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A lot of time has been spent by developers trying to get points. There is a cost to that. The site has enabled software vendors to slack off on their documenta

A lot of time has been spent by developers trying to get points. There is a cost to that. The site has enabled software vendors to slack off on their documentation. If there was no StackOverflow the vendors would have to do better. I'm thinking of msdn as an example since a lot of the Stack questions are MS technology based. MS is far from alone though. Much of the money saved has gone to vendors. Even given those points it has still saved a lot of money. But billions? I don't know if it would be that much. It would be interesting to know what the global number for reputation points is. There may be a correlation to money saved.

seiji 13y ago
I know programmers at microsoft who use SO as an intern. They just post questions about strange windows problems they can't work around. Somebody on SO will respond with a 1,000 word essay with 500 lines of code about it within a day, thus solving their problem with no employee time "wasted" by thinking or researching or paying for anything additional resources.
- AznHisoka 13y ago
  Ha, that's me. I'll post questions on how to write code, not just problems I can't work around. Then I go off and slack off, and wait until someone answers it. My version of "I'm compiling".
  - fat0wl 13y ago
    The microsoft thing is a little ethically strange but yeah i feel you on this.... if these try-hards wanna do your work for you just to get a "+10" may as well give them the privilege of "building their digital resume" while you read about something more interesting. Programmer culture involves too much self-glorification & SO embraces that in the hugest way. If the discussions were more interesting it would probably worth more attention but usually it's just some know-it-all quoting docs they just Googled for so they can lock down the question / points. I'm not sure I'd ever want to hire a SO mod...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
drawkbox 13y ago
When you answer questions and get points though you teach and that is the best training. Many times when I answer questions I find out more details and learn as well. Anytime a question is answered this is training investment for free really. It is also something that helps your programmer brand. With open source and sites like stackoverflow, a single programmer can become a team of programmers/knowledge very quickly. It is part of what has made each programmer better I believe. On the flip it has also made programmers more lazy possibly. Finding an answer and being able to solve and provide an answer to the question are two key pillars to providing solutions. So I'd say question answerers and associated companies are getting more out of it.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- dspillett 13y ago
  > Many times when I answer questions I find out more details and learn as well. I've experienced this several times too. In verifying details to make sure I'm not handing out duff information, I've stumbled over a semi-related point in the documentation that triggers a "I wasn't aware of that, I'll have to look into it as it might be very useful" response. Also I sometimes just browse for interesting questions. You occasionally stumble upon something you didn't know that you needed/wanted to know!
taspeotis 13y ago
The site has enabled software vendors to slack off on their documentation ... I'm thinking of msdn as an example The number of questions on SO that can be answered by RTFM is quite remarkable. I think that points to a lot of the documentation being just fine. The last bug of my own I spent any significant of time on was answerable by RTFM [1]. There are plenty of PHP+MySQL questions that appear where the OP is clearly learning about PHP+MySQL and the code looks something like... $result = mysql_query("select username, password from user where username = " . $username) ...shows that they haven't bothered to RTFM [2]. [1] I had made a new thread and was calling ShellExecute on it. It didn't work on some computers because I hadn't initialised COM (presumably they had some shell extensions installed). See the first sentence of "Remarks" http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb762153(v=vs.85).aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb76... [2] Big red box: http://www.php.net/mysql_query http://www.php.net/mysql_query
- ritchiea 13y ago
  I want to float a different hypothesis: the perception of programming is so hung up on the idea of individual brilliance that most people, especially beginners, don't even realize how much value there is in reading the manual. And we as programmers add to the problem. It's not very sexy to say that there is a lot of useful software out there written and documented by smart people and if you read that documentation, and think through a problem with great analytical detail you should be able to find a clear solution.
  - ep103 13y ago
    My experience has been that technet's documentation is so unreliable that I've learned to go to SO first.
    - doorhammer 13y ago
      Yeah, I goto SO (well, SO through google) because with most questions, I get a practical answer to my exact situation in seconds, as well as suggestions as to why or why not different approaches might be warranted. They're not all perfect, but it's usually food for thought.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> If there was no StackOverflow the vendors would have to do better. Documentation quality had been declining for many years before SO -- I think its more accurate to say that if vendors were doing better, there would be no (or less interest in) StackOverflow than the other way around.
- jgh 13y ago
  Although the problem I've been finding recently with SO vs Apple docs (mainly since switching from developing sdks to apps) is a lot of the higher level stuff seems to get changed more frequently, so a lot of SO answers are out of date. Edit: Somehow this reply ended up with a different parent than I intended...
cclogg 13y ago
I find the opposite with iOS/Apple programming. Often I'll be looking for something on Stack Overflow only to find the true answer lurking somewhere in one of Apple's guides or example apps lol. But if there's a Stack Overflow answer, it's often exactly what I was looking for, and that can't be undervalued!
- droidist2 13y ago
  True, iOS docs are really good compared to Android docs.
baddox 13y ago
> Much of the money saved has gone to vendors. That's not a contradiction to the claim that wealth has been created. Of course it has to go somewhere.
- GalacticDomin8r 13y ago
  > That's not a contradiction to the claim that wealth has been created. There was no claim wealth was created.
  - baddox 13y ago
    There certainly was. "SO has probably added billions of dollars of value to the world in increased programmer productivity." https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/380018564792455168 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/380018564792455168
john2x 13y ago
Google did this as well. It's extremely annoying. They're basically telling users to "Fuck off, we don't have time for you. Go ask your questions somewhere else."
- rrich 13y ago
  When I first started doing Android development in late 2009 the API documentation quickly brought back memories of MSDN in the late 90's.
  - Shog9 13y ago
    Which is where resources like Stack Overflow really shine. I had someone add a link to MSDN to an answer I posted on SO a few years back. That topic didn't exist when I wrote the answer - and the subsystem being documented was already fairly old when I wrote about it. Waiting around for months or years for vendors to get their documentation up to snuff is rarely an option; how many people have ended up reinventing the wheel, badly, because the only indication that it already existed was tucked into a bit of test code collecting dust somewhere? Every time Apple releases a new version of iOS, I see questions regarding the new APIs being asked and answered on SO... Usually before the NDA is even lifted. "RTFM" is useless if the manual is incomplete or inaccessible until long after the fact.
- chavesn 13y ago
  Remember to take into account that doing something similar to SO but scoped more narrowly could actually hurt the help/answer community through fragmentation more than help it.
fat0wl 13y ago
dead on with the cost of wasted time through gamification. And many questions on SO can be answered with ~10 mins of extra thought. It's a good reference though, as someone mentioned. Makes a manual searchable, basically, with a bit of layman explanation. I get bitter though because any time I post a question that actually requires thought (can't be answered by checking an API) it ends up getting downvoted because you well... actually have to read a paragraph to understand it, I assume. That site has an uncanny ability to trash anything of value so a lot of the time I spend on it I wish I just spent reading programming theory instead of gleaning random bits of knowledge. I guess its enlightening though to see the level of developers & tech engagement in the different communities. It lets you see how active the community is and what level of quality the devs are, basically. (So... more questions doesn't necessarily mean better community...) & o god lets not even get into the amount of wasted time spent wanting to claw your eyes out when someone (especially mods) say some horribly arrogant thing responding to some imaginary version of your question (i guess they read 2 or 3 words from each sentence?). or they point out some semantic reason why theoretically they're right even though in practice they're wrong and the theory doesn't actually support their argument, it's just agnostic... chills
sklivvz1971 13y ago
> A lot of time has been spent by developers trying to get points. There is a cost to that. Agreed, however one answer will help many developers, which should more than offset the initial effort > The site has enabled software vendors to slack off on their documentation. Documentation has not deteriorated, in my opinion. In fact, a point could be made that it is now much easier for small vendors to have outstanding developer support through stack overflow. A lot of open source project use it as the main support line. > It would be interesting to know what the global number for reputation points is. There may be a correlation to money saved. It is probably correlated to the time spent on the site, but the money saved is certainly not related, as users don't gain any reputation by reading answers or simply browsing the site.

seiji 13y ago

I know programmers at microsoft who use SO as an intern. They just post questions about strange windows problems they can't work around. Somebody on SO will respond with a 1,000 word essay with 500 lines of code about it within a day, thus solving their problem with no employee time "wasted" by thinking or researching or paying for anything additional resources.

AznHisoka 13y ago
Ha, that's me. I'll post questions on how to write code, not just problems I can't work around. Then I go off and slack off, and wait until someone answers it. My version of "I'm compiling".
- fat0wl 13y ago
  The microsoft thing is a little ethically strange but yeah i feel you on this.... if these try-hards wanna do your work for you just to get a "+10" may as well give them the privilege of "building their digital resume" while you read about something more interesting. Programmer culture involves too much self-glorification & SO embraces that in the hugest way. If the discussions were more interesting it would probably worth more attention but usually it's just some know-it-all quoting docs they just Googled for so they can lock down the question / points. I'm not sure I'd ever want to hire a SO mod...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

drawkbox 13y ago

When you answer questions and get points though you teach and that is the best training. Many times when I answer questions I find out more details and learn as well. Anytime a question is answered this is training investment for free really. It is also something that helps your programmer brand. With open source and sites like stackoverflow, a single programmer can become a team of programmers/knowledge very quickly. It is part of what has made each programmer better I believe. On the flip it has also made programmers more lazy possibly. Finding an answer and being able to solve and provide an answer to the question are two key pillars to providing solutions. So I'd say question answerers and associated companies are getting more out of it.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
dspillett 13y ago
> Many times when I answer questions I find out more details and learn as well. I've experienced this several times too. In verifying details to make sure I'm not handing out duff information, I've stumbled over a semi-related point in the documentation that triggers a "I wasn't aware of that, I'll have to look into it as it might be very useful" response. Also I sometimes just browse for interesting questions. You occasionally stumble upon something you didn't know that you needed/wanted to know!

taspeotis 13y ago

The site has enabled software vendors to slack off on their documentation ... I'm thinking of msdn as an example The number of questions on SO that can be answered by RTFM is quite remarkable. I think that points to a lot of the documentation being just fine. The last bug of my own I spent any significant of time on was answerable by RTFM [1]. There are plenty of PHP+MySQL questions that appear where the OP is clearly learning about PHP+MySQL and the code looks something like... $result = mysql_query("select username, password from user where username = " . $username) ...shows that they haven't bothered to RTFM [2]. [1] I had made a new thread and was calling ShellExecute on it. It didn't work on some computers because I hadn't initialised COM (presumably they had some shell extensions installed). See the first sentence of "Remarks" http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb762153(v=vs.85).aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb76... [2] Big red box: http://www.php.net/mysql_query http://www.php.net/mysql_query

ritchiea 13y ago
I want to float a different hypothesis: the perception of programming is so hung up on the idea of individual brilliance that most people, especially beginners, don't even realize how much value there is in reading the manual. And we as programmers add to the problem. It's not very sexy to say that there is a lot of useful software out there written and documented by smart people and if you read that documentation, and think through a problem with great analytical detail you should be able to find a clear solution.
- ep103 13y ago
  My experience has been that technet's documentation is so unreliable that I've learned to go to SO first.
  - doorhammer 13y ago
    Yeah, I goto SO (well, SO through google) because with most questions, I get a practical answer to my exact situation in seconds, as well as suggestions as to why or why not different approaches might be warranted. They're not all perfect, but it's usually food for thought.

dragonwriter 13y ago

> If there was no StackOverflow the vendors would have to do better. Documentation quality had been declining for many years before SO -- I think its more accurate to say that if vendors were doing better, there would be no (or less interest in) StackOverflow than the other way around.

jgh 13y ago
Although the problem I've been finding recently with SO vs Apple docs (mainly since switching from developing sdks to apps) is a lot of the higher level stuff seems to get changed more frequently, so a lot of SO answers are out of date. Edit: Somehow this reply ended up with a different parent than I intended...

cclogg 13y ago

I find the opposite with iOS/Apple programming. Often I'll be looking for something on Stack Overflow only to find the true answer lurking somewhere in one of Apple's guides or example apps lol. But if there's a Stack Overflow answer, it's often exactly what I was looking for, and that can't be undervalued!

droidist2 13y ago
True, iOS docs are really good compared to Android docs.

baddox 13y ago

> Much of the money saved has gone to vendors. That's not a contradiction to the claim that wealth has been created. Of course it has to go somewhere.

GalacticDomin8r 13y ago
> That's not a contradiction to the claim that wealth has been created. There was no claim wealth was created.
- baddox 13y ago
  There certainly was. "SO has probably added billions of dollars of value to the world in increased programmer productivity." https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/380018564792455168 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/380018564792455168

john2x 13y ago

Google did this as well. It's extremely annoying. They're basically telling users to "Fuck off, we don't have time for you. Go ask your questions somewhere else."

rrich 13y ago
When I first started doing Android development in late 2009 the API documentation quickly brought back memories of MSDN in the late 90's.
- Shog9 13y ago
  Which is where resources like Stack Overflow really shine. I had someone add a link to MSDN to an answer I posted on SO a few years back. That topic didn't exist when I wrote the answer - and the subsystem being documented was already fairly old when I wrote about it. Waiting around for months or years for vendors to get their documentation up to snuff is rarely an option; how many people have ended up reinventing the wheel, badly, because the only indication that it already existed was tucked into a bit of test code collecting dust somewhere? Every time Apple releases a new version of iOS, I see questions regarding the new APIs being asked and answered on SO... Usually before the NDA is even lifted. "RTFM" is useless if the manual is incomplete or inaccessible until long after the fact.
chavesn 13y ago
Remember to take into account that doing something similar to SO but scoped more narrowly could actually hurt the help/answer community through fragmentation more than help it.

fat0wl 13y ago

dead on with the cost of wasted time through gamification. And many questions on SO can be answered with ~10 mins of extra thought. It's a good reference though, as someone mentioned. Makes a manual searchable, basically, with a bit of layman explanation. I get bitter though because any time I post a question that actually requires thought (can't be answered by checking an API) it ends up getting downvoted because you well... actually have to read a paragraph to understand it, I assume. That site has an uncanny ability to trash anything of value so a lot of the time I spend on it I wish I just spent reading programming theory instead of gleaning random bits of knowledge. I guess its enlightening though to see the level of developers & tech engagement in the different communities. It lets you see how active the community is and what level of quality the devs are, basically. (So... more questions doesn't necessarily mean better community...) & o god lets not even get into the amount of wasted time spent wanting to claw your eyes out when someone (especially mods) say some horribly arrogant thing responding to some imaginary version of your question (i guess they read 2 or 3 words from each sentence?). or they point out some semantic reason why theoretically they're right even though in practice they're wrong and the theory doesn't actually support their argument, it's just agnostic... chills

sklivvz1971 13y ago

> A lot of time has been spent by developers trying to get points. There is a cost to that. Agreed, however one answer will help many developers, which should more than offset the initial effort > The site has enabled software vendors to slack off on their documentation. Documentation has not deteriorated, in my opinion. In fact, a point could be made that it is now much easier for small vendors to have outstanding developer support through stack overflow. A lot of open source project use it as the main support line. > It would be interesting to know what the global number for reputation points is. There may be a correlation to money saved. It is probably correlated to the time spent on the site, but the money saved is certainly not related, as users don't gain any reputation by reading answers or simply browsing the site.