7 ms·

Having a daughter about the same age so it gives me a bit of insight. She doesn't get to watch TV. Her playgroup has no major bias towards pink for girls (actu

by junto 13y ago

Having a daughter about the same age so it gives me a bit of insight. She doesn't get to watch TV. Her playgroup has no major bias towards pink for girls (actually even deliberate in their avoidance of such stereotyping). My wife secretly detests pink and girly stuff and is/was a tomboy at heart. We do not discourage or encourage any particular colour or style. There are no obvious factors in my daughter's life that should bias her towards pink girly toys, yet she is absolutely obsessed with girly pink clothes and toys. I honestly can't fathom it. Pink attraction seems to be built in. Like a moth to a flame. Recently she asked for a pirate ship for her birthday, so it isn't all bad.

maxerickson 13y ago
If she is friends with even just one girl that likes pink, she has someone to copy from (share with, whatever). I would also guess that there are individuals that she prefers as friends in the play group (so a survey might not be very revealing).
- alandarev 13y ago
  The same logic could be applied other way around: "If one of her friends does not wear pink, she now has someone to copy from." Not saying it is likelyhood. And I agree, that majority can influence minority, especially in youngster social circles.
  - maxerickson 13y ago
    Well, in your example it would not be a potential explanation for her preference for pink. But peer influence is probably a likely explanation. For the second, part of what I was getting at was that there doesn't need to be a majority if she only really identifies with a few members. The members that she thinks of as her friends are likely to have much more influence over her than the overall group.
    - alandarev 13y ago
      Yah, totally agreed with you. I might have expressed it wrong. Using term 'majority', I meant the majority of friends around her.
galaktor 13y ago
Similar here. I think a major contributor are other social influences other than myself and wife - most notably friends at kindergarden/school, and teachers there, too. There's much subtle influence that isn't obvious at first, at least wasn't to me. For example, notice how many people (say, neighbours or more importantly, grandparents or other relatives) will often congratulate little girls to being really pretty as the first thing that comes out of their mouthes. Not that they're deliberately trying to influence the girls, but it's sort of "default" boilerplate smalltalk with girls, say how pretty they are and how nice their dress is. Certainly that will affect their perception of themselves, what is pretty, what they want to buy... Edit: just found the (oldish) opinion piece on huffpost [1] that originally got me thinking about just that last point [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-bloom/how-to-talk-to-little-gir_b_882510.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-bloom/how-to-talk-to-litt...
- jaimebuelta 13y ago
  Compliment women (not only girls) "by default" on their looks actually drives me nuts. It's used even in situations where is totally irrelevant (e.g. radio show). It is really engraved n our culture.
  - knowitall 13y ago
    To be fair, being pretty is a good strategy for women. I feel reminded of a recent Sam Altman article where he wrote "sadly, learning Ruby on Rails in <some short amount of time> is still a viable strategy". Likewise, sadly concentrating on being pretty is a viable strategy for women. It's not that they can't do anything else, but they have this option (much more so than men).
    - djKianoosh 13y ago
      good looking/tall men "is a viable strategy" too, right?
      - knowitall 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rmc 13y ago
Peer pressure?
leokun 13y ago
> Recently she asked for a pirate ship for her birthday, so it isn't all bad. Hrm, Jake and the Neverland Pirates fan? My daughter likes izzy and I saw an izzy costume on Halloween. Pirates are getting popular.
tehwalrus 13y ago
My Niece's pink obsession began as soon as she started school - I think it's a mixture of peer pressure and subtle clues (e.g. the grandparent's "aren't you pretty" comment.) It's actually amusing in her in particular - she must wear pink, and mummy must do her hair nicely, but then once that's done she's outside climbing trees and getting muddy. It seems that once she's put on the "girl uniform", she can go be herself again.
- pbhjpbhj 13y ago
  >It's actually amusing in her in particular [...] // The amusement lies, presumably, with your consideration that wearing pink and having coiffed hair are inconsistent with wanting to do outdoorsy stuff. I have nieces too - they're being themselves when climbing trees just as much as when wearing pink tutus IMO. Perhaps they're wearing pink to fit in with their friends at school; perhaps they're climbing trees to fit in with me?
  - tehwalrus 13y ago
    nope, I like her style because she's unconventional, as many children are. Perhaps 'amusing' is the wrong word - you may be right there. Perhaps it's a Britishism where I say one thing and mean another; I think it's cool, and it makes me smile. You may also be right that she picks her activities to fit in, as well as her appearance - but I don't think so, from watching. Her older brother is actually quite timid about using the climbing frame in the garden, and the adults definitely don't use it as we might break it, but she happily climbs all over it, whether or not we're watching or talking about it. She particularly likes falling off high (ish) things - one of her favourite games to play with her dad is where he picks her up, dangles her in the air, and then drops her at an unexpected moment (her brother likes this one too.)
eseehausen 13y ago
Pink as a girl's color and blue as a boy's color is a relatively recent cultural assignation. Maybe she likes it on some genetic level, but your wife obviously doesn't, and the way you interpret it is based on marketing that assigned pink to girls. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-St...
minikites 13y ago
> There are no obvious factors in my daughter's life that should bias her towards pink girly toys, yet she is absolutely obsessed with girly pink clothes and toys. > I honestly can't fathom it. Pink attraction seems to be built in. Like a moth to a flame. Yeah, that doesn't actually make any sense. Pink:blue::girl:boy is 100% artificial and one recent source has it the other way around: > For example, a June 1918 article from the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department said, “The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.” Other sources said blue was flattering for blonds, pink for brunettes; or blue was for blue-eyed babies, pink for brown-eyed babies, according to Paoletti. For centuries prior, both genders were dressed in white. Here's the article I've quoted from: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-St... It sounds like marketing is more pervasive than you may realize.
- LaGrange 13y ago
  I usually also bring up these arguments, but there’s also one more possibility: she actually likes pink. Like, I like pink too, and pretty sure I’m not a girl. The problem isn’t that some girls pick pink, it’s that the pink is chosen for them. Even if 90% of girls preferred pink by default (which, as far as we can tell, they don’t), it would still be an issue if the 10% got it effectively forced upon them. While feminists often talk against false dichotomies and essentialism, the biggest point is that even if the differences were true, the amount of „exceptions” is high enough to care. But, finally, about the „power of marketing” thing: yes, marketing is quite terrifyingly powerful, and I’ve seen enough of it effectiveness of work to think so. That’s why I find people who think that they „ignore advertising” a bit on the ridiculous side. Maybe there’s a few cases where you noticed it and managed to overcome it, but there’s just no way you’re unaffected by it.
  - minikites 13y ago
    That's true and a good point, I'm sure lots of people just enjoy pink. As you say, in most cases it is chosen for them, but even when it's not I would make the small tweak that it's not a "fair" choice. How many boys would like pink if not for its "girly" current association? Girls might end up liking pink even if their parents dress them in white, but everything else they see might tilt their opinion towards pink more than other colors.
barney54 13y ago
Recently we visited some friends who have a 4 year old daughter. She was wearing a "pirate princess" dress. That could bring together the pirate and pink motif your daughter is secretly searching for.
gadders 13y ago
I think it's good if they have a balance. By all means wear pink party dresses and have tea parties with your dolls, but encourage them to climb trees, ride bikes and have rough and tumble time with their Dad [1] I always remember some research about when parents are watching their sons and daughters on a climbing frame. With the boys it was "See if you can reach the top!" and with the girls it was "Be careful!". Don't do that. [1] http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/02/07/the-importance-of-roughhousing-with-your-kids/ http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/02/07/the-importance-of-r...
- davedx 13y ago
  Haha. Our 8 year old boy constantly climbs as high as he can get, then gets into trouble and panics. It drives my gf crazy. I wonder if our daughter will be the same when she's older... if she's anything like her dad, probably :)
aestra 13y ago
Does one presume there is a "pink gene"? Pink is an artificial societal constrict of recent invention.
chongli 13y ago
There are no obvious factors in my daughter's life that should bias her towards pink girly toys, yet she is absolutely obsessed with girly pink clothes and toys. Does she go to school yet?
mogrim 13y ago
My eldest was identical - gender neutral toys when she was small, a yellow-painted bedroom, no particular bias for or against pink (she had some pink clothes, but not all), then... Bam! Pink! She turned 4 or 5 (I forget) and suddenly her life was a pink tinged fantasy of Disney Princesses, Barbie etc. No idea why.
- mixmastamyk 13y ago
  School... they copy from their peer group. Some of the girls have been dressed in pink from head to toe since birth.
im3w1l 13y ago
Would it be all bad if she didn't want a pirate ship?
- junto 13y ago
  Not at all. The pink doesn't bother me either. As long as she is happy that's the main thing. I just find it puzzling.
newnewnew 13y ago
I can't understand the desire to eliminate all female-specific behavior. It seems that every adult feminist wants his little girl to grow up to be a little boy.

by junto 13y ago

maxerickson 13y ago

If she is friends with even just one girl that likes pink, she has someone to copy from (share with, whatever). I would also guess that there are individuals that she prefers as friends in the play group (so a survey might not be very revealing).

alandarev 13y ago
The same logic could be applied other way around: "If one of her friends does not wear pink, she now has someone to copy from." Not saying it is likelyhood. And I agree, that majority can influence minority, especially in youngster social circles.
- maxerickson 13y ago
  Well, in your example it would not be a potential explanation for her preference for pink. But peer influence is probably a likely explanation. For the second, part of what I was getting at was that there doesn't need to be a majority if she only really identifies with a few members. The members that she thinks of as her friends are likely to have much more influence over her than the overall group.
  - alandarev 13y ago
    Yah, totally agreed with you. I might have expressed it wrong. Using term 'majority', I meant the majority of friends around her.

galaktor 13y ago

Similar here. I think a major contributor are other social influences other than myself and wife - most notably friends at kindergarden/school, and teachers there, too. There's much subtle influence that isn't obvious at first, at least wasn't to me. For example, notice how many people (say, neighbours or more importantly, grandparents or other relatives) will often congratulate little girls to being really pretty as the first thing that comes out of their mouthes. Not that they're deliberately trying to influence the girls, but it's sort of "default" boilerplate smalltalk with girls, say how pretty they are and how nice their dress is. Certainly that will affect their perception of themselves, what is pretty, what they want to buy... Edit: just found the (oldish) opinion piece on huffpost [1] that originally got me thinking about just that last point [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-bloom/how-to-talk-to-little-gir_b_882510.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-bloom/how-to-talk-to-litt...

jaimebuelta 13y ago
Compliment women (not only girls) "by default" on their looks actually drives me nuts. It's used even in situations where is totally irrelevant (e.g. radio show). It is really engraved n our culture.
- knowitall 13y ago
  To be fair, being pretty is a good strategy for women. I feel reminded of a recent Sam Altman article where he wrote "sadly, learning Ruby on Rails in <some short amount of time> is still a viable strategy". Likewise, sadly concentrating on being pretty is a viable strategy for women. It's not that they can't do anything else, but they have this option (much more so than men).
  - djKianoosh 13y ago
    good looking/tall men "is a viable strategy" too, right?
    - knowitall 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

rmc 13y ago

Peer pressure?

leokun 13y ago

> Recently she asked for a pirate ship for her birthday, so it isn't all bad. Hrm, Jake and the Neverland Pirates fan? My daughter likes izzy and I saw an izzy costume on Halloween. Pirates are getting popular.

tehwalrus 13y ago

My Niece's pink obsession began as soon as she started school - I think it's a mixture of peer pressure and subtle clues (e.g. the grandparent's "aren't you pretty" comment.) It's actually amusing in her in particular - she must wear pink, and mummy must do her hair nicely, but then once that's done she's outside climbing trees and getting muddy. It seems that once she's put on the "girl uniform", she can go be herself again.

pbhjpbhj 13y ago
>It's actually amusing in her in particular [...] // The amusement lies, presumably, with your consideration that wearing pink and having coiffed hair are inconsistent with wanting to do outdoorsy stuff. I have nieces too - they're being themselves when climbing trees just as much as when wearing pink tutus IMO. Perhaps they're wearing pink to fit in with their friends at school; perhaps they're climbing trees to fit in with me?
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  nope, I like her style because she's unconventional, as many children are. Perhaps 'amusing' is the wrong word - you may be right there. Perhaps it's a Britishism where I say one thing and mean another; I think it's cool, and it makes me smile. You may also be right that she picks her activities to fit in, as well as her appearance - but I don't think so, from watching. Her older brother is actually quite timid about using the climbing frame in the garden, and the adults definitely don't use it as we might break it, but she happily climbs all over it, whether or not we're watching or talking about it. She particularly likes falling off high (ish) things - one of her favourite games to play with her dad is where he picks her up, dangles her in the air, and then drops her at an unexpected moment (her brother likes this one too.)

eseehausen 13y ago

Pink as a girl's color and blue as a boy's color is a relatively recent cultural assignation. Maybe she likes it on some genetic level, but your wife obviously doesn't, and the way you interpret it is based on marketing that assigned pink to girls. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-St...

minikites 13y ago

> There are no obvious factors in my daughter's life that should bias her towards pink girly toys, yet she is absolutely obsessed with girly pink clothes and toys. > I honestly can't fathom it. Pink attraction seems to be built in. Like a moth to a flame. Yeah, that doesn't actually make any sense. Pink:blue::girl:boy is 100% artificial and one recent source has it the other way around: > For example, a June 1918 article from the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department said, “The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.” Other sources said blue was flattering for blonds, pink for brunettes; or blue was for blue-eyed babies, pink for brown-eyed babies, according to Paoletti. For centuries prior, both genders were dressed in white. Here's the article I've quoted from: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-St... It sounds like marketing is more pervasive than you may realize.

LaGrange 13y ago
I usually also bring up these arguments, but there’s also one more possibility: she actually likes pink. Like, I like pink too, and pretty sure I’m not a girl. The problem isn’t that some girls pick pink, it’s that the pink is chosen for them. Even if 90% of girls preferred pink by default (which, as far as we can tell, they don’t), it would still be an issue if the 10% got it effectively forced upon them. While feminists often talk against false dichotomies and essentialism, the biggest point is that even if the differences were true, the amount of „exceptions” is high enough to care. But, finally, about the „power of marketing” thing: yes, marketing is quite terrifyingly powerful, and I’ve seen enough of it effectiveness of work to think so. That’s why I find people who think that they „ignore advertising” a bit on the ridiculous side. Maybe there’s a few cases where you noticed it and managed to overcome it, but there’s just no way you’re unaffected by it.
- minikites 13y ago
  That's true and a good point, I'm sure lots of people just enjoy pink. As you say, in most cases it is chosen for them, but even when it's not I would make the small tweak that it's not a "fair" choice. How many boys would like pink if not for its "girly" current association? Girls might end up liking pink even if their parents dress them in white, but everything else they see might tilt their opinion towards pink more than other colors.

barney54 13y ago

Recently we visited some friends who have a 4 year old daughter. She was wearing a "pirate princess" dress. That could bring together the pirate and pink motif your daughter is secretly searching for.

gadders 13y ago

I think it's good if they have a balance. By all means wear pink party dresses and have tea parties with your dolls, but encourage them to climb trees, ride bikes and have rough and tumble time with their Dad [1] I always remember some research about when parents are watching their sons and daughters on a climbing frame. With the boys it was "See if you can reach the top!" and with the girls it was "Be careful!". Don't do that. [1] http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/02/07/the-importance-of-roughhousing-with-your-kids/ http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/02/07/the-importance-of-r...

davedx 13y ago
Haha. Our 8 year old boy constantly climbs as high as he can get, then gets into trouble and panics. It drives my gf crazy. I wonder if our daughter will be the same when she's older... if she's anything like her dad, probably :)

aestra 13y ago

Does one presume there is a "pink gene"? Pink is an artificial societal constrict of recent invention.

chongli 13y ago

There are no obvious factors in my daughter's life that should bias her towards pink girly toys, yet she is absolutely obsessed with girly pink clothes and toys. Does she go to school yet?

mogrim 13y ago

My eldest was identical - gender neutral toys when she was small, a yellow-painted bedroom, no particular bias for or against pink (she had some pink clothes, but not all), then... Bam! Pink! She turned 4 or 5 (I forget) and suddenly her life was a pink tinged fantasy of Disney Princesses, Barbie etc. No idea why.

mixmastamyk 13y ago
School... they copy from their peer group. Some of the girls have been dressed in pink from head to toe since birth.

im3w1l 13y ago

Would it be all bad if she didn't want a pirate ship?

junto 13y ago
Not at all. The pink doesn't bother me either. As long as she is happy that's the main thing. I just find it puzzling.

newnewnew 13y ago

I can't understand the desire to eliminate all female-specific behavior. It seems that every adult feminist wants his little girl to grow up to be a little boy.