4 ms·

Libuv developer chided for making docs gender neutral

32 points by zaph0d 13y ago

geedew 13y ago
I don't usually a comment about the things I know little; however this seems harmless enough. It's apparent to me there is a back story here and the guided reasons were not to demean women, but that's certainly how I feel after rereading the comment in this commit. It would be wise to not treat things like this lightly in public forums, no matter what the back story is.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Ettolrahc 13y ago
Some suggestions it was fraudulent over on @alex_gaynor's twitter, but unsure if something like this can be faked.
static_typed 13y ago
1. However well intentioned, this sort of pedantry (the change from 'him' to 'them') just alienates efforts to make things more inclusive, rather than actually helping . 2. Reverting the change appears to be fairly petty. By all means talk to the author of the commit about it, but commit tennis just makes the project look a little immature. 3. Is libuv really now at the point where it is 100% kitchen-sink-included-feature complete, mathematically and empirically tested bug proof, and with code so clean it brings a tear to a developer's eye? If not, then why are you all wasting time on such petty commits, and not on actually, you know, improving the code base. My boss always puts herself in frame as the 'user' in her comments, documents and emails, so all examples are framed with 'her' in mind. Does anyone mind? Does anyone start making changes to 'them'? No, not really. I guess there are more important things to do.
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  > rather than actually helping Nope: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/27784423?uid=2460338175&uid=2460337855&uid=2&uid=4&uid=83&uid=63&sid=21103021094217 http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/27784423?uid=246033817...
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    So if I'm reading this right, using 'he' as a generic is actually worse than having explicitly male examples, in terms of comprehension? Did they specifically test using 'they'? I would imagine that it would distract some people who expect plural, but I have no guess as to how large this factor would be in comparison.
sjtgraham 13y ago
Title should be: "Libuv developer chided for allegedly merging commit without proper sign off" Post should be: buried.
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  Especially when "making docs gender neutral" is a terribly misleading way to describe changing from the traditional gender neutral pronoun to a somewhat better one.
- zaph0d 13y ago
  There was a sign-off apparently: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/commit/804d40ee14dc0f82c482dcc8d1c41c14333fcb48#commitcomment-4736897 https://github.com/joyent/libuv/commit/804d40ee14dc0f82c482d...
  - sjtgraham 13y ago
    Hence "allegedly".
vezzy-fnord 13y ago
[*] arrogantly dismissed gender neutrality as "trivial" (#1015) [*] actively taken steps to revert positive gender neutrality change [*] chided @isaacs unnecessarily [] removed women entirely from the industry Ostensibly, reverting a pointless commit is one step away from removing women entirely from the tech industry. Most shocking to me is how some people in the previous commit discussion genuinely believe that modifying two pronouns in code comments will somehow be a crucial step towards gender equality.
- V-2 13y ago
  Because it's magical thinking at its best... Personally I would have used "them" from the beginning (or the equivalent in my native language), but correcting someone like this is condescending and it would irritate me too. This atmosphere of hysteria - ooh, ooh, he's just about to remove women from the industry - reminds me of religious fundamentalists who also want to shove their worldview down everybody's throat and never fail to inform you how the apocalypse is approaching, how we're doomed to eternity because someone wore a mini-skirt etc. etc.
  - hakunin 13y ago
    Except there is a difference in that the really awful scenario is already here, and little by little, with big and small efforts, some communities are trying to climb out of it. How is spreading fear of upcoming doom in any way similar to trying to fix the existing, real problem?
glomph 13y ago
This is basically already being discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6821677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6821677 Reverting is pretty weird.

32 points by zaph0d 13y ago

I don't usually a comment about the things I know little; however this seems harmless enough. It's apparent to me there is a back story here and the guided reasons were not to demean women, but that's certainly how I feel after rereading the comment in this commit. It would be wise to not treat things like this lightly in public forums, no matter what the back story is.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Ettolrahc 13y ago

Some suggestions it was fraudulent over on @alex_gaynor's twitter, but unsure if something like this can be faked.

static_typed 13y ago

1. However well intentioned, this sort of pedantry (the change from 'him' to 'them') just alienates efforts to make things more inclusive, rather than actually helping . 2. Reverting the change appears to be fairly petty. By all means talk to the author of the commit about it, but commit tennis just makes the project look a little immature. 3. Is libuv really now at the point where it is 100% kitchen-sink-included-feature complete, mathematically and empirically tested bug proof, and with code so clean it brings a tear to a developer's eye? If not, then why are you all wasting time on such petty commits, and not on actually, you know, improving the code base. My boss always puts herself in frame as the 'user' in her comments, documents and emails, so all examples are framed with 'her' in mind. Does anyone mind? Does anyone start making changes to 'them'? No, not really. I guess there are more important things to do.

steveklabnik 13y ago
> rather than actually helping Nope: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/27784423?uid=2460338175&uid=2460337855&uid=2&uid=4&uid=83&uid=63&sid=21103021094217 http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/27784423?uid=246033817...
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  So if I'm reading this right, using 'he' as a generic is actually worse than having explicitly male examples, in terms of comprehension? Did they specifically test using 'they'? I would imagine that it would distract some people who expect plural, but I have no guess as to how large this factor would be in comparison.

sjtgraham 13y ago

Title should be: "Libuv developer chided for allegedly merging commit without proper sign off" Post should be: buried.

Dylan16807 13y ago
Especially when "making docs gender neutral" is a terribly misleading way to describe changing from the traditional gender neutral pronoun to a somewhat better one.
zaph0d 13y ago
There was a sign-off apparently: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/commit/804d40ee14dc0f82c482dcc8d1c41c14333fcb48#commitcomment-4736897 https://github.com/joyent/libuv/commit/804d40ee14dc0f82c482d...
- sjtgraham 13y ago
  Hence "allegedly".

vezzy-fnord 13y ago

[*] arrogantly dismissed gender neutrality as "trivial" (#1015) [*] actively taken steps to revert positive gender neutrality change [*] chided @isaacs unnecessarily [] removed women entirely from the industry Ostensibly, reverting a pointless commit is one step away from removing women entirely from the tech industry. Most shocking to me is how some people in the previous commit discussion genuinely believe that modifying two pronouns in code comments will somehow be a crucial step towards gender equality.

V-2 13y ago
Because it's magical thinking at its best... Personally I would have used "them" from the beginning (or the equivalent in my native language), but correcting someone like this is condescending and it would irritate me too. This atmosphere of hysteria - ooh, ooh, he's just about to remove women from the industry - reminds me of religious fundamentalists who also want to shove their worldview down everybody's throat and never fail to inform you how the apocalypse is approaching, how we're doomed to eternity because someone wore a mini-skirt etc. etc.
- hakunin 13y ago
  Except there is a difference in that the really awful scenario is already here, and little by little, with big and small efforts, some communities are trying to climb out of it. How is spreading fear of upcoming doom in any way similar to trying to fix the existing, real problem?

glomph 13y ago

This is basically already being discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6821677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6821677 Reverting is pretty weird.