15 ms·

There are so many fucking developers out there who are totally unaware of their own value, and will take a salary significantly less than they're worth. This us

There are so many fucking developers out there who are totally unaware of their own value, and will take a salary significantly less than they're worth. This usually comes as a result of nervousness in interviews, lack of confidence, fear of going broke, and/or some other feeling of desperation. As an employer, you want to find these folks. There's usually no downside to having these absurd job postings. Penny Arcade apparently went too far and is getting some bad publicity, but usually there are no repercussions. Can you really blame them for trying to do this - when it works? As developers, you need to educate your fellow developers about how much they're worth, strategize ways to extract maximum value from companies you work for, and instill a sense of confidence in one another. If you've ever gone to engineering school, I know you knew tons of folks who couldn't believe what companies were willing to pay for them. Their misconceptions need to be abolished. If you don't help your fellow developers understand their positions, then they'll end up taking jobs like this one at Penny Arcade for shit pay and it brings down the overall price of employees in general. Company owners don't want you to know this. They benefit from these awesome hires.

SheepSlapper 13y ago
Money is just one form of compensation. PA offers a matching 401(k), my company doesn't. PA offers what seems to be a pretty sweet working environment, my company doesn't. PA might have some interesting/hard problems to solve, I'm stuck making CRUD apps for customers that just don't care. People can complain about the (allegedly, nobody knows what they're paying yet) low salary all they want, but that's only one piece of the puzzle.
- nbuggia 13y ago
  Yes, it is so sweet they expect that you will find it offensive: "- You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment."
  - BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
    If you're familiar with the webcomic or the blog, you'd recognize that this is probably a reference to off-color language and humor that undoubtedly is typical of their work environment. This doesn't actually offend me at all, but the rest of the job posting does.
  - swombat 13y ago
    GrantTree is a pretty cool and relaxed environment. And it's occasionally offensive. That's part of not being a boring and uptight environment.
  - SheepSlapper 13y ago
    Comedians tend to offend once in a while, it's part of the gig. And PA is smack in the middle of the comedy/video game business, sometimes they might trample your delicate sensibilities[1]. As someone who isn't easily offended, that sounds a hundred times better than working in a constant state of fear that you're not being PC enough. But, to each his/her own. At least they're upfront about it, so potential candidates know what they're getting into. Doesn't sound like the environment you want? Don't apply. [1] http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/09/penny-arcade-expo-dickwolves/ http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/09/penny-arcade-expo-dic...
  - fragsworth 13y ago
    They make comics. Lots of comedy is about trying to find a balance between what is offensive and what people are willing to laugh at. If you're creating humorous content, then you by necessity cross the boundary into the offensive (but you don't necessarily publish it!) as part of the creative process. Otherwise you'll never strike the best balance. Consider this Onion post (NSFW) - http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/ http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-... Now try to imagine what their work environment must be like.
  - daemin 13y ago
    I assume what they mean by that is the work environment will resemble what they've put on camera in their PA TV and other series. It will probably be both more mundane and more "offensive" than what is shown on screen, so the goal would be to find someone that can handle the situation.
  - sirmarksalot 13y ago
    I'm okay with that as long as it cuts both ways. For example, I will work for you under the understanding that I will keep giving you shit about the "dickwolves" thing until you finally understand what you did wrong -- and no, you don't have to give your kids' entire college savings away to charity.
    - johnbm 13y ago
      "I am an absolute moral authority. Apologizing and shutting up is the only acceptable response when I am pissed off. Any protestation will be taken as further evidence of your complicity." Or maybe you're just a self-centred special snowflake. http://virtuallyantifeminism.blogspot.ca/2013/09/pax-being-raped-to-sleep-by-dickwolves.html http://virtuallyantifeminism.blogspot.ca/2013/09/pax-being-r...
      - sirmarksalot 13y ago
        "I'm happy with the status quo, so I'm going to write condescending remarks that could equally apply to anyone who has ever felt the need to stand up for somebody else."
- sebkomianos 13y ago
  - We are quite literally looking for a person that can do four jobs: Web Development, Software Development, Sys Admin, and the (dreaded) GENERAL IT for us here that need help configuring a firewall for a dev kit, etc. - [...] and don’t mind having a really bad sense of work-life balance, this is the job for you. - You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment. - It’s rarely we call on it, but if something breaks in the middle of the night, you are expected to be on call to address that issue 24/7. That's four pieces of the puzzle already.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    Some people like working many different roles. What's that thing the startup folks always say about early hires- "You get to wear many different hats"? Some people like creative/potentially offensive environments. I'm guessing they aren't saying "We are all assholes and will treat you like shit", they are saying "We don't worry too much about political correctness" or something along those lines.
    - danenania 13y ago
      And Lebron James likes playing basketball. That doesn't mean he'll do it for $50k per year. Someone who meets the qualifications PA has listed can easily get a six figure salary plus stock and benefits at any number of cool companies with interesting problems to work on, nice offices, and fun cultures. PA won't get good developers to apply with this listing. They'll get people who are desperate for work and willing to misrepresent their experience and ability. Bullshit begets bullshit.
      - SheepSlapper 13y ago
        I'm working a job that pays $100k a year, and I'm miserable. I've never had more fun working a job in my life than when I was working in a PA-esque environment (as far as I can tell, it was a very anti-PC office) making $60k a year. Money isn't everything, and there's something to be said about waking up every morning excited to go to work. Also, how many software developers do you know that'd be doing what we do even if it paid $30k a year? Because I sure as hell would. Lebron might even be ballin' for $50 a year, if he loves it enough. And that's kind of the whole point of the job posting: if you're in it for the money then PA doesn't want ya, and you probably don't want PA.
testing12341234 13y ago
So how does a developer determine their own value? For example: 1.) I do web development every day. I'm not a spectacular designer, but I can put a work flow together and I'm comfortable on both the client side javascript (JavaScript proper, jQuery, Backbone, AngularJs) as well as the server side (Ruby, Node.js, PHP 5.5 (Laravel mostly), C#). 2.) I do development in the form of sysadmin/devops type tasks (bash/powershell/vbscript) 3.) I currently do IT related tasks with regards to servers (not desktops) such as building servers from parts, loading them in to racks, setting up firewalls/routers/networking, etc 4.) I'm not perfect with attention to detail. Things fall through the cracks, but I know when to skip details (because they can be easily rectified if missed) and when not to (because the work really is mission critical, or rectifying the mistake would be particularly painful) 5.) I'm self-educated with minimal college. However, I devour books about algorithms, AI, language references, etc 6.) I have terrible work-life balance. I love my wife dearly, but if there is a problem to be solved, I can't let it go. I often dream about problems that are on my mind. 7.) I work well in teams, but I prefer solo work as I can often get in the "zone" easier when not distracted. I am not socially awkward, but I prefer smaller groups. I won't do sales, and while I can do direct customer service, I find it exhausting and my day is often shot afterwards. 8.) I understand how to deal with, and juggle, multiple "number one" priorities. 9.) I generally don't do on call, but if there is a fire, I'm always available to work on it. 10.) I'm constantly on the lookout for techniques to enhance myself, and the team as a whole. I often do presentations on up and coming software stacks, or training on technologies that I think would be worthwhile to implement. 11.) I live in Portland, Or. Relocating to SV or SF is not an option. Given all of that (and more since it's never binary), how do I go about valuing myself in the market without wasting a ton of time?
- dj_axl 13y ago
  > How do I go about valuing myself in the market without wasting a ton of time? It takes a ton of time, but interview people. Seriously, you would not believe what the applicant pool is like, even after resume filtering and phone screening. After interviewing 20-30 people you may have a very different perspective on which decile of value that you fall into. If you are in the top 10% of developers, then your value is the top 10% as well.
hkmurakami 13y ago
I take the Mark Suster position that engineers are terrible at negotiating, and they're eventually going to find out their market value or their peers' compensation, so just offer them a market, fair salary and equity to begin with, especially if you've found someone who you think will be a great fit.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
JohnBooty 13y ago
As an employer, you want to find these folks. There's usually no downside to having these absurd job postings. There are at least a few big downsides! 1. You lose a lot of accumulated knowledge when you burn your employees out and need to hire new ones every ___ months. 2. When you're understaffed (er, sorry - "running lean") and every week is basically run-around-with-your-hair-on-fire crunch mode time, you accumulate technical debt like crazy. Pretty soon everything's held together with duct tape, because you're dealing with shit flying at you from every angle and there's often no time to do things right. 3. An unreasonable job description like that weeds out nearly all seasoned, savvy developers. (For a high-profile job like PA, maybe they'll attract enough naive young geniuses who would love to work a zillion hours a week for low pay, and that will kinda sorta make up for it)
- integraton 13y ago
  Regarding point 1, there's a widespread view in the Bay Area that it's good to get a "fresh" perspective in companies that are toxic enough to continually burn out employees, which is many companies, probably most. Furthermore, high turnover is very, very common in VC startups, including CEOs.
snowwrestler 13y ago
This is basically a union argument. If all the people who felt this way banded together, they could form a developer or sysadmin union and exert exactly this pressure on employers. And if you think unions aren't for skilled workers, look at how well it works NFL players or entertainment writers.
- kkowalczyk 13y ago
  This is serious mis-interpretation of reality. Do you think that if cricket players formed a union (maybe they already did, I have no idea), they would be paid as much as NFL players? Of course not. NFL players are paid so much because the league can afford to pay them and still stuff their bank accounts. The same goes for TV/Movie writers - good, proven talent is in low supply and there are millions at stake, so it makes sense to pay well to get the best. The 5th box office hit on a given week usually makes a fraction of what the 1st and 2nd does, so it makes sense to optimize for hitting the 1st spot and you do that by getting the best talent and you get the best talent by paying them more than others. We (programmers) don't need the unions to be paid well because there's still more demand for talent than supply of such talent. If it ever happens that we need unions to be well paid, the unions won't help much because you can't pay high salaries if you don't have high revenues. Also, given that software companies are generous with stock options, as part owners of the business, we should be very much against overpaying the employees, even if they are fellow developers.
  - vacri 13y ago
    Cricket players do have players unions. They're not paid as much as NFL stars because there's less money overall in cricket. Pilots' unions in the US are an example of a skilled profession milking the industry. You can't have an airline without pilots, and the union knows exactly how much the airlines make - and pitch their wage demands to just below 'breaking the bank'. The value of IT staff is harder to quantify - a commercial plane needs two pilots (generally). An IT department needs... ?
    - jsmthrowaway 13y ago

SheepSlapper 13y ago

Money is just one form of compensation. PA offers a matching 401(k), my company doesn't. PA offers what seems to be a pretty sweet working environment, my company doesn't. PA might have some interesting/hard problems to solve, I'm stuck making CRUD apps for customers that just don't care. People can complain about the (allegedly, nobody knows what they're paying yet) low salary all they want, but that's only one piece of the puzzle.

nbuggia 13y ago
Yes, it is so sweet they expect that you will find it offensive: "- You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment."
- BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
  If you're familiar with the webcomic or the blog, you'd recognize that this is probably a reference to off-color language and humor that undoubtedly is typical of their work environment. This doesn't actually offend me at all, but the rest of the job posting does.
- swombat 13y ago
  GrantTree is a pretty cool and relaxed environment. And it's occasionally offensive. That's part of not being a boring and uptight environment.
- SheepSlapper 13y ago
  Comedians tend to offend once in a while, it's part of the gig. And PA is smack in the middle of the comedy/video game business, sometimes they might trample your delicate sensibilities[1]. As someone who isn't easily offended, that sounds a hundred times better than working in a constant state of fear that you're not being PC enough. But, to each his/her own. At least they're upfront about it, so potential candidates know what they're getting into. Doesn't sound like the environment you want? Don't apply. [1] http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/09/penny-arcade-expo-dickwolves/ http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/09/penny-arcade-expo-dic...
- fragsworth 13y ago
  They make comics. Lots of comedy is about trying to find a balance between what is offensive and what people are willing to laugh at. If you're creating humorous content, then you by necessity cross the boundary into the offensive (but you don't necessarily publish it!) as part of the creative process. Otherwise you'll never strike the best balance. Consider this Onion post (NSFW) - http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/ http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-... Now try to imagine what their work environment must be like.
- daemin 13y ago
  I assume what they mean by that is the work environment will resemble what they've put on camera in their PA TV and other series. It will probably be both more mundane and more "offensive" than what is shown on screen, so the goal would be to find someone that can handle the situation.
- sirmarksalot 13y ago
  I'm okay with that as long as it cuts both ways. For example, I will work for you under the understanding that I will keep giving you shit about the "dickwolves" thing until you finally understand what you did wrong -- and no, you don't have to give your kids' entire college savings away to charity.
  - johnbm 13y ago
    "I am an absolute moral authority. Apologizing and shutting up is the only acceptable response when I am pissed off. Any protestation will be taken as further evidence of your complicity." Or maybe you're just a self-centred special snowflake. http://virtuallyantifeminism.blogspot.ca/2013/09/pax-being-raped-to-sleep-by-dickwolves.html http://virtuallyantifeminism.blogspot.ca/2013/09/pax-being-r...
    - sirmarksalot 13y ago
      "I'm happy with the status quo, so I'm going to write condescending remarks that could equally apply to anyone who has ever felt the need to stand up for somebody else."
sebkomianos 13y ago
- We are quite literally looking for a person that can do four jobs: Web Development, Software Development, Sys Admin, and the (dreaded) GENERAL IT for us here that need help configuring a firewall for a dev kit, etc. - [...] and don’t mind having a really bad sense of work-life balance, this is the job for you. - You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment. - It’s rarely we call on it, but if something breaks in the middle of the night, you are expected to be on call to address that issue 24/7. That's four pieces of the puzzle already.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Some people like working many different roles. What's that thing the startup folks always say about early hires- "You get to wear many different hats"? Some people like creative/potentially offensive environments. I'm guessing they aren't saying "We are all assholes and will treat you like shit", they are saying "We don't worry too much about political correctness" or something along those lines.
  - danenania 13y ago
    And Lebron James likes playing basketball. That doesn't mean he'll do it for $50k per year. Someone who meets the qualifications PA has listed can easily get a six figure salary plus stock and benefits at any number of cool companies with interesting problems to work on, nice offices, and fun cultures. PA won't get good developers to apply with this listing. They'll get people who are desperate for work and willing to misrepresent their experience and ability. Bullshit begets bullshit.
    - SheepSlapper 13y ago
      I'm working a job that pays $100k a year, and I'm miserable. I've never had more fun working a job in my life than when I was working in a PA-esque environment (as far as I can tell, it was a very anti-PC office) making $60k a year. Money isn't everything, and there's something to be said about waking up every morning excited to go to work. Also, how many software developers do you know that'd be doing what we do even if it paid $30k a year? Because I sure as hell would. Lebron might even be ballin' for $50 a year, if he loves it enough. And that's kind of the whole point of the job posting: if you're in it for the money then PA doesn't want ya, and you probably don't want PA.

testing12341234 13y ago

So how does a developer determine their own value? For example: 1.) I do web development every day. I'm not a spectacular designer, but I can put a work flow together and I'm comfortable on both the client side javascript (JavaScript proper, jQuery, Backbone, AngularJs) as well as the server side (Ruby, Node.js, PHP 5.5 (Laravel mostly), C#). 2.) I do development in the form of sysadmin/devops type tasks (bash/powershell/vbscript) 3.) I currently do IT related tasks with regards to servers (not desktops) such as building servers from parts, loading them in to racks, setting up firewalls/routers/networking, etc 4.) I'm not perfect with attention to detail. Things fall through the cracks, but I know when to skip details (because they can be easily rectified if missed) and when not to (because the work really is mission critical, or rectifying the mistake would be particularly painful) 5.) I'm self-educated with minimal college. However, I devour books about algorithms, AI, language references, etc 6.) I have terrible work-life balance. I love my wife dearly, but if there is a problem to be solved, I can't let it go. I often dream about problems that are on my mind. 7.) I work well in teams, but I prefer solo work as I can often get in the "zone" easier when not distracted. I am not socially awkward, but I prefer smaller groups. I won't do sales, and while I can do direct customer service, I find it exhausting and my day is often shot afterwards. 8.) I understand how to deal with, and juggle, multiple "number one" priorities. 9.) I generally don't do on call, but if there is a fire, I'm always available to work on it. 10.) I'm constantly on the lookout for techniques to enhance myself, and the team as a whole. I often do presentations on up and coming software stacks, or training on technologies that I think would be worthwhile to implement. 11.) I live in Portland, Or. Relocating to SV or SF is not an option. Given all of that (and more since it's never binary), how do I go about valuing myself in the market without wasting a ton of time?

dj_axl 13y ago
> How do I go about valuing myself in the market without wasting a ton of time? It takes a ton of time, but interview people. Seriously, you would not believe what the applicant pool is like, even after resume filtering and phone screening. After interviewing 20-30 people you may have a very different perspective on which decile of value that you fall into. If you are in the top 10% of developers, then your value is the top 10% as well.

hkmurakami 13y ago

I take the Mark Suster position that engineers are terrible at negotiating, and they're eventually going to find out their market value or their peers' compensation, so just offer them a market, fair salary and equity to begin with, especially if you've found someone who you think will be a great fit.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

JohnBooty 13y ago

As an employer, you want to find these folks. There's usually no downside to having these absurd job postings. There are at least a few big downsides! 1. You lose a lot of accumulated knowledge when you burn your employees out and need to hire new ones every ___ months. 2. When you're understaffed (er, sorry - "running lean") and every week is basically run-around-with-your-hair-on-fire crunch mode time, you accumulate technical debt like crazy. Pretty soon everything's held together with duct tape, because you're dealing with shit flying at you from every angle and there's often no time to do things right. 3. An unreasonable job description like that weeds out nearly all seasoned, savvy developers. (For a high-profile job like PA, maybe they'll attract enough naive young geniuses who would love to work a zillion hours a week for low pay, and that will kinda sorta make up for it)

integraton 13y ago
Regarding point 1, there's a widespread view in the Bay Area that it's good to get a "fresh" perspective in companies that are toxic enough to continually burn out employees, which is many companies, probably most. Furthermore, high turnover is very, very common in VC startups, including CEOs.

snowwrestler 13y ago

This is basically a union argument. If all the people who felt this way banded together, they could form a developer or sysadmin union and exert exactly this pressure on employers. And if you think unions aren't for skilled workers, look at how well it works NFL players or entertainment writers.

kkowalczyk 13y ago
This is serious mis-interpretation of reality. Do you think that if cricket players formed a union (maybe they already did, I have no idea), they would be paid as much as NFL players? Of course not. NFL players are paid so much because the league can afford to pay them and still stuff their bank accounts. The same goes for TV/Movie writers - good, proven talent is in low supply and there are millions at stake, so it makes sense to pay well to get the best. The 5th box office hit on a given week usually makes a fraction of what the 1st and 2nd does, so it makes sense to optimize for hitting the 1st spot and you do that by getting the best talent and you get the best talent by paying them more than others. We (programmers) don't need the unions to be paid well because there's still more demand for talent than supply of such talent. If it ever happens that we need unions to be well paid, the unions won't help much because you can't pay high salaries if you don't have high revenues. Also, given that software companies are generous with stock options, as part owners of the business, we should be very much against overpaying the employees, even if they are fellow developers.
- vacri 13y ago
  Cricket players do have players unions. They're not paid as much as NFL stars because there's less money overall in cricket. Pilots' unions in the US are an example of a skilled profession milking the industry. You can't have an airline without pilots, and the union knows exactly how much the airlines make - and pitch their wage demands to just below 'breaking the bank'. The value of IT staff is harder to quantify - a commercial plane needs two pilots (generally). An IT department needs... ?
  - jsmthrowaway 13y ago