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And of course, outraged and harmed by this you proceeded to stop using Google services. They are paying for it by acting in a way you find distasteful, so of c

And of course, outraged and harmed by this you proceeded to stop using Google services. They are paying for it by acting in a way you find distasteful, so of course you will show them by no longer using their services. Or ... are you using their services while moaning about it? No, I'm sure you wouldn't do that.

badman_ting 13y ago
Thanks for posting!
the_watcher 13y ago
Or, you continue using their services since they are the best value available, but also complain and point out problems you have with it. I think Google is happiest with this option, so they at least know what their users complain about.
- GeorgeOrr 13y ago
  I hear you. But I will point out that they are often just the default option not necessarily the best available. I learnt that when they stopped supporting their news reader. It forced me to look at what had been out there all along, but I had simply not looked because their reader was good enough. They taught me in this way to look for alternatives that are often better. For instance, I've come to appreciate the features at: https://duckduckgo.com/?q= https://duckduckgo.com/?q= For search. Google isn't any more evil than they have ever been - they are however huge and it's almost certain that some aspect of what they do will rub lots of people the wrong way. I don't avoid them like the plague, but I also don't stick to services I don't like and I suggest as much as I can seeking out alternatives. If you don't like being the product that is sold, leave. If you like the trade for the value you get, than it's worked out well for you. I can't blame them for making an offer you chose to accept.
  - the_watcher 13y ago
    >> But I will point out that they are often just the default option not necessarily the best available. That seems like the optimal place for Google to be. Aware of its user's complaints, but also aware that they haven't moved on, as well as what alternatives are being brought up.
thepicard 13y ago
I agree on some level, but you also can't say that this is a great thing. All these extreme opinions... Can't we all just agree that Google is pretty great, but going through an annoying phase right now? Google _is_ taking advantage of the fact that most users won't leave, and I don't appreciate that. But at the same time, we are all slowly losing our patience, and in the long run this behaviour could hurt Google. I hope for everyone's sakes that this all settles down.
ChuckMcM 13y ago
It's more the cognitive dissonance of believing one thing while seeing invalidation of that belief right in front of you. For a while it will be "this must be a mistake" before it gets to "Hmm, I guess I interpreted their motivations much differently than they actually are, time to move on." To its credit, Google has a couple of fecal units worth of dashboards and data about retention and quality so somewhere there is a chart where the line has started to go flat, perhaps even down. Questions will be raised, bonuses will be put into jeopardy, and eventually a new consensus or messaging will be reached. It will be interesting to see if the company has reached the point where its ability to respond yet fatally trails the markets ability to change. Every company seems to get to that point eventually.
baldfat 13y ago
OR I realized that this was always the case! When I signed up for GMail in beta (remember they had ads based off your email BUT you got a gig) I still use Google and I use Google+ shot me :)
sbt 13y ago
Moving off Google is not as hard as I thought it would be. I expect to only be using maps and Zagat in the near future, but this will be anonymous, the rest has been replaced. 1. Finally got my Google+ deleted. The reason I even had one to begin with was that Google forced it on me. 2. Started using DuckDuckGo, took about a month to get used to, but I am starting to like it more and more, not sure if I would go back to Google even if they weren't info vamps. 3. I could migrate to another email provider, but I am waiting it out for a bit longer to see what interesting alternatives pop up in the wake of this. But at that point, forwarding and phasing in a new email should be relatively easy. 4. Waiting it out with messaging, but will definitely move of GTalk/Hangouts for non-work. I don't have anything to hide from Google, but their pushy approach is making me sick. It is just not worth doing business with people like this.
- wuschel 13y ago
  I find DuckDuckGo to be a nice alternative to Google, although I have to switch to google.com for certain searches. As for email - if I can not connect with IMAP, I am still using the plain old HTML web interface for GMail. The new one has too much clutter. But I am also searching for an alternative with good uptime. As such, Gmail is the only thing that keeps me connected with google. Any alternatives?
  - masnick 13y ago
    Yes, FastMail. I wrote a blog post a while ago about switching from Gmail: http://www.maxmasnick.com/2013/07/19/fastmail/ http://www.maxmasnick.com/2013/07/19/fastmail/
    - Ssanders 13y ago
      Very helpful, thanks. Been looking for an email alternative.
- abraxasz 13y ago
  A few points: 2) I've also switched to DDG, but I still find that google gives me somewhat better results for things related to programming are academics. Apart from that, I like DDG a lot. 3) That's the big, big problem for me. I could stop using virtually any other product labelled google without problem (ok, youtube excluded), but gmail keeps me there. Not so much that gmail itself is so great (it is good, for sure), but the act of switching emails, updating contacts left and right, is just a pain. 4) it seems to me that most providers for hangout/video type of things are equally obnoxious with the way they handle your data.. Going back to the email stuff, I guess I'm also waiting for a decent alternative to pop up, as I'm not inclined to switch 10 times in the next 6 months..
jarrett 13y ago
I've never understood this condescension and self-righteousness towards those who complain about a service yet still use the service. It's as if complaining about a business you patronize is childish or petty. Why does anyone think that? It's often economically rational for a customer to say "I'd like to continue using your product/service, but I have a specific complaint about it."[1] That's what all these posts about Google+ are doing. It's not like anyone's shouting "We need to pass laws against this, right now!" Nobody is questioning Google's legal and moral right to force Google+ on us. Rather, people are saying it's a poor choice and Google's part, and it annoys customers. [1] These issues are discussed in Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty The basic idea is that an aggrieved consumer can either take their business elsewhere, which is termed "exit," or try to change the company's behavior through things like the OP's blog post, which is termed "voice." Customers sometimes choose voice as their first recourse, and if things get worse or don't improve, the customers sometimes exit.
- GeorgeOrr 13y ago
  Re-read the original article. When someone writes with such extreme language about a transaction they've apparently gotten value out of - then fail to even mention the idea of exit, then I suppose my response will let a little condescension and self-righteousness seep through. Your inability to understand that is just not relevant.
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    The reason you are being downvoted to oblivion (as you should be) is that your entire argument is a red herring. Whether the author continues to use Google services is utterly and completely irrelevant. The point of contention here is the sleazy way Google re-activates a service for them after they have explicitly disabled it. If your answer to this dilemma is to stop using Google services altogether, then I'm sorry but you just lost all credibility and will not be taken seriously.
    - tsaoutourpants 13y ago
gress 13y ago
Is the only right of expression in your world is whether to use a service or not? Why should people be forced into silence if they don't like something? This seems especially relevant in a world where services are increasingly integrated.
nashequilibrium 13y ago
I have started the painful migration from google slowly, we hate change but I am doing it slowly. This is what I am using as a replacement: Gmail----> back to my old yahoo account Search----> Bing Drive ----> Dropbox,Ubuntu one Picasa ----> Dropbox Gtalk ----> whatsapp, Skype Chrome ---> Firefox
- psbp 13y ago
  Do we really need this comment in every google thread? Does anyone here actually think that there's no alternatives to google or are we just circlejerking with the slowly (and seemingly endlessly) moving off google conceit.
- mavhc 13y ago
  Because Microsoft/Dropbox/etc don't want your info?
  - dingaling 13y ago
    Oh I'm sure they love that lovely data, but they don't have the consolidated holistic view that Google has in the example given.
- Guest2931 13y ago
  AdSense ---> ? Analytics ---> ? Any suggestions here?
  - tagawa 13y ago
    I'm a happy user of https://clicky.com https://clicky.com for analytics.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
bnegreve 13y ago
When you've been relying on a service for a while and the TOS suddenly change it seems fair to complain: OP would have probably picked a different service if he knew.
chc 13y ago
> Or ... are you using their services while moaning about it? No, I'm sure you wouldn't do that. It makes a lot more sense to moan about something you use than to moan about something you don't. For example, I don't moan about how bad Katy Perry's album is because I don't own that album. I don't moan about how uncomfortable the seats in my old car were because I don't drive it anymore. I do moan about poor pick-up time estimates at a restaurant I frequent because I am actually their customer. The idea that you should only complain about things you don't use is bizarre.
sixothree 13y ago
I've personally started removing myself from google services one baby step at a time. The whole spying and g+ thing has really left a bad taste in my mouth. They just don't seem interested in not creeping me out.

badman_ting 13y ago

Thanks for posting!

the_watcher 13y ago

Or, you continue using their services since they are the best value available, but also complain and point out problems you have with it. I think Google is happiest with this option, so they at least know what their users complain about.

GeorgeOrr 13y ago
I hear you. But I will point out that they are often just the default option not necessarily the best available. I learnt that when they stopped supporting their news reader. It forced me to look at what had been out there all along, but I had simply not looked because their reader was good enough. They taught me in this way to look for alternatives that are often better. For instance, I've come to appreciate the features at: https://duckduckgo.com/?q= https://duckduckgo.com/?q= For search. Google isn't any more evil than they have ever been - they are however huge and it's almost certain that some aspect of what they do will rub lots of people the wrong way. I don't avoid them like the plague, but I also don't stick to services I don't like and I suggest as much as I can seeking out alternatives. If you don't like being the product that is sold, leave. If you like the trade for the value you get, than it's worked out well for you. I can't blame them for making an offer you chose to accept.
- the_watcher 13y ago
  >> But I will point out that they are often just the default option not necessarily the best available. That seems like the optimal place for Google to be. Aware of its user's complaints, but also aware that they haven't moved on, as well as what alternatives are being brought up.

thepicard 13y ago

I agree on some level, but you also can't say that this is a great thing. All these extreme opinions... Can't we all just agree that Google is pretty great, but going through an annoying phase right now? Google _is_ taking advantage of the fact that most users won't leave, and I don't appreciate that. But at the same time, we are all slowly losing our patience, and in the long run this behaviour could hurt Google. I hope for everyone's sakes that this all settles down.

ChuckMcM 13y ago

It's more the cognitive dissonance of believing one thing while seeing invalidation of that belief right in front of you. For a while it will be "this must be a mistake" before it gets to "Hmm, I guess I interpreted their motivations much differently than they actually are, time to move on." To its credit, Google has a couple of fecal units worth of dashboards and data about retention and quality so somewhere there is a chart where the line has started to go flat, perhaps even down. Questions will be raised, bonuses will be put into jeopardy, and eventually a new consensus or messaging will be reached. It will be interesting to see if the company has reached the point where its ability to respond yet fatally trails the markets ability to change. Every company seems to get to that point eventually.

baldfat 13y ago

OR I realized that this was always the case! When I signed up for GMail in beta (remember they had ads based off your email BUT you got a gig) I still use Google and I use Google+ shot me :)

sbt 13y ago

Moving off Google is not as hard as I thought it would be. I expect to only be using maps and Zagat in the near future, but this will be anonymous, the rest has been replaced. 1. Finally got my Google+ deleted. The reason I even had one to begin with was that Google forced it on me. 2. Started using DuckDuckGo, took about a month to get used to, but I am starting to like it more and more, not sure if I would go back to Google even if they weren't info vamps. 3. I could migrate to another email provider, but I am waiting it out for a bit longer to see what interesting alternatives pop up in the wake of this. But at that point, forwarding and phasing in a new email should be relatively easy. 4. Waiting it out with messaging, but will definitely move of GTalk/Hangouts for non-work. I don't have anything to hide from Google, but their pushy approach is making me sick. It is just not worth doing business with people like this.

wuschel 13y ago
I find DuckDuckGo to be a nice alternative to Google, although I have to switch to google.com for certain searches. As for email - if I can not connect with IMAP, I am still using the plain old HTML web interface for GMail. The new one has too much clutter. But I am also searching for an alternative with good uptime. As such, Gmail is the only thing that keeps me connected with google. Any alternatives?
- masnick 13y ago
  Yes, FastMail. I wrote a blog post a while ago about switching from Gmail: http://www.maxmasnick.com/2013/07/19/fastmail/ http://www.maxmasnick.com/2013/07/19/fastmail/
  - Ssanders 13y ago
    Very helpful, thanks. Been looking for an email alternative.
abraxasz 13y ago
A few points: 2) I've also switched to DDG, but I still find that google gives me somewhat better results for things related to programming are academics. Apart from that, I like DDG a lot. 3) That's the big, big problem for me. I could stop using virtually any other product labelled google without problem (ok, youtube excluded), but gmail keeps me there. Not so much that gmail itself is so great (it is good, for sure), but the act of switching emails, updating contacts left and right, is just a pain. 4) it seems to me that most providers for hangout/video type of things are equally obnoxious with the way they handle your data.. Going back to the email stuff, I guess I'm also waiting for a decent alternative to pop up, as I'm not inclined to switch 10 times in the next 6 months..

jarrett 13y ago

I've never understood this condescension and self-righteousness towards those who complain about a service yet still use the service. It's as if complaining about a business you patronize is childish or petty. Why does anyone think that? It's often economically rational for a customer to say "I'd like to continue using your product/service, but I have a specific complaint about it."[1] That's what all these posts about Google+ are doing. It's not like anyone's shouting "We need to pass laws against this, right now!" Nobody is questioning Google's legal and moral right to force Google+ on us. Rather, people are saying it's a poor choice and Google's part, and it annoys customers. [1] These issues are discussed in Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty The basic idea is that an aggrieved consumer can either take their business elsewhere, which is termed "exit," or try to change the company's behavior through things like the OP's blog post, which is termed "voice." Customers sometimes choose voice as their first recourse, and if things get worse or don't improve, the customers sometimes exit.

GeorgeOrr 13y ago
Re-read the original article. When someone writes with such extreme language about a transaction they've apparently gotten value out of - then fail to even mention the idea of exit, then I suppose my response will let a little condescension and self-righteousness seep through. Your inability to understand that is just not relevant.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  The reason you are being downvoted to oblivion (as you should be) is that your entire argument is a red herring. Whether the author continues to use Google services is utterly and completely irrelevant. The point of contention here is the sleazy way Google re-activates a service for them after they have explicitly disabled it. If your answer to this dilemma is to stop using Google services altogether, then I'm sorry but you just lost all credibility and will not be taken seriously.
  - tsaoutourpants 13y ago

gress 13y ago

Is the only right of expression in your world is whether to use a service or not? Why should people be forced into silence if they don't like something? This seems especially relevant in a world where services are increasingly integrated.

nashequilibrium 13y ago

I have started the painful migration from google slowly, we hate change but I am doing it slowly. This is what I am using as a replacement: Gmail----> back to my old yahoo account Search----> Bing Drive ----> Dropbox,Ubuntu one Picasa ----> Dropbox Gtalk ----> whatsapp, Skype Chrome ---> Firefox

psbp 13y ago
Do we really need this comment in every google thread? Does anyone here actually think that there's no alternatives to google or are we just circlejerking with the slowly (and seemingly endlessly) moving off google conceit.
mavhc 13y ago
Because Microsoft/Dropbox/etc don't want your info?
- dingaling 13y ago
  Oh I'm sure they love that lovely data, but they don't have the consolidated holistic view that Google has in the example given.
Guest2931 13y ago
AdSense ---> ? Analytics ---> ? Any suggestions here?
- tagawa 13y ago
  I'm a happy user of https://clicky.com https://clicky.com for analytics.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

bnegreve 13y ago

When you've been relying on a service for a while and the TOS suddenly change it seems fair to complain: OP would have probably picked a different service if he knew.

chc 13y ago

> Or ... are you using their services while moaning about it? No, I'm sure you wouldn't do that. It makes a lot more sense to moan about something you use than to moan about something you don't. For example, I don't moan about how bad Katy Perry's album is because I don't own that album. I don't moan about how uncomfortable the seats in my old car were because I don't drive it anymore. I do moan about poor pick-up time estimates at a restaurant I frequent because I am actually their customer. The idea that you should only complain about things you don't use is bizarre.

sixothree 13y ago

I've personally started removing myself from google services one baby step at a time. The whole spying and g+ thing has really left a bad taste in my mouth. They just don't seem interested in not creeping me out.