16 ms·

Real Men Go to Sleep

247 points by r0h1n 13y ago

cdbattags 13y ago
ironic that this is upvoted while the US is asleep
- bilalq 13y ago
  Or rather, should be asleep. Working odd hours late at night was a habit I developed while doing my undergrad. Unfortunately, I ended up carrying it over into my professional life as well, and I'm certainly not alone in that regard. It's almost 3am here, and I still find myself working.
- timdev2 13y ago
  The hell we are. :-/
- eitally 13y ago
  Heh, real people wake up early to take advantage of the uber-productive time between 5-7am.
  - mhurron 13y ago
    I hate that I know there is a 5am. Unfortunately this week I'm in a training class and have to get there earlier than I usually have to get to work. I can't wait to sleep this weekend.
- spuz 13y ago
  I hope that the US does not account for every upvote on HN. This article applies to pretty much every working culture in the world.
x0054 13y ago
While studying for the bar, I used to take 2 hour 'naps' in the middle of the day. My schedule was 4 hours on, some food and nap, 4 hours on. Probably most productive 3 months of my life. I got to say, those siesta embracing countries might be on to something.
- louthy 13y ago
  It's thought to be a more natural sleep pattern, and us westerners have beaten it out of ourselves: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 "His book At Day's Close: Night in Times Past, published four years later, unearths more than 500 references to a segmented sleeping pattern - in diaries, court records, medical books and literature, from Homer's Odyssey to an anthropological account of modern tribes in Nigeria. "
  - mgr86 13y ago
    I was not aware of this book. Sounds fascinating. One of my favorite articles I've ever read was in an anthropological course that detailed some of these same findings cross culturally. The title of the article is "Slumbers Unexplored Landscape" I'd link to it but what I've found is I believe behind a paywall. I'm employed at a university so sometimes I don't notice paywalls.
- mathattack 13y ago
  I agree. A weekend nap is a beautiful thing. Couldn't pull it off at work. Sometimes I cheat by having coffee just before. Then I wake up 20 mins later with the dual benefit of sleep plus caffeine kicking in.
  - agilebyte 13y ago
    This kind of a pillow wouldn't work? :) http://designyoutrust.com/productdesign/power-nap-office-pillow/ http://designyoutrust.com/productdesign/power-nap-office-pil...
    - mathattack 13y ago
      It would be glorious, but probably borrowed away very quickly!
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- 13y ago
StandardFuture 13y ago
This article argues that the 'American idea' of regarding sleep as weak/unecessary stems from the early industrial days with men like Thomas Edison. Hmmm ... it seems that the American industrial age and beyond has had a lot more productivity than at any other time in history. And you know who else didn't consider sleep of very high importance? Isaac Newton. Oh, but some guy writing a random article with nearly zero authority has accomplished SO MUCH MORE than any of those men right? I understand the importance of sleep and its effects on mentality and productivity. But, I really don't think we are going to properly understand the implications behind sleeping schedules for individual (types) with some random internet articles that we keep linking to on HN. EDIT: This may get downvoted, but since I assume HN is an intellectual discussion site, it would be appropriate to offer up your counter-arguments to my points rather than just give a "NAY!" gesture hiding anonymously under the guise of some sort of self-righteousness. Thanks.
- atlantic 13y ago
  The OP cites scientifically-established correlations between low productivity and sleep deprivation. You, on the other hand, point to a couple of heavyweight counter-examples (Edison and Newton), plus one historical period (early industrial) and leave it at that. Macho attitudes like yours are the exact reason why common-sense attitudes to sleeping hours have not taken hold in companies. There doesn't seem to be much to argue with in your comment.
  - StandardFuture 13y ago
    This is an oversimplification of an already simpleminded discussion (in pursuit of being able to "justify" conclusions you have built on presumptions beforehand). I am not sure where this irrelevant accusation of "macho attitudes" came from but it certainly fell in line with using terminology similar to what the article use with words like "effeminate" and "male champions". And yet this article contradicts your argument by naming several (large) companies incorporating sleep-is-good attitudes. SO I highly doubt that my singular paragraph offering contradictory arguments for the sake of discussion and clarity is the reason why "common-sense attitudes ... have not taken hold in companies". Regardless of studies that have shown individualized scenarios of productivity loss due to sleep deprivation (also dependent on numerous external and internal parameters) there are still counter examples that cannot be scientifically ignored. Your (appeared) devotion to 'scientific-establishment' is just you using particular studies to justify held beliefs (and/or just to be in agreement with localized observations e.g. your personal dependency on sleep or those you work with).
androidb 13y ago
Closed the page before reading the article for the fact that they popped up a modal advertisement window with a black background - ironic is that Adblock removed the ad content so it was a white box on a black background.
- PhantomGremlin 13y ago
  Forget Adblock, just use NoScript. The article was perfectly viewable for me. Not trying to start a holy war, NoScript isn't a universal cure. There is plenty of content linked to from HN that requires JS. (However, I don't bother reading most of it!)
  - terabytest 13y ago
    I think the consequences of using NoScript outweigh the benefits. I don't think I could stand 40% of the sites I use being unusable due to lack of JavaScript, that's not how it's meant to be.
    - ronaldx 13y ago
      Using Noscript, you can whitelist sites or unblock case-by-case. Or, you can recognise that not functioning at all without JavaScript generally indicates a lack of interest in the user experience.
      - terabytest 13y ago
        I'd rather say it's a lack of resources and interest in addressing a minority and jumping through hoops to make functionality that wouldn't work without JavaScript work without it. I'm not saying it shouldn't work when JavaScript is disabled, but some sites have functionality that cannot be easily (or quickly) reproduced without JS. They don't do it because they hate you or because they hate proper user experience.
        ronaldx 13y ago
pantalaimon 13y ago
All real people sleep. It's robots that don't, but I think they could easily fake it.
- mathattack 13y ago
  And their brains could use time for garbage collection and defragmentation.
- zacinbusiness 13y ago
  Data has an "off switch," and he powers down sometimes (I forget why). Not sure if he dreams of electric sheep or not.
waterlion 13y ago
What? I just see a black screen with INVEST IN YOURSELF. I cannot understand the confusion of ideas that leads people to prevent visitors from reaching their content. I'm not going to click that ad, I'm not going to view your page so I'm not going to see the other ads on that page either.
- mikegriff 13y ago
  That was my reaction as well. Clicked the back button straight away and went looking in the comments to find out what was said in the article.
- chaosphere2112 13y ago
  I actually had two separate full screen ads when I tried to visit this page on my phone.
- snarfy 13y ago
  view source -> delete spammy node
  - levosmetalo 13y ago
    Why bother? This kind pic ads is just an indicator of poor content.
    - enraged_camel 13y ago
      In my experience, HBR very rarely has poor content.
    - chc 13y ago
      Not a very good indicator — the writer has nothing to do with the ad platform.
- Hellenion 13y ago
  With javascript disabled, I am only locked out when the author didn't intend to do so.
hownottowrite 13y ago
At Day's Close by Roger Ekirch is a great book about our historical relationship to the night (sleep and not sleeping). http://www.amazon.com/At-Days-Close-Night-Times/dp/0393329011 http://www.amazon.com/At-Days-Close-Night-Times/dp/039332901...
dpcheng2003 13y ago
Or it can just say healthy, productive people go to sleep. I find the "real men" headline bait almost as annoying as the pop-up.
- drcube 13y ago
  I think it's A) a callback to the "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche" book/concept. And B) trying to overcome the macho, ego mentality that they feel is driving professionals to sleep less.
  - visakanv 13y ago
    It is. Some people believe that we should lead the concept into healthier territories, which would be a superior outcome to the status quo. Others believe we should avoid using it altogether, and that any use of the term automatically perpetuates the macho, ego mentality- whether intentionally or not. There's not much winning to be had, I've never seen anybody really change their minds about this, because we feel good about the side we pick. Best IMHO to just acknowledge the deeper issue, address it and keep moving forward.
- billmalarky 13y ago
  I was honestly expecting it to point out that lack of sleep kills your testosterone levels (it didn't). As it turns out, "real" men really do get sleep.
- badman_ting 13y ago
  Me too. Real men don't need biz-mag headlines to tell them what makes them a man.
deleted 13y ago
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- bellabell 13y ago
  Sometimes I worry how men standing up for women act on how much they think women are offended, rather than how much women are actually offended. You're blowing this way out of proportion.
- DanielStraight 13y ago
  The title isn't intended to be funny. It's intended to be dismissive of, and in opposition to, the attitude that "sleep is for sissies" mentioned in the article. Compare: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/11/ashton-kutcher-demi-moore-trafficking_n_847291.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/11/ashton-kutcher-demi... It's about directly opposing what is seen as a prevailing view of masculinity. Sure, it might be intended to be entertaining as well, but it's not primarily an attempt at humor. It's saying: "Here's a bunch of people who say real men don't sleep. They're wrong; real men sleep."
- theorique 13y ago
  C'mon, if you were a real man, it would be no big deal ... But seriously, I think the point is that it's considered 'manly' to work hard and not sleep enough. The title of the article takes on that myth directly.
- 001sky 13y ago
  implies some definition of manhood and [therefore] demeans the reputation of the publisher This doesn't follow by way of logic
- deleted 13y ago
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- sp332 13y ago
  I thought it was a play on the book Real Men Don't Eat Quiche which had a bunch of funny rules for "real men". The book wasn't supposed to be serious, and the formula is often used to poke fun at people who think that way.
spuz 13y ago
It was my understanding that while Google has nap rooms in some offices, they are seldom used. The culture is geared around long hours and if you are seen to be napping that is seen as a potential sign of weakness. Of course I could be completely wrong (I'm just pulling this idea out of a vague memory of reading about it here on HN) so I hope a Google employee will correct me. However, it seems reasonable that a company would need to do more than just offer the opportunity to take breaks, work from home and work sensible hours. The culture of seeing hard workers as more valuable must be a difficult one to break.
- erre 13y ago
  I'm not a Google employee, but I once visited their Zürich office and was shown the nap room. Not only was it really cool, but there were several people using it (just after lunch).
  - GFischer 13y ago
    That would be a great perk :) . I'd definitely be more productive and be able to work longer hours if I was able to take a nap (not that I want to work longer hours :) ).
  - abrichr 13y ago
    There's definitely a significant difference in attitudes towards sleep and work between Europe and the US. Perhaps someone who has experience working in both can comment.
    - erre 13y ago
      Ah, yes, good point. Also, FWIW, this was about 3 years ago.
    - switch007 13y ago
      The attitudes vary wildly within Europe, too. It's a big place.
    - oscardelben 13y ago
zacinbusiness 13y ago
My schedule is really weird. Because I work in America for a company in Scandinavia there is a pretty wide time difference. When I first started they asked if I could be "at work" around 8 or 9 my time, which is very reasonable considering that is 2 or 3 their time. I often volunteer to wake up early when there's something important that's going to happen, and I often work late into the night if I'm trying to get something accomplished, but it's all of my own doing - they never ask me to, or tell me that I have to, and I've actually been politely asked to go to bed before. On normal working days, though, I wake up naturally around 6, go through my normal routine, and am "at work" by 7-8 anyway. And then I work until around 1 or 2 at which point I take a nap for an hour or so, and then I get back to work until I've finished all my major tasks for that day which is typically 4 or 5. After that, I'm free to do whatever I want, and I try to get to bed by 11 so that I can be sure to wake up the next day fully rested (this is mostly out of respect for my employer rather than out of a sense of habit or of good health).
- vetler 13y ago
  What kind of work do you do?
  - zacinbusiness 13y ago
    I do what is best described as marketing automation. For instance setting up campaigns that will send personalized content messages to client customers (think the offers that you receive from a company such a Bestbuy). So there's a lot of planning and testing involved before the campaigns are executed. Then there's other things like designing some business processes and, occasionally, editing some HTML here and there.
mfjordvald 13y ago
At our offices in China almost everyone naps during the lunch break. Lights gets turned off and fold out beds dominate the floor space. Took a bit to get used to when I first got here but it's actually quite nice to get a short nap in the middle of the day.
- fatihdonmez 13y ago
  I was loving it when i was expat there. now sleepless lunch times in my country.
Dogamondo 13y ago
Is this the premise of where the saying "you snooze, you lose" came from?
Gyy0 13y ago
"Sleep is for sissies." also reflected in the Ben Franklin maxim "There will be plenty of time to sleep once you are dead." A friend had a short stint working in Taiwan and he was surprised by the fact that almost everyone took a nap sometime during the day. Long term thinking that.
rayiner 13y ago
Some small portion of the population naturally needs less sleep: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=genetic-mutation-sleep-less http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=genetic-mut.... For everyone else, you're not going to beat those people by trying to emulate their sleeping habits. There is definitely a "sleep is for losers" kind of machismo that pervades professional industries, but it's stupid. While sometimes you have to cut in on sleep to get something out the door, making a habit of not getting much sleep isn't likely to be a competitive advantage for you in the long run. Ironically, its the sorts of professions that glorify not sleeping that tend to require the quick thinking, creativity, and careful attention to detail that is undermined by not sleeping. It's worth while to cut into other things to make time for adequate sleep.
josefresco 13y ago
I take my sleep advice from infamous hip hop artist Nas - "I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death" In reality I sleep 8+ hours and laugh at those who "boast" at how little sleep, or how many hours they work at the expense of other valuable things in their life (family, socializing etc.) Also, a lot of these comments are about the mid-afternoon/post lunch nap. Honestly I'd prefer to get home to my family a bit earlier, than take a mid day siesta and have to come home later in the evening. Getting up early and clocking out early are especially tempting given how little daylight we have (Northeast US) this time of year.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- hfsktr 13y ago
  Everywhere I've worked (for the most part) you had to be there between 8-5 (roughly). You just couldn't leave early even if you came in early. I know it's not like that everywhere. My current job I am almost always the last one here by 5 and it's just hard to break the habit that I have to be here until closing time. Exceptions were made if you made arrangements with management but usually only people with families or college/schooling got any leeway.
  - Romoku 13y ago
    I work 7:00 - 3:30 and go home early on Fridays.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      wait, how can you go home earlier than 3h30? :)
- monxxx 13y ago
  Men who are unhappy, like men who sleep badly, are always proud of the fact.
nlh 13y ago
The culture of "napping = weakness / laziness" is still so prevalent in the US workforce. It's frustrating - because it's not logical, it's just pretty deeply ingrained. I set up a (rather nice) nap room at my company's office and I'm the only person who EVER uses it. It turned into a storage room. I sent articles about the virtues of napping - the studies - the benefits - the facts - to all of my employees, and nobody seems to care. I _still_ get an eye-roll when I head off to the nap room in the middle of the day for a 20-minute power nap. Meanwhile, the employees in the office just head to the espresso machine and down shot after shot to keep themselves lit up. It's so odd - I can explain 100 times over how I get all the benefits of caffeine (and MORE) by taking a 20-minute nap, and they just don't seem to care. Deeply ingrained, hard-to-change views.
- rfnslyr 13y ago
  Could you link some? I want to read more about sleep in general. Why 20 minutes? Why not 30, or 40? I keep seeing the magical 20 everywhere.
  - larrys 13y ago
    Has something to do with sleep cycles. But don't worry about what is written. Just give it a try and see how much you naturally sleep for and when you wake up and go from there. This can be as simple as just laying your head down on a desk with an eye patch and ear plugs. Airline tarmack type ear muffs also work well for this and completely block out most noise. Everyone is different. I don't care much for what has been written about this I just experiment and have found what works for me. I have been doing this from way before there were even things written or it was something that was even considered a strategy. To me it just made sense. I don't really care what others do or whether they think it's good or bad.
  - hfsktr 13y ago
    I recall reading that anything over an hour disrupts your sleep pattern. 20 minutes might be a magical number for best effects. It also might be the length of a lunch someone gives up to nap after eating (or could be the full lunch).
  - 13y ago
trynumber9 13y ago
I'd love to nap. But no matter when, where and how I try, I feel more tired afterward. It doesn't help me. I just need a good night's sleep instead.
anonhacker 13y ago
I'll have to admit that I try to get away with as little sleep as possible. It's not that I'm trying to be a hero or show that I'm macho, I'm doing the whole nights and weekends thing to work on my product because I'm driven to make it successful and it feels absurd to trade off progress for sleep. I'm well aware of the potential consequences health and otherwise but I see it as a short term cost for a long term benefit.
- rfnslyr 13y ago
  8+ hour sleeps every night is probably the single life rule I strictly abide by. Wake up not groggy, but refreshed, ready. Entire day you're just a power house.
- nostromo 13y ago
  I'm in my early 30s now, and I've noticed among my friends that the folks who aren't regularly getting enough sleep have seemed to prematurely aged. It's not one big noticeable thing, but it's lots of little things, like how good their skin looks, how much gray they have, what there energy level is. Don't ask for sources, because I don't have any, this is just an anecdote and a hunch. :) I'm in the fortunate position now of being able to set my own work schedule. I almost never use an alarm clock, but I still get up around 8am, which is my personal indicator that I'm sleeping enough. I've also found that I have no problem working 12 or 14 hour days, much more than your average worker, but when I do so, I never take the time away from sleeping, but other activities instead.
- cesarbs 13y ago
  You would probably make even more progress if you allowed yourself a good sleep schedule. If you "try to get away with as little sleep as possible", it is very likely you are sleep deprived, which leads to bad decisions and more frequent mistakes.
  - anonhacker 13y ago
    It's reasonable to assume I'm hurting my productivity but like I said I'm doing the whole nights and weekends thing, a couple extra hours of less productive work is better than none. As far as grogginess/tiredness after you wake up goes that's related to where in your sleep cycle you wake up. I use one of the numerous iPhone/Android apps that use the accelerator to detect and wake you up at the end of a sleep phase.
alphanumeric0 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
pshin45 13y ago
I wish I could find it again, but I remember reading about a study that stated that a small percentage of the population, maybe 5% or 10%, are genetically wired so that they actually can function normally with only 4 or 5 hours of sleep. It seemed to make sense, especially when I later heard stories of professional athletes like Gilbert Arenas (professional basketball player) who were able to play at a very high level despite regularly only getting only 3 hours of sleep per night during the NBA season. It got me to thinking that maybe these "Sleep is for the weak" proponents like Thomas Edison, Donald Trump, and Uber's Travis Kalanick belong to this genetically blessed contingent of the general population, and that they may be mistakenly propagating this false belief that "If I can do it, everyone should else be able to do it, otherwise you're just being lazy." It would be awesome if someone could help me dig up that study.
- jacalata 13y ago
  This Harvard sleep summary page [0] gives a few references at the bottom for similar sounding studies. [0] http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/science/variations/individual-variation-genetics http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/science/variatio...
yetanotherphd 13y ago
I feel that it's somewhat unfortunately that comments tend to hijack articles and focus on something the article isn't about. This article only mentioned napping in passing. The main topics were cultural attitudes towards sleep, allowing for flexible work schedules, and eliminating graveyard shifts.
bobbles 13y ago
This is what I get to see when I visit this website: http://i.imgur.com/aQE2AVD.png http://i.imgur.com/aQE2AVD.png what a great experience.
abalashov 13y ago
Two problems with this for me: 1) I can't just nap like that. I can lay there for thirty minutes, an hour, or more, without falling asleep. Reading or watching something usually helps, but in all cases, the degree of exhaustion, or other fatigue or unconsciousness-inducing factor, has to be fairly high. 2) I can't wake up after 20-30 minutes. I just can't. If I'm going to take a nap, it's going to turn into a 2-3 hour nap (and more often, a 3-4 hour nap). And then I'll be up all night.

247 points by r0h1n 13y ago

cdbattags 13y ago

ironic that this is upvoted while the US is asleep

bilalq 13y ago
Or rather, should be asleep. Working odd hours late at night was a habit I developed while doing my undergrad. Unfortunately, I ended up carrying it over into my professional life as well, and I'm certainly not alone in that regard. It's almost 3am here, and I still find myself working.
timdev2 13y ago
The hell we are. :-/
eitally 13y ago
Heh, real people wake up early to take advantage of the uber-productive time between 5-7am.
- mhurron 13y ago
  I hate that I know there is a 5am. Unfortunately this week I'm in a training class and have to get there earlier than I usually have to get to work. I can't wait to sleep this weekend.
spuz 13y ago
I hope that the US does not account for every upvote on HN. This article applies to pretty much every working culture in the world.

x0054 13y ago

While studying for the bar, I used to take 2 hour 'naps' in the middle of the day. My schedule was 4 hours on, some food and nap, 4 hours on. Probably most productive 3 months of my life. I got to say, those siesta embracing countries might be on to something.

louthy 13y ago
It's thought to be a more natural sleep pattern, and us westerners have beaten it out of ourselves: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 "His book At Day's Close: Night in Times Past, published four years later, unearths more than 500 references to a segmented sleeping pattern - in diaries, court records, medical books and literature, from Homer's Odyssey to an anthropological account of modern tribes in Nigeria. "
- mgr86 13y ago
  I was not aware of this book. Sounds fascinating. One of my favorite articles I've ever read was in an anthropological course that detailed some of these same findings cross culturally. The title of the article is "Slumbers Unexplored Landscape" I'd link to it but what I've found is I believe behind a paywall. I'm employed at a university so sometimes I don't notice paywalls.
mathattack 13y ago
I agree. A weekend nap is a beautiful thing. Couldn't pull it off at work. Sometimes I cheat by having coffee just before. Then I wake up 20 mins later with the dual benefit of sleep plus caffeine kicking in.
- agilebyte 13y ago
  This kind of a pillow wouldn't work? :) http://designyoutrust.com/productdesign/power-nap-office-pillow/ http://designyoutrust.com/productdesign/power-nap-office-pil...
  - mathattack 13y ago
    It would be glorious, but probably borrowed away very quickly!
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
13y ago

StandardFuture 13y ago

This article argues that the 'American idea' of regarding sleep as weak/unecessary stems from the early industrial days with men like Thomas Edison. Hmmm ... it seems that the American industrial age and beyond has had a lot more productivity than at any other time in history. And you know who else didn't consider sleep of very high importance? Isaac Newton. Oh, but some guy writing a random article with nearly zero authority has accomplished SO MUCH MORE than any of those men right? I understand the importance of sleep and its effects on mentality and productivity. But, I really don't think we are going to properly understand the implications behind sleeping schedules for individual (types) with some random internet articles that we keep linking to on HN. EDIT: This may get downvoted, but since I assume HN is an intellectual discussion site, it would be appropriate to offer up your counter-arguments to my points rather than just give a "NAY!" gesture hiding anonymously under the guise of some sort of self-righteousness. Thanks.

atlantic 13y ago
The OP cites scientifically-established correlations between low productivity and sleep deprivation. You, on the other hand, point to a couple of heavyweight counter-examples (Edison and Newton), plus one historical period (early industrial) and leave it at that. Macho attitudes like yours are the exact reason why common-sense attitudes to sleeping hours have not taken hold in companies. There doesn't seem to be much to argue with in your comment.
- StandardFuture 13y ago
  This is an oversimplification of an already simpleminded discussion (in pursuit of being able to "justify" conclusions you have built on presumptions beforehand). I am not sure where this irrelevant accusation of "macho attitudes" came from but it certainly fell in line with using terminology similar to what the article use with words like "effeminate" and "male champions". And yet this article contradicts your argument by naming several (large) companies incorporating sleep-is-good attitudes. SO I highly doubt that my singular paragraph offering contradictory arguments for the sake of discussion and clarity is the reason why "common-sense attitudes ... have not taken hold in companies". Regardless of studies that have shown individualized scenarios of productivity loss due to sleep deprivation (also dependent on numerous external and internal parameters) there are still counter examples that cannot be scientifically ignored. Your (appeared) devotion to 'scientific-establishment' is just you using particular studies to justify held beliefs (and/or just to be in agreement with localized observations e.g. your personal dependency on sleep or those you work with).

androidb 13y ago

Closed the page before reading the article for the fact that they popped up a modal advertisement window with a black background - ironic is that Adblock removed the ad content so it was a white box on a black background.

PhantomGremlin 13y ago
Forget Adblock, just use NoScript. The article was perfectly viewable for me. Not trying to start a holy war, NoScript isn't a universal cure. There is plenty of content linked to from HN that requires JS. (However, I don't bother reading most of it!)
- terabytest 13y ago
  I think the consequences of using NoScript outweigh the benefits. I don't think I could stand 40% of the sites I use being unusable due to lack of JavaScript, that's not how it's meant to be.
  - ronaldx 13y ago
    Using Noscript, you can whitelist sites or unblock case-by-case. Or, you can recognise that not functioning at all without JavaScript generally indicates a lack of interest in the user experience.
    - terabytest 13y ago
      I'd rather say it's a lack of resources and interest in addressing a minority and jumping through hoops to make functionality that wouldn't work without JavaScript work without it. I'm not saying it shouldn't work when JavaScript is disabled, but some sites have functionality that cannot be easily (or quickly) reproduced without JS. They don't do it because they hate you or because they hate proper user experience.
      - ronaldx 13y ago

pantalaimon 13y ago

All real people sleep. It's robots that don't, but I think they could easily fake it.

mathattack 13y ago
And their brains could use time for garbage collection and defragmentation.
zacinbusiness 13y ago
Data has an "off switch," and he powers down sometimes (I forget why). Not sure if he dreams of electric sheep or not.

waterlion 13y ago

What? I just see a black screen with INVEST IN YOURSELF. I cannot understand the confusion of ideas that leads people to prevent visitors from reaching their content. I'm not going to click that ad, I'm not going to view your page so I'm not going to see the other ads on that page either.

mikegriff 13y ago
That was my reaction as well. Clicked the back button straight away and went looking in the comments to find out what was said in the article.
chaosphere2112 13y ago
I actually had two separate full screen ads when I tried to visit this page on my phone.
snarfy 13y ago
view source -> delete spammy node
- levosmetalo 13y ago
  Why bother? This kind pic ads is just an indicator of poor content.
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    In my experience, HBR very rarely has poor content.
  - chc 13y ago
    Not a very good indicator — the writer has nothing to do with the ad platform.
Hellenion 13y ago
With javascript disabled, I am only locked out when the author didn't intend to do so.

hownottowrite 13y ago

At Day's Close by Roger Ekirch is a great book about our historical relationship to the night (sleep and not sleeping). http://www.amazon.com/At-Days-Close-Night-Times/dp/0393329011 http://www.amazon.com/At-Days-Close-Night-Times/dp/039332901...

dpcheng2003 13y ago

Or it can just say healthy, productive people go to sleep. I find the "real men" headline bait almost as annoying as the pop-up.

drcube 13y ago
I think it's A) a callback to the "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche" book/concept. And B) trying to overcome the macho, ego mentality that they feel is driving professionals to sleep less.
- visakanv 13y ago
  It is. Some people believe that we should lead the concept into healthier territories, which would be a superior outcome to the status quo. Others believe we should avoid using it altogether, and that any use of the term automatically perpetuates the macho, ego mentality- whether intentionally or not. There's not much winning to be had, I've never seen anybody really change their minds about this, because we feel good about the side we pick. Best IMHO to just acknowledge the deeper issue, address it and keep moving forward.
billmalarky 13y ago
I was honestly expecting it to point out that lack of sleep kills your testosterone levels (it didn't). As it turns out, "real" men really do get sleep.
badman_ting 13y ago
Me too. Real men don't need biz-mag headlines to tell them what makes them a man.

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bellabell 13y ago
Sometimes I worry how men standing up for women act on how much they think women are offended, rather than how much women are actually offended. You're blowing this way out of proportion.
DanielStraight 13y ago
The title isn't intended to be funny. It's intended to be dismissive of, and in opposition to, the attitude that "sleep is for sissies" mentioned in the article. Compare: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/11/ashton-kutcher-demi-moore-trafficking_n_847291.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/11/ashton-kutcher-demi... It's about directly opposing what is seen as a prevailing view of masculinity. Sure, it might be intended to be entertaining as well, but it's not primarily an attempt at humor. It's saying: "Here's a bunch of people who say real men don't sleep. They're wrong; real men sleep."
theorique 13y ago
C'mon, if you were a real man, it would be no big deal ... But seriously, I think the point is that it's considered 'manly' to work hard and not sleep enough. The title of the article takes on that myth directly.
001sky 13y ago
implies some definition of manhood and [therefore] demeans the reputation of the publisher This doesn't follow by way of logic
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sp332 13y ago
I thought it was a play on the book Real Men Don't Eat Quiche which had a bunch of funny rules for "real men". The book wasn't supposed to be serious, and the formula is often used to poke fun at people who think that way.

spuz 13y ago

It was my understanding that while Google has nap rooms in some offices, they are seldom used. The culture is geared around long hours and if you are seen to be napping that is seen as a potential sign of weakness. Of course I could be completely wrong (I'm just pulling this idea out of a vague memory of reading about it here on HN) so I hope a Google employee will correct me. However, it seems reasonable that a company would need to do more than just offer the opportunity to take breaks, work from home and work sensible hours. The culture of seeing hard workers as more valuable must be a difficult one to break.

erre 13y ago
I'm not a Google employee, but I once visited their Zürich office and was shown the nap room. Not only was it really cool, but there were several people using it (just after lunch).
- GFischer 13y ago
  That would be a great perk :) . I'd definitely be more productive and be able to work longer hours if I was able to take a nap (not that I want to work longer hours :) ).
- abrichr 13y ago
  There's definitely a significant difference in attitudes towards sleep and work between Europe and the US. Perhaps someone who has experience working in both can comment.
  - erre 13y ago
    Ah, yes, good point. Also, FWIW, this was about 3 years ago.
  - switch007 13y ago
    The attitudes vary wildly within Europe, too. It's a big place.
  - oscardelben 13y ago

zacinbusiness 13y ago

My schedule is really weird. Because I work in America for a company in Scandinavia there is a pretty wide time difference. When I first started they asked if I could be "at work" around 8 or 9 my time, which is very reasonable considering that is 2 or 3 their time. I often volunteer to wake up early when there's something important that's going to happen, and I often work late into the night if I'm trying to get something accomplished, but it's all of my own doing - they never ask me to, or tell me that I have to, and I've actually been politely asked to go to bed before. On normal working days, though, I wake up naturally around 6, go through my normal routine, and am "at work" by 7-8 anyway. And then I work until around 1 or 2 at which point I take a nap for an hour or so, and then I get back to work until I've finished all my major tasks for that day which is typically 4 or 5. After that, I'm free to do whatever I want, and I try to get to bed by 11 so that I can be sure to wake up the next day fully rested (this is mostly out of respect for my employer rather than out of a sense of habit or of good health).

vetler 13y ago
What kind of work do you do?
- zacinbusiness 13y ago
  I do what is best described as marketing automation. For instance setting up campaigns that will send personalized content messages to client customers (think the offers that you receive from a company such a Bestbuy). So there's a lot of planning and testing involved before the campaigns are executed. Then there's other things like designing some business processes and, occasionally, editing some HTML here and there.

mfjordvald 13y ago

At our offices in China almost everyone naps during the lunch break. Lights gets turned off and fold out beds dominate the floor space. Took a bit to get used to when I first got here but it's actually quite nice to get a short nap in the middle of the day.

fatihdonmez 13y ago
I was loving it when i was expat there. now sleepless lunch times in my country.

Dogamondo 13y ago

Is this the premise of where the saying "you snooze, you lose" came from?

Gyy0 13y ago

"Sleep is for sissies." also reflected in the Ben Franklin maxim "There will be plenty of time to sleep once you are dead." A friend had a short stint working in Taiwan and he was surprised by the fact that almost everyone took a nap sometime during the day. Long term thinking that.

rayiner 13y ago

Some small portion of the population naturally needs less sleep: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=genetic-mutation-sleep-less http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=genetic-mut.... For everyone else, you're not going to beat those people by trying to emulate their sleeping habits. There is definitely a "sleep is for losers" kind of machismo that pervades professional industries, but it's stupid. While sometimes you have to cut in on sleep to get something out the door, making a habit of not getting much sleep isn't likely to be a competitive advantage for you in the long run. Ironically, its the sorts of professions that glorify not sleeping that tend to require the quick thinking, creativity, and careful attention to detail that is undermined by not sleeping. It's worth while to cut into other things to make time for adequate sleep.

josefresco 13y ago

I take my sleep advice from infamous hip hop artist Nas - "I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death" In reality I sleep 8+ hours and laugh at those who "boast" at how little sleep, or how many hours they work at the expense of other valuable things in their life (family, socializing etc.) Also, a lot of these comments are about the mid-afternoon/post lunch nap. Honestly I'd prefer to get home to my family a bit earlier, than take a mid day siesta and have to come home later in the evening. Getting up early and clocking out early are especially tempting given how little daylight we have (Northeast US) this time of year.

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hfsktr 13y ago
Everywhere I've worked (for the most part) you had to be there between 8-5 (roughly). You just couldn't leave early even if you came in early. I know it's not like that everywhere. My current job I am almost always the last one here by 5 and it's just hard to break the habit that I have to be here until closing time. Exceptions were made if you made arrangements with management but usually only people with families or college/schooling got any leeway.
- Romoku 13y ago
  I work 7:00 - 3:30 and go home early on Fridays.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    wait, how can you go home earlier than 3h30? :)
monxxx 13y ago
Men who are unhappy, like men who sleep badly, are always proud of the fact.

nlh 13y ago

The culture of "napping = weakness / laziness" is still so prevalent in the US workforce. It's frustrating - because it's not logical, it's just pretty deeply ingrained. I set up a (rather nice) nap room at my company's office and I'm the only person who EVER uses it. It turned into a storage room. I sent articles about the virtues of napping - the studies - the benefits - the facts - to all of my employees, and nobody seems to care. I _still_ get an eye-roll when I head off to the nap room in the middle of the day for a 20-minute power nap. Meanwhile, the employees in the office just head to the espresso machine and down shot after shot to keep themselves lit up. It's so odd - I can explain 100 times over how I get all the benefits of caffeine (and MORE) by taking a 20-minute nap, and they just don't seem to care. Deeply ingrained, hard-to-change views.

rfnslyr 13y ago
Could you link some? I want to read more about sleep in general. Why 20 minutes? Why not 30, or 40? I keep seeing the magical 20 everywhere.
- larrys 13y ago
  Has something to do with sleep cycles. But don't worry about what is written. Just give it a try and see how much you naturally sleep for and when you wake up and go from there. This can be as simple as just laying your head down on a desk with an eye patch and ear plugs. Airline tarmack type ear muffs also work well for this and completely block out most noise. Everyone is different. I don't care much for what has been written about this I just experiment and have found what works for me. I have been doing this from way before there were even things written or it was something that was even considered a strategy. To me it just made sense. I don't really care what others do or whether they think it's good or bad.
- hfsktr 13y ago
  I recall reading that anything over an hour disrupts your sleep pattern. 20 minutes might be a magical number for best effects. It also might be the length of a lunch someone gives up to nap after eating (or could be the full lunch).
- 13y ago

trynumber9 13y ago

I'd love to nap. But no matter when, where and how I try, I feel more tired afterward. It doesn't help me. I just need a good night's sleep instead.

anonhacker 13y ago

I'll have to admit that I try to get away with as little sleep as possible. It's not that I'm trying to be a hero or show that I'm macho, I'm doing the whole nights and weekends thing to work on my product because I'm driven to make it successful and it feels absurd to trade off progress for sleep. I'm well aware of the potential consequences health and otherwise but I see it as a short term cost for a long term benefit.

rfnslyr 13y ago
8+ hour sleeps every night is probably the single life rule I strictly abide by. Wake up not groggy, but refreshed, ready. Entire day you're just a power house.
nostromo 13y ago
I'm in my early 30s now, and I've noticed among my friends that the folks who aren't regularly getting enough sleep have seemed to prematurely aged. It's not one big noticeable thing, but it's lots of little things, like how good their skin looks, how much gray they have, what there energy level is. Don't ask for sources, because I don't have any, this is just an anecdote and a hunch. :) I'm in the fortunate position now of being able to set my own work schedule. I almost never use an alarm clock, but I still get up around 8am, which is my personal indicator that I'm sleeping enough. I've also found that I have no problem working 12 or 14 hour days, much more than your average worker, but when I do so, I never take the time away from sleeping, but other activities instead.
cesarbs 13y ago
You would probably make even more progress if you allowed yourself a good sleep schedule. If you "try to get away with as little sleep as possible", it is very likely you are sleep deprived, which leads to bad decisions and more frequent mistakes.
- anonhacker 13y ago
  It's reasonable to assume I'm hurting my productivity but like I said I'm doing the whole nights and weekends thing, a couple extra hours of less productive work is better than none. As far as grogginess/tiredness after you wake up goes that's related to where in your sleep cycle you wake up. I use one of the numerous iPhone/Android apps that use the accelerator to detect and wake you up at the end of a sleep phase.

alphanumeric0 13y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

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pshin45 13y ago

I wish I could find it again, but I remember reading about a study that stated that a small percentage of the population, maybe 5% or 10%, are genetically wired so that they actually can function normally with only 4 or 5 hours of sleep. It seemed to make sense, especially when I later heard stories of professional athletes like Gilbert Arenas (professional basketball player) who were able to play at a very high level despite regularly only getting only 3 hours of sleep per night during the NBA season. It got me to thinking that maybe these "Sleep is for the weak" proponents like Thomas Edison, Donald Trump, and Uber's Travis Kalanick belong to this genetically blessed contingent of the general population, and that they may be mistakenly propagating this false belief that "If I can do it, everyone should else be able to do it, otherwise you're just being lazy." It would be awesome if someone could help me dig up that study.

jacalata 13y ago
This Harvard sleep summary page [0] gives a few references at the bottom for similar sounding studies. [0] http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/science/variations/individual-variation-genetics http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/science/variatio...

yetanotherphd 13y ago

I feel that it's somewhat unfortunately that comments tend to hijack articles and focus on something the article isn't about. This article only mentioned napping in passing. The main topics were cultural attitudes towards sleep, allowing for flexible work schedules, and eliminating graveyard shifts.

bobbles 13y ago

This is what I get to see when I visit this website: http://i.imgur.com/aQE2AVD.png http://i.imgur.com/aQE2AVD.png what a great experience.

abalashov 13y ago

Two problems with this for me: 1) I can't just nap like that. I can lay there for thirty minutes, an hour, or more, without falling asleep. Reading or watching something usually helps, but in all cases, the degree of exhaustion, or other fatigue or unconsciousness-inducing factor, has to be fairly high. 2) I can't wake up after 20-30 minutes. I just can't. If I'm going to take a nap, it's going to turn into a 2-3 hour nap (and more often, a 3-4 hour nap). And then I'll be up all night.