5 ms·

>The reason why I bring that up is because I noticed the same pattern here; this job ad is screening for desperate people lacking a spine. I can't imagine any d

by lsc 13y ago

>The reason why I bring that up is because I noticed the same pattern here; this job ad is screening for desperate people lacking a spine. I can't imagine any decent developer with a good job applying for this. Only someone desperately looking for work and having relatively low skills would willingly take this job, assuming he's not an idiot. Hey, 17 year old kids, and people who have been out of work for years need jobs too, you know. (actual skill correlates... much less than it ought with employment desperation, in my opinion.) And it looks to me (and apparently, to you) like the penny-arcade folks are being pretty clear about what they want. And that's fine. Some people (usually very inexperienced people) really like the "hero ninja rockstar" rhetoric, and that's fine. I think many intern level folks respond better to thinking of themselves as rockstar ninjas than as interns. And as we're all clear on what that actually means, hey, if it makes them feel good, who am I to complain? The other thing you need to understand is that most of the rhetoric about 'heroic work schedules' is empty. My experience has been that the people I know who actually work the most, I mean, once you take out all the time on hacker news and facebook? they don't talk about how much they work. In fact, they usually worry that they aren't working enough. When I hear people crow about a ridiculous work schedule? I hear "I put in 45 hours a week at the office, but half that time is on facebook or chatting with co-workers" People who actually work a lot are constantly concerned that they aren't working enough.

joe_the_user 13y ago
Hey, 17 year old kids, and people who have been out of work for years need jobs too, you know. Yeah, they and similarly desperate people may indeed fall pray to this kind of thing. See below. And it looks to me (and apparently, to you) like the penny-arcade folks are being pretty clear about what they want. In this economy, ads saying "we're looking for someone to suck dry till we leave their bleached bones on the beach somewhere" can pull people in because ... desperation. See, your above. But I don't care, such vampires need to be called on their antics regardless of this free choice.
- lsc 13y ago
  >In this economy, ads saying "we're looking for someone to suck dry till we leave their bleached bones on the beach somewhere" can pull people in because ... desperation. See, your above. Yeah... but like I said, I don't believe people who claim heroic hours. I don't believe companies who say that '50-60 hours' is normal. they mean that /claiming/ 50 hours a week is normal. Yes, some people do actually work brutal hours, but they don't brag about it. They worry that they aren't working enough. Some employers really pressure people to work brutal hours, but they brag about that even less. In fact, the places that claim heroic hours more often have beer Fridays and unfiltered internet access (and a culture that makes it okay to hang out on facebook and HN on work hours.) Generally, they also let you come in when you want, meaning that you can show up before your boss (It doesn't matter how much before your boss) /or/ show up after your boss (it doesn't matter how much after your boss) and plausibly claim crazy hours. There is /extreme/ resistance to any sort of actual time tracking for this reason. It's like the coaches who say "give 110%" yeah, they are irritating, and the rest of us look down on them, but there is a group of people who eat that shit up. I'm sorry, but even if you are spending 45 or even 50 hours a week in the office (and the number of folks who go beyond that, ninja rockstar or not, is vanishingly small[1]) if half of that time is spent socializing or screwing off on the internet? it's not really that brutal. It's basically the same thing as being at home, except you have to wear pants. Edit: dug up the source for the article: [1]https://web.archive.org/web/20130309155432/http://bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/06/art3full.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20130309155432/http://bls.gov/op...
  - joe_the_user 13y ago
    Uh, the question of exploitation isn't really about how many hours about productive but about how many hours are taken from you.
    - lsc 13y ago
      The study I cited measured actual hours in the office, not productive hours, so I stand by my point that most claims of hanging out in the office significantly more than 45 hours a week are bullshit.
    - 13y ago
- mcv 13y ago
  Are people really that desperate? I don't know how the job market is in the US, but yesterday I saw an article explaining that the US was still the best place for programmers. In Netherland, I don't know any programmer who is unemployed. The job market is very good here. There's no reason to accept a crappy, rotten, underpaid job, unless you suck. So what is it, US? Is it great over there, or does it suck so badly that PA might actually find someone?
  - vellum 13y ago
    According to this study, there's an 8.7% unemployment rate for recent CS grads. For experienced CS grads, it's 4.7%. http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/HardTimes.2013.2.pdf http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/HardTimes....
coldtea 13y ago
>Hey, 17 year old kids, and people who have been out of work for years need jobs too, you know. Yes, so let's take advantage of them... And if the market comes to that point that we can expect them to work for food, let's do that too... (while we're making tons of money from our business). >And it looks to me (and apparently, to you) like the penny-arcade folks are being pretty clear about what they want. Transparency is not a virtue in itself. Charles Manson was pretty clear about what he wanted too.
- lsc 13y ago
  read the rest of my comment, please.

by lsc 13y ago

joe_the_user 13y ago

Hey, 17 year old kids, and people who have been out of work for years need jobs too, you know. Yeah, they and similarly desperate people may indeed fall pray to this kind of thing. See below. And it looks to me (and apparently, to you) like the penny-arcade folks are being pretty clear about what they want. In this economy, ads saying "we're looking for someone to suck dry till we leave their bleached bones on the beach somewhere" can pull people in because ... desperation. See, your above. But I don't care, such vampires need to be called on their antics regardless of this free choice.

lsc 13y ago
>In this economy, ads saying "we're looking for someone to suck dry till we leave their bleached bones on the beach somewhere" can pull people in because ... desperation. See, your above. Yeah... but like I said, I don't believe people who claim heroic hours. I don't believe companies who say that '50-60 hours' is normal. they mean that /claiming/ 50 hours a week is normal. Yes, some people do actually work brutal hours, but they don't brag about it. They worry that they aren't working enough. Some employers really pressure people to work brutal hours, but they brag about that even less. In fact, the places that claim heroic hours more often have beer Fridays and unfiltered internet access (and a culture that makes it okay to hang out on facebook and HN on work hours.) Generally, they also let you come in when you want, meaning that you can show up before your boss (It doesn't matter how much before your boss) /or/ show up after your boss (it doesn't matter how much after your boss) and plausibly claim crazy hours. There is /extreme/ resistance to any sort of actual time tracking for this reason. It's like the coaches who say "give 110%" yeah, they are irritating, and the rest of us look down on them, but there is a group of people who eat that shit up. I'm sorry, but even if you are spending 45 or even 50 hours a week in the office (and the number of folks who go beyond that, ninja rockstar or not, is vanishingly small[1]) if half of that time is spent socializing or screwing off on the internet? it's not really that brutal. It's basically the same thing as being at home, except you have to wear pants. Edit: dug up the source for the article: [1]https://web.archive.org/web/20130309155432/http://bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/06/art3full.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20130309155432/http://bls.gov/op...
- joe_the_user 13y ago
  Uh, the question of exploitation isn't really about how many hours about productive but about how many hours are taken from you.
  - lsc 13y ago
    The study I cited measured actual hours in the office, not productive hours, so I stand by my point that most claims of hanging out in the office significantly more than 45 hours a week are bullshit.
  - 13y ago
mcv 13y ago
Are people really that desperate? I don't know how the job market is in the US, but yesterday I saw an article explaining that the US was still the best place for programmers. In Netherland, I don't know any programmer who is unemployed. The job market is very good here. There's no reason to accept a crappy, rotten, underpaid job, unless you suck. So what is it, US? Is it great over there, or does it suck so badly that PA might actually find someone?
- vellum 13y ago
  According to this study, there's an 8.7% unemployment rate for recent CS grads. For experienced CS grads, it's 4.7%. http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/HardTimes.2013.2.pdf http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/HardTimes....

coldtea 13y ago

>Hey, 17 year old kids, and people who have been out of work for years need jobs too, you know. Yes, so let's take advantage of them... And if the market comes to that point that we can expect them to work for food, let's do that too... (while we're making tons of money from our business). >And it looks to me (and apparently, to you) like the penny-arcade folks are being pretty clear about what they want. Transparency is not a virtue in itself. Charles Manson was pretty clear about what he wanted too.

lsc 13y ago
read the rest of my comment, please.