. Meanwhile, in South Africa: All citizens had to carry a card identifying their race. (Population Registration Act) It was specifically legally allowed to segregate public facilities (parks, hospitals, transportation, etc.). In addition, facilities were specifically allowed to be unequal for different races or even non-existent. (Reservation of Separate Amenities Act) Property was legally divided by race and you could only live in areas alloted to your race. (Group Areas Act) Federal law controlled which jobs you were allowed to hold based on your race. High skill jobs were reserved for whites and blacks were prohibited from holding them. (Mines and Works Act, Native Building Workers Act) Blacks were legally prohibited from striking or forming unions. Whites had no such restriction. (Native Labour (Settlement of Disputes) Act, Industrial Conciliation Act) Schools were legally segregated by race, which led (either intentionally or not) to radically inferior schooling for blacks. In the 70s, per capita spending on black education was one-tenth of the spending on white. (Bantu Education Act, Extension of University Education Act et. al.) It was a federal crime, punishable by up to five years in prison to engage in inter-racial sex involving a white person. Inter-racial marriage was likewise outlawed. (Immorality Act, Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act) And this is just the beginning. There were dozens of other pieces of legislation that specifically encoded race-based selection into federal law. It's astonishing how horrendous South Africa was in a time where most other developed countries were what we think of as "modern".
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      There is nothing modern about the way the US treated race politics in the 1960s. It was appalling and a lot worse than many other countries - South Africa being a notable exception. It still puzzles me the amount race comes up in American TV shows. They are loaded with lame race based jokes which indicates to me that all still isn't right, and how could it be when my parents' generation can remember events of the 1960s. I live in New Zealand, and it would be untrue to claim race and racism aren't a problem here, but I think that the situation is slightly better although we have appalling stats for Maori and Pacific Islanders where health, life expectancy, poverty and education are concerned. I could be wrong but it recall reading that the Maori are the worlds most imprisoned race.
trekky1700 13y ago
I would like to point out that the article, despite it's leading title, states that there's little evidence to suggest the agent was working for the CIA at the time. He owned a security company and was hired by a South African government agency. Title really should be: "The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From A Hired Private Security Contractor Who Happened To Have Worked For The CIA In The Past"
- scarmig 13y ago
  This is inaccurate. Mandela was arrested in the 1962, and Shirley (the person in question) only retired from the agency a decade later, in 1973. http://www.salon.com/1996/11/14/news_577/ http://www.salon.com/1996/11/14/news_577/ I believe the confusion comes from when the training manuals for the South African security/intelligence forces were being developed by him, which came later, after his ostensible retirement.
- jokoon 13y ago
  Maybe the CIA should not have worked with those guys in the first place ? That's one part of capitalism I hate, paying fat checks, and knowing it will never backfire to you. When you're a government agency, when you hire somebody, there's espionage/politics involved, don't pretend the CIA is pinky pony. It's strategic moves from start to end. I've seen worse headlines.
  - Shivetya 13y ago
    This has nothing to do with capitalism and more to do with anything, colonialism and the Cold War. It was politics as usual, help allies to keep them. While it is easy to sit back and judge the past we have to realize that some actions were seen as prudent at the time. The nation Mandela came up in is far different from what it is today but so is the world. This by no means excuses actions of the past, but at the time who would have ever figured the transformation that took place in him at the time.
    - the_af 13y ago
      With this mindset, is it ever possible to judge anything? "At the time, it made sense to help racists (who happened to be our allies) imprison and possibly hang a black agitator. We now know it was wrong, but back then who knew?" Um, ok. So when is it right to denounce those who helped racist regimes?
jd_free 13y ago
Coverage of Mandela is a testament to the prevailing powers' ability to rewrite history. Millions of people think he was put in jail for protesting apartheid or something else noble. He was actually a terrorist leader - his group killed thousands of innocents in bombings and other attacks. The "activism" he's credited with while in prison was mostly arranging more killings. Read about a practice his group created while he was in prison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing
- scarmig 13y ago
  You can read more about the crimes his group was involved in in the proceedings of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission established after the abolition of apartheid.
- garg 13y ago
  From what I am reading all this happened while he was in prison. ANC had violent members while Mandela was in prison but how does that implicate Mandela? Desmund Tutu saved a man from Necklacing so why then would he be such an ardent supporter of Mandela?
  - scarmig 13y ago
    In fairness, he started the military wing of the ANC, and his wife was involved in lots of very nasty stuff. Those were bleak times, though; I'm sure Mandela himself thought as much. But for some reason you don't see the people so outraged about the relatively limited violence the ANC engaged in even slightly concerned about the constant terrorism and mass violence that the apartheid state directed against it's nonwhite residents. (I would say citizens, but they didn't even have legal formal citizenship.) And more than anything it's Mandela's performance after abolition that has cemented his reputation: he could easily have been another Mugabe, but he pursued restorative justice for both sides, not vengeance. To paraphrase MLK... I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that a political movement in a deeply repressed and violent society itself occasionally resorts to violence, but it is even more unfortunate that the country's white power structure left the coloured community with no alternative.
tokipin 13y ago
best historical overview on Mandela for those of us who have only heard the word 'apartheid' but didn't know what it refered to (video): http://on.msnbc.com/1cpfpAr http://on.msnbc.com/1cpfpAr
moolriaz 13y ago
Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the amount of trolling going on here. Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2: I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was because with the release of Nelson Mandela, my parents were one of few to study at a previously white only university, and qualify for positions previously reserved for whites only. They went on to run companies that they COULD NOT have run during Apartheid, have offices in places they could not have had before, have clients they could not have before etc. I live in a neighbourhood my parents could not have lived in prior to 1994, and study at a university my parents were not allowed to. These were white only areas only, because they are good. My father was a lawyer during Apartheid. Black people were only allowed to represent black people. Almost all of the people he defended in court were put to death, in many cases before their trials were even heard by courts! Post apartheid, the death penalty was dropped. My family had family friends that were white. They were never allowed to mix. My aunt wanted to marry a white (American) man but was forbidden to. They got married illegally. She was not entitled to live in the property he owned, as black people could not legally own property. She came close to being arrested many times. Post apartheid my aunt and her white husband were married. She was allowed to legally own the property after he died. My birth certificate does not have my parents names on it, due to Apartheid. Families were not formally recognised. I need to get an amended birth certificate to prove who my parents are, and I can now do this post apartheid. My parents were also forcefully removed from their legally owned properties that were taken from them during Apartheid. Their property was seized by the government and never returned. My parents could barely even travel out of South Africa as flying over/travelling other African countries were restricted. They were even not allowed to enter many countries abroad. And I'm not even 'Black'. My ethnicity is Indian. I am an Indian South Africa (of which there are millions). Everyone who wasn't white was counted as 'Black'. This accounts for over 85% of South Africa's population. It is well known in SA that the US government actively supported Apartheid, and many people have a poor opinion of the US because of this. If it wasn't for Nelson Mandela, I probably wouldn't even be able to post this. My family, and millions others, now live lives they simply could not have lived before. Please explain to me how this is the work of a terrorist, or how in any way the work of the armed wing of the ANC was not justified by the Apartheid regimes massacre of innocent children and women , and torture of prisoners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soweto_uprising http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soweto_uprising, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biko http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biko) and their numerous policies and their effects as explained above.
bananacurve 13y ago
Vapid articles like this are up voted on HN on the mistaken idea that this somehow is bringing America down a notch. Inaccuracies of this story aside, people that want America to fail would be much better served by actually building something useful themselves.
CraigJPerry 13y ago
I only found out today how Nelson Mandella place in Glasgow city centre got its name. To piss off SA, the street their embassy was on was renamed while he was still being held. There's more the story: http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22976781 http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22976781
- owenmarshall 13y ago
  This is the same reason that there is a Bobby Sands Street in downtown Tehran. The UK embassy responded by moving their main entrance to a side door on a different street so they wouldn't be forced to put Bobby Sands on their letterhead, official documents, etc.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
ismail 13y ago
Also to get a more accurate reflection, tune in to Radio 702 (Wont be much now since its 11pm) but you could possibly catch some clips from people who actually knew him. http://www.ourmadiba.com/reflect.html http://www.ourmadiba.com/reflect.html http://www.702.co.za/index_site.asp http://www.702.co.za/index_site.asp

204 points by salient 13y ago

snrip 13y ago

F*ck apartheid, but for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail. Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime, but the allegations in the article are just from one source not directly related to the affairs. All the "Who knows" and "My guess" doesn't make the case any stronger.

TallGuyShort 13y ago
I agree that stuff like this needs to be well-sourced, but I'm glad to see some of it getting attention. Mandela is, and rightfully so, held up as a beacon of kindness and forgiveness that we should all try to incorporate. But I think we do his legacy a disservice by not talking about all the corruption he fought, and who we really was (including the parts that make him look like, as you suggest, he "pretty much deserved to go to jail"). I've done a lot of reading on this topic myself. I would love to post some sources but I don't have my books with me at the moment. But for what it's worth (which is not much, admittedly) - let me add my endorsement as a fellow HNer that what the author talks about is plausible, and there is plenty of evidence if you care to go looking for it. I believe this is a well-accepted theory by many other South Africans, rather than a fringe conspiracy. But yes - unfortunate that the author doesn't do more to back up the claims in a verifiable way. edit: The cover is different, but I'm pretty sure this is the book I read that did the most to back up these events: http://www.amazon.com/Inside-B-O-S-S-Africas-Secret-Police/dp/014005751X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386346547&sr=8-1&keywords=South+Africa%27s+Secret+Police http://www.amazon.com/Inside-B-O-S-S-Africas-Secret-Police/d.... The details, as I remember them, have always been very consistently reported by the various "sources".
yequalsx 13y ago
Do you believe his jailors deserved to go to jail? What about his prosecutors? The results of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission clearly indicate evilness of the apartheid regime and those in control of it. That Mandela's response when gaining power was not one of retribution, revenge, and bloodshed clearly indicates in my mind that his was a principled, moral mind and that he clearly did not deserve to go to jail.
- sigzero 13y ago
  Weren't like 70K white people slaughtered while he was president?
  - scarmig 13y ago
    It's unclear what you mean by that, but to the extent that it implies ANC reprisals or a race war, it's ridiculous.
    - powertower 13y ago
      Good luck with the pretending that whites aren't targeted out of hate in South Africa. http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/white-genocide-in-south-africa.html http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/white-genocide-in-...
      - scarmig 13y ago
        I figured the 70k number came from crime counts or something similar, since it's easy to build up non-negligible numbers pretty easily when 50 people are murdered in your country per day, which is the case in South Africa. But individual crimes, even crimes partially or wholly racially motivated, do not make for a race war or genocide.
  - mikebludd 13y ago
    no.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime The US was the apartheid regime's next-to-last overt ally (Israel was the last -- and proliferated nuclear weapons technology to South Africa) -- US overt support ending only late in the Reagan Administration under intense public and Congressional pressure -- and its not really the worst regime the US backed as a bulwark against Communism. Regardless of whether the CIA was involved in supplying information for Mandela's arrest, there is no question that at the time -- and for decades after -- the US government was -- overtly, not merely potentially covertly -- backing the South Africa apartheid regime.
- dingaling 13y ago
  In what form do you see that overt support? The USA was very stringent in adhering to the progressively tighter UN arms embargoes and once the supplies from France ceased this caused SA to look towards Israel, Taiwan and Argentina for military equipment ( the latter two mainly as covert import channels, Israel as a partner ). Occasional US arms did appear in SADF service but only as grey imports. SA intel and SADF held a pretty dim view of CIA capabilities ( particularly in Angola ) and from what I know in public sources didn't deal much with them. Though they did supply captured Warpac equipment, once they had examined it in conjunction with the Israelis.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Was doing some reading after seeing your comment and stumbled on this State Department site. What it says was new to me (I'm not American). Here it is if anyone else is interested. http://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/pcw/98678.htm http://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/pcw/98678.htm
jbooth 13y ago
Thought experiment: Some other civilization (let's say the Arabs) comes to America and puts us in a system analogous to apartheid, where the groups are whites on bottom and arabs on top. In that hypothetical, would your opinions be different?
- pstuart 13y ago
  Of course they would. But only then.
  - cglee 13y ago
    So you basically lack empathy.
    - pstuart 13y ago
      Huh? I've got plenty to spare. I was referring to the parent.
- snrip 13y ago
  In that case my opinion would go from "fck apartheid" to "fck the system analogous to apartheid". I would support the Americans in their fight against Arabs (never thought I would live to say that!). I would still not condone hurting innocent people and feel that a punushment would be justified.
ilitirit 13y ago
> for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail. TBH, while he did break the law, I think his course of action against the state was justified. That's obviously not an excuse that will fly in court, but saying "he deserved to go to jail" is a bit disingenuous given the context. Mandela pleaded guilty to the charges against him (sabotage of various state and military instruments). The state was looking for evidence of him having a hand in killing/hurting civilians because they wanted to hang him. They couldn't find any, so they settled on life imprisonment.
- the_af 13y ago
  Agreed. "Deserve" has little to do with going to jail. Going to jail is a legal matter. A moral man committing a moral act that happens to break an immoral law will go to jail according to that law, but does he "deserve" it?
- snrip 13y ago
  Yeah, I should not have let that remark fly without further elaboration: For all I know mr. Mandela was directly connected to bombings that made innocent victims, such as the Church Street bombing. In my book that warrents jail sentence. I am not too sure how to feel about an institution of the apartheids regime being the judge to this. Right and wrong get mixed up in my head. For the fact that he and others resisted this regime, they deserve the praise they are getting. Sure some laws have been broken, but who made and interpreted these laws? That is not why I was saying he deserved punishment. It is innocent victims that make the difference. I was definitely not clear on that. Btw I just did some reading up on the ANC bombings and it turns out I might be all wrong and just made an ass out of myself.
  - ilitirit 13y ago
    > For all I know mr. Mandela was directly connected to bombings that made innocent victims, such as the Church Street bombing. FYI, he was not connected to that bombing. He was in prison at the time and only heard about it through the news and visitors. Some websites claim that he stated in his autobiography that he personally approved of the bombings. This is obviously false. His autobiography is available on the net for everyone to read.
pjc50 13y ago
Some background from Mandela himself: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/23/nelsonmandela http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/23/nelsonmandela It's important to note the date of this speech at his trial, April 20 1964, _before_ the passing of the US civil rights act (July 2 the same year); so at this time parts of the US had apartheit-like conditions.
- munificent 13y ago
  It does a disservice to the facts of apartheid to compare the US in 1964 to SA at the same time. While, yes, there were many many racial problems in the US, there were no race-based federal laws. The Civil Rights Act was passed to prohibit racial laws at the state level. Meanwhile, in South Africa: All citizens had to carry a card identifying their race. (Population Registration Act) It was specifically legally allowed to segregate public facilities (parks, hospitals, transportation, etc.). In addition, facilities were specifically allowed to be unequal for different races or even non-existent. (Reservation of Separate Amenities Act) Property was legally divided by race and you could only live in areas alloted to your race. (Group Areas Act) Federal law controlled which jobs you were allowed to hold based on your race. High skill jobs were reserved for whites and blacks were prohibited from holding them. (Mines and Works Act, Native Building Workers Act) Blacks were legally prohibited from striking or forming unions. Whites had no such restriction. (Native Labour (Settlement of Disputes) Act, Industrial Conciliation Act) Schools were legally segregated by race, which led (either intentionally or not) to radically inferior schooling for blacks. In the 70s, per capita spending on black education was one-tenth of the spending on white. (Bantu Education Act, Extension of University Education Act et. al.) It was a federal crime, punishable by up to five years in prison to engage in inter-racial sex involving a white person. Inter-racial marriage was likewise outlawed. (Immorality Act, Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act) And this is just the beginning. There were dozens of other pieces of legislation that specifically encoded race-based selection into federal law. It's astonishing how horrendous South Africa was in a time where most other developed countries were what we think of as "modern".
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    There is nothing modern about the way the US treated race politics in the 1960s. It was appalling and a lot worse than many other countries - South Africa being a notable exception. It still puzzles me the amount race comes up in American TV shows. They are loaded with lame race based jokes which indicates to me that all still isn't right, and how could it be when my parents' generation can remember events of the 1960s. I live in New Zealand, and it would be untrue to claim race and racism aren't a problem here, but I think that the situation is slightly better although we have appalling stats for Maori and Pacific Islanders where health, life expectancy, poverty and education are concerned. I could be wrong but it recall reading that the Maori are the worlds most imprisoned race.

trekky1700 13y ago

I would like to point out that the article, despite it's leading title, states that there's little evidence to suggest the agent was working for the CIA at the time. He owned a security company and was hired by a South African government agency. Title really should be: "The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From A Hired Private Security Contractor Who Happened To Have Worked For The CIA In The Past"

scarmig 13y ago
This is inaccurate. Mandela was arrested in the 1962, and Shirley (the person in question) only retired from the agency a decade later, in 1973. http://www.salon.com/1996/11/14/news_577/ http://www.salon.com/1996/11/14/news_577/ I believe the confusion comes from when the training manuals for the South African security/intelligence forces were being developed by him, which came later, after his ostensible retirement.
jokoon 13y ago
Maybe the CIA should not have worked with those guys in the first place ? That's one part of capitalism I hate, paying fat checks, and knowing it will never backfire to you. When you're a government agency, when you hire somebody, there's espionage/politics involved, don't pretend the CIA is pinky pony. It's strategic moves from start to end. I've seen worse headlines.
- Shivetya 13y ago
  This has nothing to do with capitalism and more to do with anything, colonialism and the Cold War. It was politics as usual, help allies to keep them. While it is easy to sit back and judge the past we have to realize that some actions were seen as prudent at the time. The nation Mandela came up in is far different from what it is today but so is the world. This by no means excuses actions of the past, but at the time who would have ever figured the transformation that took place in him at the time.
  - the_af 13y ago
    With this mindset, is it ever possible to judge anything? "At the time, it made sense to help racists (who happened to be our allies) imprison and possibly hang a black agitator. We now know it was wrong, but back then who knew?" Um, ok. So when is it right to denounce those who helped racist regimes?

jd_free 13y ago

Coverage of Mandela is a testament to the prevailing powers' ability to rewrite history. Millions of people think he was put in jail for protesting apartheid or something else noble. He was actually a terrorist leader - his group killed thousands of innocents in bombings and other attacks. The "activism" he's credited with while in prison was mostly arranging more killings. Read about a practice his group created while he was in prison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing

scarmig 13y ago
You can read more about the crimes his group was involved in in the proceedings of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission established after the abolition of apartheid.
garg 13y ago
From what I am reading all this happened while he was in prison. ANC had violent members while Mandela was in prison but how does that implicate Mandela? Desmund Tutu saved a man from Necklacing so why then would he be such an ardent supporter of Mandela?
- scarmig 13y ago
  In fairness, he started the military wing of the ANC, and his wife was involved in lots of very nasty stuff. Those were bleak times, though; I'm sure Mandela himself thought as much. But for some reason you don't see the people so outraged about the relatively limited violence the ANC engaged in even slightly concerned about the constant terrorism and mass violence that the apartheid state directed against it's nonwhite residents. (I would say citizens, but they didn't even have legal formal citizenship.) And more than anything it's Mandela's performance after abolition that has cemented his reputation: he could easily have been another Mugabe, but he pursued restorative justice for both sides, not vengeance. To paraphrase MLK... I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that a political movement in a deeply repressed and violent society itself occasionally resorts to violence, but it is even more unfortunate that the country's white power structure left the coloured community with no alternative.

tokipin 13y ago

best historical overview on Mandela for those of us who have only heard the word 'apartheid' but didn't know what it refered to (video): http://on.msnbc.com/1cpfpAr http://on.msnbc.com/1cpfpAr

moolriaz 13y ago

Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the amount of trolling going on here. Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2: I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was because with the release of Nelson Mandela, my parents were one of few to study at a previously white only university, and qualify for positions previously reserved for whites only. They went on to run companies that they COULD NOT have run during Apartheid, have offices in places they could not have had before, have clients they could not have before etc. I live in a neighbourhood my parents could not have lived in prior to 1994, and study at a university my parents were not allowed to. These were white only areas only, because they are good. My father was a lawyer during Apartheid. Black people were only allowed to represent black people. Almost all of the people he defended in court were put to death, in many cases before their trials were even heard by courts! Post apartheid, the death penalty was dropped. My family had family friends that were white. They were never allowed to mix. My aunt wanted to marry a white (American) man but was forbidden to. They got married illegally. She was not entitled to live in the property he owned, as black people could not legally own property. She came close to being arrested many times. Post apartheid my aunt and her white husband were married. She was allowed to legally own the property after he died. My birth certificate does not have my parents names on it, due to Apartheid. Families were not formally recognised. I need to get an amended birth certificate to prove who my parents are, and I can now do this post apartheid. My parents were also forcefully removed from their legally owned properties that were taken from them during Apartheid. Their property was seized by the government and never returned. My parents could barely even travel out of South Africa as flying over/travelling other African countries were restricted. They were even not allowed to enter many countries abroad. And I'm not even 'Black'. My ethnicity is Indian. I am an Indian South Africa (of which there are millions). Everyone who wasn't white was counted as 'Black'. This accounts for over 85% of South Africa's population. It is well known in SA that the US government actively supported Apartheid, and many people have a poor opinion of the US because of this. If it wasn't for Nelson Mandela, I probably wouldn't even be able to post this. My family, and millions others, now live lives they simply could not have lived before. Please explain to me how this is the work of a terrorist, or how in any way the work of the armed wing of the ANC was not justified by the Apartheid regimes massacre of innocent children and women , and torture of prisoners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soweto_uprising http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soweto_uprising, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biko http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biko) and their numerous policies and their effects as explained above.

bananacurve 13y ago

Vapid articles like this are up voted on HN on the mistaken idea that this somehow is bringing America down a notch. Inaccuracies of this story aside, people that want America to fail would be much better served by actually building something useful themselves.

CraigJPerry 13y ago

I only found out today how Nelson Mandella place in Glasgow city centre got its name. To piss off SA, the street their embassy was on was renamed while he was still being held. There's more the story: http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22976781 http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22976781

owenmarshall 13y ago
This is the same reason that there is a Bobby Sands Street in downtown Tehran. The UK embassy responded by moving their main entrance to a side door on a different street so they wouldn't be forced to put Bobby Sands on their letterhead, official documents, etc.

deleted 13y ago

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ismail 13y ago

Also to get a more accurate reflection, tune in to Radio 702 (Wont be much now since its 11pm) but you could possibly catch some clips from people who actually knew him. http://www.ourmadiba.com/reflect.html http://www.ourmadiba.com/reflect.html http://www.702.co.za/index_site.asp http://www.702.co.za/index_site.asp