4 ms·

the interesting bit about academia, though, is that the "wealth" you accumulate at the top isn't money; it's prestige. To the best of my knowledge, if you ar

by lsc 13y ago

the interesting bit about academia, though, is that the "wealth" you accumulate at the top isn't money; it's prestige. To the best of my knowledge, if you are president of a good uni, you are looking at like half a mil a year. Undoubtedly good money, but hardly "rockstar level" In fact, I'd argue that business management is closer to a "tournament-like profession" - guys on the bottom of the management scale make nothing compared to even a mediocre Engineer, and get no respect. Folks a the top of that scale laugh at your puny half a million a year. (Note, I wouldn't call business management a tournament-like profession... just that the difference between the bottom and the top is larger, I think, than it is in academia.) The other problem here is that okay, you get your PhD in hope of getting a teaching gig. sure, okay, let's accept that. If you join a gang as a foot-solder, you do it to get to the top. Let's accept that, too, for this discussion. The problem is that if you are a failed gangster, your /best case/ is to end up nearly unemployable and living with your mom. If you are a "failed" PhD? which is to say, you get your PhD and you fail to get a teaching gig? There are all sorts of other jobs who would love to have you. Yeah, you might not get paid all that much more than others who stopped with a bachelor degree, but more than half the time, that's more money (even if it's not more stability) than a professor can expect to make. Really, I think teaching higher education is a 'prestige job' more than a 'tournament job'

001sky 13y ago
the "wealth" you accumulate at the top isn't money; it's prestige Exactly. The culture is 'presitige maximization', and it's ruthlessly pursued. TLDR: Man is a political animal
- rockyleal 13y ago
  Pierre Bourdieu called it "cultural capital"
ItendToDisagree 13y ago
Very much so. 'Prestige job' pretty much sums it up. Only a fool gets a PhD so they can 'make the big bucks'. If they were into it just for the money they'd go into finance rather than fiddling around with teaching or research.
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
I did not get my PhD to get a teaching gig and I'm exactly where I want to be: a foot soldier in an industrial research lab (just please don't call Ballmer a druglord). Who the heck wants to be a University President? I'm frankly surprised John Hennessy finds being Stanford president an interesting use of his time, but maybe I'm just naive.
graycat 13y ago
> you get your PhD and you fail to get a teaching gig? There are all sorts of other jobs who would love to have you. You've actually tried that? Even in a STEM field? So you are speaking from first hand knowledge? There is some evidence that outside academics or industrial 'research' really aimed at just publicity or 'luster', a Ph.D. will do somewhat less for a resume than a good felony conviction. Why? Because people without a Ph.D., that is, nearly everyone else, just does not want a Ph.D. around. The people without a Ph.D. commonly make lots of excuses, e.g., a Ph.D. is too bright to be successful in business, cares only about far out pure theory, hates anything practical, is no good at anything practical, always wants to go for big risk, low payoff blue sky stuff, just want to publish papers and make it back into academics, won't work on our practical problems, won't be happy here, etc. There is also the "failed" term; who wants to hire a 'failure'? In an organization, a lone Ph.D. is in a very poor position, basically feared and/or hated by everyone else. Not good.
- lsc 13y ago
  >You've actually tried that? Even in a STEM field? So you are speaking from first hand knowledge? Me? no, have you? I don't have a degree at all. I've worked with a few PhDs, though, and I have several family members in the 'failed academic' class who still putter about teaching a class here or there but mostly work in industry. I don't think they could be classified as failures by any reasonable measure, well, except for the failure to make tenure. I mean, if you measure success by job stability, then yeah, academics are super rich, and working in industry is a failure... but that's not how I see things. More to the point, if it was really that big of a deal? you could just leave it off your resume. It's certainly better than a felony in that regard.
  - graycat 13y ago
    > have you? Yes. Been there. Done that. Have the T-shirt. > More to the point, if it was really that big of a deal? you could just leave it off your resume. It's certainly better than a felony in that regard. A time gap on a resume is about as bad as a felony conviction, really, for looking for a job, worse. A period as a prof, in a slot that would require a Ph.D., does say "I've got a Ph.D.". If leave off the prof slot, then that is another gap on the resume. Such gaps are resume fraud and into the circular file, that is, as bad as a felony conviction. Actually, a felony conviction is likely easier to hide during a job application than a Ph.D. No, I don't have a felony conviction. Indeed have never been arrested or convicted of anything except minor traffic violations. What I said is true: A Ph.D. in a STEM field (maybe no one would resent a Ph.D. in art history) outside of academics or some industrial research lab concentrating on publicity or luster is a job killer. At one point, with a Ph.D., I sent 1000 resume copies and got back only silence or laughs. Earlier in my career, before my Ph.D., once I sent a few resumes and in two weeks went on 7 interviews and got 5 offers. Yes, one of my dissertation advisors is President of one of Stanford, MIT, CMU, Cal-Tech, or Georgia Tech; no help. The Chair of my oral exam is a Member, US National Academy of Engineering. No help. Math SAT 768. GRE Math 800. No help. One reason I'm an entrepreneur is that due to my Ph.D., in engineering from some applied math from a famous, world class research university, I'm unemployable at anything better than stocking shelves at Wal-Mart. Literally. No joke. Period. 'Data mining?' 'Big data'. 'Machine learning'? I have some of the very best background in such topics. Still, just unemployable. Period. Computing? One of the best backgrounds, long at IBM Research where I won an award for my software, algorithm, and architecture contribution to IBM's leading artificial intelligence language. Published in computer science, mathematical statistics, and artificial intelligence. Long background in practical software. Right: Not in C++, Ruby, or Python. So, unemployable. So I'm doing a startup. There my Ph.D. is crucial -- the core of the work is some secret sauce I did from some original research I did that very much needed my Ph.D. Net, it's much easier for me to be the CEO of my own company, and likely get a few million in venture funding, and be wealthy if the company does much of anything, than just to get a job that will let me buy a house. Literally. In case my business is successful, mayhe Ph.D. will have paid off, but not for a job. "Paid off" needs some grains of salt since the delays cost me house, wife, family, etc. Right: Thanksgiving was eating alone. No, I won't be sending any children to college, much less a Ph.D. Actually early in my career a Ph.D. seemed like it would help for non-academic jobs, but that was a boom time around DC with work heavily for the US DoD. Once the Cold War was over, that work went away. A good Ph.D. in a STEM field sets one apart in a way that means that they might be able to get a job stocking shelves at Wal-Mart. Sorry 'bout that.
jccalhoun 13y ago
"If you are a "failed" PhD? which is to say, you get your PhD and you fail to get a teaching gig? There are all sorts of other jobs who would love to have you." That might be true for some fields but not all. I am looking for a teaching gig with my phd and coming up with nothing. At this point I would love to find one of these other jobs that would love to hire me.
- lsc 13y ago
  >That might be true for some fields but not all. I am looking for a teaching gig with my phd and coming up with nothing. At this point I would love to find one of these other jobs that would love to hire me. what is your PhD in? I thought that all physics academics eventually ended up programming. I mean, i guess if you are an English major or an art major, that would seem a bit like plumbing, but eh, it pays the bills, and it's something that most smart people can figure out how to do. Amusingly, from what I've seen, fresh physics majors have more programming experience than fresh computer science majors. And way more linux/large scale systems experience. Most of them even know how to use basic tools like ssh; something you can't say of many CS grads. I've really got no real experience outside of the computer industry, so for all I know, everything everyone says about a PhD being a huge black mark is true in other industries, but it sure seems pretty unlikely. Seems like you could do an experiment, much like the 'Mr. Kim'[1] guy did about his name and gender; leave the PhD off your resume and see what happens. [1]http://whatwouldkingleonidasdo.tumblr.com/post/54989171152/how-i-discovered-gender-discrimination http://whatwouldkingleonidasdo.tumblr.com/post/54989171152/h...
  - jccalhoun 13y ago
    I'm in the humanities. I could learn programming but I took the comment to mean that having a phd in a field would help getting a job. I don't think my phd would help to get a programming job, would it?
    - lsc 13y ago
      no, but having the sort of background that allows you to get a PhD probably would. I think this is the crux of my point. Generally speaking? if you have a PhD you are pretty bright, and come from an upper-middle class family, and have a certain level of togetherness and work ethic. You are gonna do okay.
tensor 13y ago
Speaking personally, I went into academia to do research above all else. I didn't want to teach. Money and prestige* were not major goals. And I certainly didn't want to be a president of a university. Nobody cares about that. * Most researchers do dream of making great discoveries, or proving world changing theorems. In this sense I guess I too want prestige. But it has to be because of actual achievement, not just perceived achieved. E.g. fame for the sake of fame.
- lsc 13y ago
  yeah. that's the part of academia I wanted to get into, when I was looking at that, too. I think that's the most visible reason to go into academia. But unless you make the jump back into business, there's not much money there. Your average research professor may have more stability than your average Engineer, but doesn't get much more in terms of money than an Engineer with a BS or less.
aheilbut 13y ago
Teaching is important, but in science, very few people do a PhD with the primary intention to teach. It's about the research, yo, and prestige that is mostly somewhere between your head and the literature.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  Why don't they go to research institutes? Aren't there institutions specifically devoted to research? Like CERN?
  - yodsanklai 13y ago
    Some do, but in most fields there are many more jobs in universities than in research institutes. Also, they have usually more academic freedom in universities. In good universities, you also have access to potential PhD students and so on.. And of course, many enjoy teaching.
gaius 13y ago
I don't know how it is in the US but in the UK the chancellor of London Met, a third tier at best university, pocketed millions, before he was forced out in disgrace. I suppose there was little prestige to be had there tho'.

by lsc 13y ago

001sky 13y ago

the "wealth" you accumulate at the top isn't money; it's prestige Exactly. The culture is 'presitige maximization', and it's ruthlessly pursued. TLDR: Man is a political animal

rockyleal 13y ago
Pierre Bourdieu called it "cultural capital"

ItendToDisagree 13y ago

Very much so. 'Prestige job' pretty much sums it up. Only a fool gets a PhD so they can 'make the big bucks'. If they were into it just for the money they'd go into finance rather than fiddling around with teaching or research.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

I did not get my PhD to get a teaching gig and I'm exactly where I want to be: a foot soldier in an industrial research lab (just please don't call Ballmer a druglord). Who the heck wants to be a University President? I'm frankly surprised John Hennessy finds being Stanford president an interesting use of his time, but maybe I'm just naive.

graycat 13y ago

> you get your PhD and you fail to get a teaching gig? There are all sorts of other jobs who would love to have you. You've actually tried that? Even in a STEM field? So you are speaking from first hand knowledge? There is some evidence that outside academics or industrial 'research' really aimed at just publicity or 'luster', a Ph.D. will do somewhat less for a resume than a good felony conviction. Why? Because people without a Ph.D., that is, nearly everyone else, just does not want a Ph.D. around. The people without a Ph.D. commonly make lots of excuses, e.g., a Ph.D. is too bright to be successful in business, cares only about far out pure theory, hates anything practical, is no good at anything practical, always wants to go for big risk, low payoff blue sky stuff, just want to publish papers and make it back into academics, won't work on our practical problems, won't be happy here, etc. There is also the "failed" term; who wants to hire a 'failure'? In an organization, a lone Ph.D. is in a very poor position, basically feared and/or hated by everyone else. Not good.

lsc 13y ago
>You've actually tried that? Even in a STEM field? So you are speaking from first hand knowledge? Me? no, have you? I don't have a degree at all. I've worked with a few PhDs, though, and I have several family members in the 'failed academic' class who still putter about teaching a class here or there but mostly work in industry. I don't think they could be classified as failures by any reasonable measure, well, except for the failure to make tenure. I mean, if you measure success by job stability, then yeah, academics are super rich, and working in industry is a failure... but that's not how I see things. More to the point, if it was really that big of a deal? you could just leave it off your resume. It's certainly better than a felony in that regard.
- graycat 13y ago
  > have you? Yes. Been there. Done that. Have the T-shirt. > More to the point, if it was really that big of a deal? you could just leave it off your resume. It's certainly better than a felony in that regard. A time gap on a resume is about as bad as a felony conviction, really, for looking for a job, worse. A period as a prof, in a slot that would require a Ph.D., does say "I've got a Ph.D.". If leave off the prof slot, then that is another gap on the resume. Such gaps are resume fraud and into the circular file, that is, as bad as a felony conviction. Actually, a felony conviction is likely easier to hide during a job application than a Ph.D. No, I don't have a felony conviction. Indeed have never been arrested or convicted of anything except minor traffic violations. What I said is true: A Ph.D. in a STEM field (maybe no one would resent a Ph.D. in art history) outside of academics or some industrial research lab concentrating on publicity or luster is a job killer. At one point, with a Ph.D., I sent 1000 resume copies and got back only silence or laughs. Earlier in my career, before my Ph.D., once I sent a few resumes and in two weeks went on 7 interviews and got 5 offers. Yes, one of my dissertation advisors is President of one of Stanford, MIT, CMU, Cal-Tech, or Georgia Tech; no help. The Chair of my oral exam is a Member, US National Academy of Engineering. No help. Math SAT 768. GRE Math 800. No help. One reason I'm an entrepreneur is that due to my Ph.D., in engineering from some applied math from a famous, world class research university, I'm unemployable at anything better than stocking shelves at Wal-Mart. Literally. No joke. Period. 'Data mining?' 'Big data'. 'Machine learning'? I have some of the very best background in such topics. Still, just unemployable. Period. Computing? One of the best backgrounds, long at IBM Research where I won an award for my software, algorithm, and architecture contribution to IBM's leading artificial intelligence language. Published in computer science, mathematical statistics, and artificial intelligence. Long background in practical software. Right: Not in C++, Ruby, or Python. So, unemployable. So I'm doing a startup. There my Ph.D. is crucial -- the core of the work is some secret sauce I did from some original research I did that very much needed my Ph.D. Net, it's much easier for me to be the CEO of my own company, and likely get a few million in venture funding, and be wealthy if the company does much of anything, than just to get a job that will let me buy a house. Literally. In case my business is successful, mayhe Ph.D. will have paid off, but not for a job. "Paid off" needs some grains of salt since the delays cost me house, wife, family, etc. Right: Thanksgiving was eating alone. No, I won't be sending any children to college, much less a Ph.D. Actually early in my career a Ph.D. seemed like it would help for non-academic jobs, but that was a boom time around DC with work heavily for the US DoD. Once the Cold War was over, that work went away. A good Ph.D. in a STEM field sets one apart in a way that means that they might be able to get a job stocking shelves at Wal-Mart. Sorry 'bout that.

jccalhoun 13y ago

"If you are a "failed" PhD? which is to say, you get your PhD and you fail to get a teaching gig? There are all sorts of other jobs who would love to have you." That might be true for some fields but not all. I am looking for a teaching gig with my phd and coming up with nothing. At this point I would love to find one of these other jobs that would love to hire me.

lsc 13y ago
>That might be true for some fields but not all. I am looking for a teaching gig with my phd and coming up with nothing. At this point I would love to find one of these other jobs that would love to hire me. what is your PhD in? I thought that all physics academics eventually ended up programming. I mean, i guess if you are an English major or an art major, that would seem a bit like plumbing, but eh, it pays the bills, and it's something that most smart people can figure out how to do. Amusingly, from what I've seen, fresh physics majors have more programming experience than fresh computer science majors. And way more linux/large scale systems experience. Most of them even know how to use basic tools like ssh; something you can't say of many CS grads. I've really got no real experience outside of the computer industry, so for all I know, everything everyone says about a PhD being a huge black mark is true in other industries, but it sure seems pretty unlikely. Seems like you could do an experiment, much like the 'Mr. Kim'[1] guy did about his name and gender; leave the PhD off your resume and see what happens. [1]http://whatwouldkingleonidasdo.tumblr.com/post/54989171152/how-i-discovered-gender-discrimination http://whatwouldkingleonidasdo.tumblr.com/post/54989171152/h...
- jccalhoun 13y ago
  I'm in the humanities. I could learn programming but I took the comment to mean that having a phd in a field would help getting a job. I don't think my phd would help to get a programming job, would it?
  - lsc 13y ago
    no, but having the sort of background that allows you to get a PhD probably would. I think this is the crux of my point. Generally speaking? if you have a PhD you are pretty bright, and come from an upper-middle class family, and have a certain level of togetherness and work ethic. You are gonna do okay.

tensor 13y ago

Speaking personally, I went into academia to do research above all else. I didn't want to teach. Money and prestige* were not major goals. And I certainly didn't want to be a president of a university. Nobody cares about that. * Most researchers do dream of making great discoveries, or proving world changing theorems. In this sense I guess I too want prestige. But it has to be because of actual achievement, not just perceived achieved. E.g. fame for the sake of fame.

lsc 13y ago
yeah. that's the part of academia I wanted to get into, when I was looking at that, too. I think that's the most visible reason to go into academia. But unless you make the jump back into business, there's not much money there. Your average research professor may have more stability than your average Engineer, but doesn't get much more in terms of money than an Engineer with a BS or less.

aheilbut 13y ago

Teaching is important, but in science, very few people do a PhD with the primary intention to teach. It's about the research, yo, and prestige that is mostly somewhere between your head and the literature.

guard-of-terra 13y ago
Why don't they go to research institutes? Aren't there institutions specifically devoted to research? Like CERN?
- yodsanklai 13y ago
  Some do, but in most fields there are many more jobs in universities than in research institutes. Also, they have usually more academic freedom in universities. In good universities, you also have access to potential PhD students and so on.. And of course, many enjoy teaching.

gaius 13y ago

I don't know how it is in the US but in the UK the chancellor of London Met, a third tier at best university, pocketed millions, before he was forced out in disgrace. I suppose there was little prestige to be had there tho'.