7 ms·

A lot of companies out there are run by total morons or psychopaths, this doesn't surprise me at all. This sounds like a combination of both. I was recently in

A lot of companies out there are run by total morons or psychopaths, this doesn't surprise me at all. This sounds like a combination of both. I was recently introduced to a job by a recruiter and they wanted me to do a "programming assignment" which would take at least 20 hours, before I could even talk to them and see who they were. I was like, "Cool story bro". The reason why I bring that up is because I noticed the same pattern here; this job ad is screening for desperate people lacking a spine. I can't imagine any decent developer with a good job applying for this. Only someone desperately looking for work and having relatively low skills would willingly take this job, assuming he's not an idiot.

seiji 13y ago
Recruiting for a company that has fans (actual, fanatic fans) can be tricky. Sometimes you can play the candidate's enthusiasm against them. Sometimes they come in with unrealistic expectations and burn out in six months. Sometimes you do the sane thing and just hire somebody who has never heard of you.
- prawn 13y ago
  This seems to happen with (especially female) journalists writing for fashion magazines. Salaries are low but number of applicants is high.
- Tloewald 13y ago
  The big problem is going to be too many applicants. Suggesting the job will be shitty and low paid seems to be a great way to filter out competent applicants.
  - trothoun 13y ago
    Maybe they are building a blacklist from the applicants and will post the real job description later. If this were true I would be more at peace with the world than I presently am.
- hobbes 13y ago
  I applied for a job a few years ago, which had two interviews. The first interview was to determine my technical ability and character. The second interview was for them to gauge my reaction to all the crap parts of the job. They told me about the level of social life, the tedious tasks I will have to do, and so on. They said that, previously, they had talked-up the position to attract someone only for them to leave once they realized the reality wasn't quite so great. So, if I took the job, I would not be shocked once I got to my desk. In the end I didn't get the job, but this is the only interview I have been in that didn't try to hide the bad bits or to over-hype the good bits. So, yeah, unrealistic expectations are an issue. But, I mostly blame the hiring company for talking out of their backsides in order to recruit.
kmfrk 13y ago
The irony (hypocrisy) is palpable: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/01/25 http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/01/25.
rrich 13y ago
I think it brings up the issue of considering at what time is it better to compete against them rather than join them.
- eru 13y ago
  Either compete or go into a different business. Don't take a bad job.
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  PA isn't a software company though. "Competing" against PA means having a web comic (or other artistic content) of your own, it doesn't mean doing software somewhere else.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    You could do software that meets their needs, and offer to sell it to them and others. Not competing with their actual business, but competing with their would-be internal development processes.
pyrocat 13y ago
Before resorting to ad hominem attacks you may want to do some research on who you're attacking. Robert Khoo is neither a moron nor a psychopath. I disagree with his job posting, but it helps no one to attack the person behind it (with false insults) instead of attacking the posting itself and what it represents.
- na85 13y ago
  I think someone who so blatantly values his developers so little deserves to be insulted.
  - pyrocat 13y ago
    Well at least do some research before you insult him then? Here are some options: enabler, workaholic, calculating
  - eridius 13y ago
    What about someone who values honesty enough to actually list the accurate job posting, which honestly doesn't sound that different than a lot of jobs in this industry. The biggest difference is those jobs didn't actually list the bad conditions in the job posting.
    - singular 13y ago
      So it's ok to be an abusive arsehole as long as you're honest about it? The only crime is to be a dishonest arsehole? How about being a decent reasonable human being/employer? Or is that just off the table altogether in this discussion? With limbo-like justifications like this I'm not surprised these kind of diseased company cultures exist.
      - nightski 13y ago
        Yes. You are acting like this job is not voluntary.
        13y ago
lsc 13y ago
>The reason why I bring that up is because I noticed the same pattern here; this job ad is screening for desperate people lacking a spine. I can't imagine any decent developer with a good job applying for this. Only someone desperately looking for work and having relatively low skills would willingly take this job, assuming he's not an idiot. Hey, 17 year old kids, and people who have been out of work for years need jobs too, you know. (actual skill correlates... much less than it ought with employment desperation, in my opinion.) And it looks to me (and apparently, to you) like the penny-arcade folks are being pretty clear about what they want. And that's fine. Some people (usually very inexperienced people) really like the "hero ninja rockstar" rhetoric, and that's fine. I think many intern level folks respond better to thinking of themselves as rockstar ninjas than as interns. And as we're all clear on what that actually means, hey, if it makes them feel good, who am I to complain? The other thing you need to understand is that most of the rhetoric about 'heroic work schedules' is empty. My experience has been that the people I know who actually work the most, I mean, once you take out all the time on hacker news and facebook? they don't talk about how much they work. In fact, they usually worry that they aren't working enough. When I hear people crow about a ridiculous work schedule? I hear "I put in 45 hours a week at the office, but half that time is on facebook or chatting with co-workers" People who actually work a lot are constantly concerned that they aren't working enough.
- joe_the_user 13y ago
  Hey, 17 year old kids, and people who have been out of work for years need jobs too, you know. Yeah, they and similarly desperate people may indeed fall pray to this kind of thing. See below. And it looks to me (and apparently, to you) like the penny-arcade folks are being pretty clear about what they want. In this economy, ads saying "we're looking for someone to suck dry till we leave their bleached bones on the beach somewhere" can pull people in because ... desperation. See, your above. But I don't care, such vampires need to be called on their antics regardless of this free choice.
  - lsc 13y ago
    >In this economy, ads saying "we're looking for someone to suck dry till we leave their bleached bones on the beach somewhere" can pull people in because ... desperation. See, your above. Yeah... but like I said, I don't believe people who claim heroic hours. I don't believe companies who say that '50-60 hours' is normal. they mean that /claiming/ 50 hours a week is normal. Yes, some people do actually work brutal hours, but they don't brag about it. They worry that they aren't working enough. Some employers really pressure people to work brutal hours, but they brag about that even less. In fact, the places that claim heroic hours more often have beer Fridays and unfiltered internet access (and a culture that makes it okay to hang out on facebook and HN on work hours.) Generally, they also let you come in when you want, meaning that you can show up before your boss (It doesn't matter how much before your boss) /or/ show up after your boss (it doesn't matter how much after your boss) and plausibly claim crazy hours. There is /extreme/ resistance to any sort of actual time tracking for this reason. It's like the coaches who say "give 110%" yeah, they are irritating, and the rest of us look down on them, but there is a group of people who eat that shit up. I'm sorry, but even if you are spending 45 or even 50 hours a week in the office (and the number of folks who go beyond that, ninja rockstar or not, is vanishingly small[1]) if half of that time is spent socializing or screwing off on the internet? it's not really that brutal. It's basically the same thing as being at home, except you have to wear pants. Edit: dug up the source for the article: [1]https://web.archive.org/web/20130309155432/http://bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/06/art3full.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20130309155432/http://bls.gov/op...

seiji 13y ago

Recruiting for a company that has fans (actual, fanatic fans) can be tricky. Sometimes you can play the candidate's enthusiasm against them. Sometimes they come in with unrealistic expectations and burn out in six months. Sometimes you do the sane thing and just hire somebody who has never heard of you.

prawn 13y ago
This seems to happen with (especially female) journalists writing for fashion magazines. Salaries are low but number of applicants is high.
Tloewald 13y ago
The big problem is going to be too many applicants. Suggesting the job will be shitty and low paid seems to be a great way to filter out competent applicants.
- trothoun 13y ago
  Maybe they are building a blacklist from the applicants and will post the real job description later. If this were true I would be more at peace with the world than I presently am.
hobbes 13y ago
I applied for a job a few years ago, which had two interviews. The first interview was to determine my technical ability and character. The second interview was for them to gauge my reaction to all the crap parts of the job. They told me about the level of social life, the tedious tasks I will have to do, and so on. They said that, previously, they had talked-up the position to attract someone only for them to leave once they realized the reality wasn't quite so great. So, if I took the job, I would not be shocked once I got to my desk. In the end I didn't get the job, but this is the only interview I have been in that didn't try to hide the bad bits or to over-hype the good bits. So, yeah, unrealistic expectations are an issue. But, I mostly blame the hiring company for talking out of their backsides in order to recruit.

kmfrk 13y ago

The irony (hypocrisy) is palpable: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/01/25 http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/01/25.

rrich 13y ago

I think it brings up the issue of considering at what time is it better to compete against them rather than join them.

eru 13y ago
Either compete or go into a different business. Don't take a bad job.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
PA isn't a software company though. "Competing" against PA means having a web comic (or other artistic content) of your own, it doesn't mean doing software somewhere else.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  You could do software that meets their needs, and offer to sell it to them and others. Not competing with their actual business, but competing with their would-be internal development processes.

pyrocat 13y ago

Before resorting to ad hominem attacks you may want to do some research on who you're attacking. Robert Khoo is neither a moron nor a psychopath. I disagree with his job posting, but it helps no one to attack the person behind it (with false insults) instead of attacking the posting itself and what it represents.

na85 13y ago
I think someone who so blatantly values his developers so little deserves to be insulted.
- pyrocat 13y ago
  Well at least do some research before you insult him then? Here are some options: enabler, workaholic, calculating
- eridius 13y ago
  What about someone who values honesty enough to actually list the accurate job posting, which honestly doesn't sound that different than a lot of jobs in this industry. The biggest difference is those jobs didn't actually list the bad conditions in the job posting.
  - singular 13y ago
    So it's ok to be an abusive arsehole as long as you're honest about it? The only crime is to be a dishonest arsehole? How about being a decent reasonable human being/employer? Or is that just off the table altogether in this discussion? With limbo-like justifications like this I'm not surprised these kind of diseased company cultures exist.
    - nightski 13y ago
      Yes. You are acting like this job is not voluntary.
      - 13y ago

lsc 13y ago

>The reason why I bring that up is because I noticed the same pattern here; this job ad is screening for desperate people lacking a spine. I can't imagine any decent developer with a good job applying for this. Only someone desperately looking for work and having relatively low skills would willingly take this job, assuming he's not an idiot. Hey, 17 year old kids, and people who have been out of work for years need jobs too, you know. (actual skill correlates... much less than it ought with employment desperation, in my opinion.) And it looks to me (and apparently, to you) like the penny-arcade folks are being pretty clear about what they want. And that's fine. Some people (usually very inexperienced people) really like the "hero ninja rockstar" rhetoric, and that's fine. I think many intern level folks respond better to thinking of themselves as rockstar ninjas than as interns. And as we're all clear on what that actually means, hey, if it makes them feel good, who am I to complain? The other thing you need to understand is that most of the rhetoric about 'heroic work schedules' is empty. My experience has been that the people I know who actually work the most, I mean, once you take out all the time on hacker news and facebook? they don't talk about how much they work. In fact, they usually worry that they aren't working enough. When I hear people crow about a ridiculous work schedule? I hear "I put in 45 hours a week at the office, but half that time is on facebook or chatting with co-workers" People who actually work a lot are constantly concerned that they aren't working enough.

joe_the_user 13y ago
Hey, 17 year old kids, and people who have been out of work for years need jobs too, you know. Yeah, they and similarly desperate people may indeed fall pray to this kind of thing. See below. And it looks to me (and apparently, to you) like the penny-arcade folks are being pretty clear about what they want. In this economy, ads saying "we're looking for someone to suck dry till we leave their bleached bones on the beach somewhere" can pull people in because ... desperation. See, your above. But I don't care, such vampires need to be called on their antics regardless of this free choice.
- lsc 13y ago
  >In this economy, ads saying "we're looking for someone to suck dry till we leave their bleached bones on the beach somewhere" can pull people in because ... desperation. See, your above. Yeah... but like I said, I don't believe people who claim heroic hours. I don't believe companies who say that '50-60 hours' is normal. they mean that /claiming/ 50 hours a week is normal. Yes, some people do actually work brutal hours, but they don't brag about it. They worry that they aren't working enough. Some employers really pressure people to work brutal hours, but they brag about that even less. In fact, the places that claim heroic hours more often have beer Fridays and unfiltered internet access (and a culture that makes it okay to hang out on facebook and HN on work hours.) Generally, they also let you come in when you want, meaning that you can show up before your boss (It doesn't matter how much before your boss) /or/ show up after your boss (it doesn't matter how much after your boss) and plausibly claim crazy hours. There is /extreme/ resistance to any sort of actual time tracking for this reason. It's like the coaches who say "give 110%" yeah, they are irritating, and the rest of us look down on them, but there is a group of people who eat that shit up. I'm sorry, but even if you are spending 45 or even 50 hours a week in the office (and the number of folks who go beyond that, ninja rockstar or not, is vanishingly small[1]) if half of that time is spent socializing or screwing off on the internet? it's not really that brutal. It's basically the same thing as being at home, except you have to wear pants. Edit: dug up the source for the article: [1]https://web.archive.org/web/20130309155432/http://bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/06/art3full.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20130309155432/http://bls.gov/op...