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A somewhat related note is that America's culture of sex-negativity, shame and general hysteria around nudity is a required prerequisite for this type of bullyi

by marvin 13y ago

A somewhat related note is that America's culture of sex-negativity, shame and general hysteria around nudity is a required prerequisite for this type of bullying and abuse. Look at the following paragraph: > Jill became hysterical, repeating, "Oh, my God. No. Oh, my God. No." This is, obviously, the reaction of someone who fears repercussions from others. And this is for completely harmless acts (taking nude photos), which almost everyone does these days. And with good reason. Society in the US clamps down hard on people (women to a greater degree, but also men) who have the audacity to express their sexuality. That this expression was in no way intended for the public, makes no difference. Once it becomes publicly known, you are a slut (or a pervert) and harshly punished. Perverts are no good, and sluts are worse. This cultural norm is the only reason this type of shaming has any effect. But really, we are all sluts and perverts. A good first step would be to go after the psychopaths who run campaigns like these. A good second step would be to abolish the cultural norms that allow sexuality and nudity to be used as a weapon. If you look at "alternative" sexual societies like swingers' clubs or BDSM communities, you will often hear the word "pervert" or "slut" used in a positive sense, the way homosexuals are reclaiming literally every derogatory term used about their sexual identity. Most people in these communities are very aware and careful regarding the reactions of outside society if it became known what they do in their bedrooms, but the capability to make them feel bad about themselves for acts of nudity or sex is often completely absent.

scotty79 13y ago
Perv: "I've seen you naked." Response in sane culture: "Nobody cares. Grow up and find something useful to be excited about."
- ars 13y ago
  Presumably both of you will now go ahead and post naked pictures of yourself since you don't care if anyone sees them? Perhaps follow up with bank and medical records? Or do you feel that privacy only applies to things other than nudity? Oh and I'm sure you wouldn't mind hundreds of people contacting you and your employer and calling you all sorts of names.
  - techsupporter 13y ago
    No. Though I obviously can't speak for either of the folks above, I read their reactions as them not caring whether other people saw nude pictures of them. Instead, they care about other folks' reactions to those pictures and that is what the above replies want to guard against. If the latter (the reaction by others) wasn't negative, the former (the posting of nude photos) wouldn't have a stigma that the jerks in the linked article could exploit.
  - aaron695 13y ago
    I think the fact, as per the article, a victim teaching at a school was treated like the perpetrator is partially what they are referring to. Just like the good old days where the rape victims were the ones at fault. Society has a lot to blame for here as well.
    - ceol 13y ago
      Rape victim-blaming still happens. A lot.
      - chris_wot 13y ago
        Sadly, we recently saw it on HN.
    - ars 13y ago
      > victim teaching at a school was treated like the perpetrator I thought the problem was people calling (i.e. harassing) the school about her? I would hope they gave her some time to deal with things, then let her back in her job.
      - scotty79 13y ago
        >> victim teaching at a school was treated like the perpetrator > I thought the problem was people calling (i.e. harassing) the school about her? No. People calling was problem of the school. Treating her like perpetrator was her problem and her workplace was at fault there.
- dinkumthinkum 13y ago
  This is just ridiculously dismissive and fanciful.
nsxwolf 13y ago
So would you say that Hunter Moore is really a hero? Helping us all get over our hang ups wether we like it or not?
- boomlinde 13y ago
  I don't think you read the entire parent post.
- simonsarris 13y ago
  I think that's a stretch - it would be like saying war is really a good thing because of the (possibly good) ending side effects. If I may recall the relevant operetta on HN: CANDIDE: Objection! What about war? PANGLOSS: War! Though war may seem a bloody curse It is a blessing in reverse When canon roar -- Both rich and poor By danger are united! (Till every wrong is righted!) Philosophers make evident The point that I have cited 'Tis war makes equal -- as it were -- The noble and the commoner Thus war improves relations! (Pangloss tries to justify the apparent imperfections of the world by claiming that it is optimal among all possible worlds. It must be the best possible world, because it was created by an all powerful/knowing God, who would not choose to create an imperfect world if a better world could be known to him.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide
  - rustynails77 13y ago
    "it would be like saying war is really a good thing because of the (possibly good) ending side effects." >it would be like saying war is really a good thing because of the (possibly good) ending side effects. War can be a good thing for that very reason. It can be a form of politics that is used to avoid further and larger loss of life. However, this only works if the war is not drawn out. Art of War (and relevant analyses) are good references on this topic. Art of War specifically talks about avoiding long and drawn out campaigns, and let's just say that a few recent examples come to mind.
  - tesseractive 13y ago
    Actually, supporting someone for shaming women because it furthers the goal of creating a society in which women are no longer shamed is more like supporting serial killers because the the publicity they draw helps people feel more strongly about the sanctity of human life.
gw 13y ago
Absolutely spot on. I have no sympathy for the villain, but this story sums up modern America: 1. A prudish culture in which women are fired for the slightest revealing photo. 2. A litigious culture in which courts and police are heavily relied on to solve disputes. 3. An infantilized youth remaining under the wings of their parents long after reaching adulthood. 4. A burgeoning labyrinth of overly-specific laws being added to regularly in response to each perceived "crisis".
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  A litigious culture in which courts and police are heavily relied on to solve disputes. That's what the courts ARE FOR. Are you saying you'd prefer to live in the world where Charlotte flies to Sacramento and calls Hunter out at high noon in a cowboy hat? Because it seems fairly clear the "negotiation" option was a complete non-starter.
  - gw 13y ago
    Courts don't exist to solve all disputes, surely. One clear indication that this is not an appropriate dispute to solve using men with guns is the fact that she had to rely on awkward legal maneuvers (retroactively registering the photo with the copyright office and sending a DMCA notice) that clearly weren't intended for this. The alternative is not to engage in a different form of violence, but rather to ignore it and continue on with your life. Edit: To be clear, I'm aware that some of these victims lost their jobs. I did not mean to suggest there was no harm done. However, they lost their job due to the prudish culture that I originally referred to, not directly by the actions of the villain.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      The alternative is not to engage in a different form of violence, but rather to ignore it and continue on with your life. You and I have our beliefs about sexuality, and perhaps any one woman showing up on this website could elect to ignore it. But it's quite clear that Hunter was causing women real harm & suffering, regardless what your or my beliefs about sexuality are. Particularly considering he got people fired. I don't know about you, but someone getting me fired is not some little joke I can ignore. One clear indication that this is not an appropriate dispute (...) is the fact that she had to rely on awkward legal maneuvers I disagree. I believe that's a clear indication the legal system is currently catching up to technology, not that the law doesn't belong on the internet.
Aloha 13y ago
In reality you're right. Seeing someone naked shouldn't be the end of the world - no one should be fired for nudes appearing online somewhere. No ones life should end. That said, this guy in a total sleeze, and knew that (a) he had no rights to do so (b) its morally wrong (c) it had a good chance of ruining peoples lives. While we need to fix the first problem I think (cultural taboo about nudity) what sleezebag did is still wrong, and not fixing the first problem.
michaelochurch 13y ago
It seems ridiculous to me that the existence of a naked photo (with no context) would be grounds for firing a teacher. It might not be real and, even if, all it proves is that she has a human body, which is not exactly news. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I agree; this country needs to grow the fuck up.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  It doesn't have anything to do with growing up. You have to go for the root cause, which is religious conservatism. Think about it: why can European TV channels show nudity (and sometimes even porn) during daytime? Is it because Europeans are more "grown up" or is it because they have more sane, liberal values and worldviews?
  - michaelochurch 13y ago
    Immaturity (in the aggregate) is an outgrowth and cause of cultural degradation, which is more of a problem in the US than in European countries in which, yes, people tend (on average) to be more socially balanced and adult. Religious conservatism is one expression of an immature mindset (an imaginary friend who rains buttfire on your ideological enemies by the millions). Hunter Moore does not appear religious, but shows a different expression of the pervasive immaturity. After the 1980s, the anti-intellectual undercurrent (that exists in all societies) metastasized through the resurgent conservative movement (Reagan Revolution). Combine this with economic forces that are (through no fault of their own, for many people) delaying adolescence into what used to be full adulthood and you get a stupid, immature, brain-dead culture.
    - Iku-Nuku-117G 13y ago
      This would be the same Europe where millions of people were murdered by their own governments within living memory, that had a functioning Fascist state (a real one) until 1975 and Communist slave states up until 1989, and that has has active "ethnic cleansing" going on right now? That Europe? Just checking.
sliverstorm 13y ago
I do not disagree with you, but in my eyes a sex-positive culture will not prevent the Hunter Moores of the world from making other people's lives miserable. Shaming over nudity is just one example, one way. I'm glad the FBI & judicial system appear to have been effective in this story. The fundamental reason this sort of thing happens (again, in my eyes) is because the internet is still a pretty lawless place; that's the root of what happened here.
- Nursie 13y ago
  >> a sex-positive culture will not prevent the Hunter Moores of the world from making other people's lives miserable. No, but it would be an easy weapon to take away from them.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    No, it would be a hard-as-shit weapon to take away from them. In theory it sounds easy, but culture moves at a glacial pace.
    - Nursie 13y ago
      Maybe in the US. I don't know, can't really see the slut-shaming working to this extent here in the UK, let alone other parts of Europe. Hell, Italy had an ex-pornstar as a member of parliament for some time IIRC.
      - sliverstorm 13y ago
        Right, because the UK & much of the EU already have that positive culture. You're standing on the mountain, we're ten thousand feet below in a valley, and you're asking why we can't just hop on up to the peak to join you quicklike :)
        Nursie 13y ago
        Perhaps so. I find the whole thing baffling. I find it genuinely difficult to understand how any actor was anything but sympathetic to the women in the story. It brings a whole new light to the idea of 'revenge porn', which I had always assumed was just a way to cause someone some embarrassment and would be quickly forgotten.
detcader 13y ago
America is sex-negative? I wish. We've sexualized every inch of women's bodies to the point where we've started sexualizing empty spaces around them (thigh gap). And nice derailing into "men are hurt by society toooooo!!!" Perverts aren't good, and these days they're called rapists. And there are a lot of them. But maybe you think rape/sexual assault only happens in dark alleys the woman probably shouldn't have been walking down anyway..
- ebiester 13y ago
  The women in question are considered "bad" because of a naked picture, presumably showing their sexuality. I would call that sex-negative. How can the word "slut" be considered a slur in a sex-positive society? Now, perhaps your point is that it is sex-positive, but only for men. The inequity of sex-acceptability is this: men have their status increased by the act of sex, and women have their status decreased by the act of sex. (Even this is problematic, but it works in general.) The question is this: is the right answer to normalize having sex with multiple partners so that the woman's status is not decreased by sexual activity, or is it to decrease the man's status by not being constrained to a monogamous relationship? Consider the gay male culture: within the culture, having sex is normalized -- it does not decrease one's status to have had sex with just about anyone. (this is problematized by AIDS, but stick with me.) A culture of sex-positivity may look like this: yes, it's highly sexualized, but within the culture there isn't a taboo of sex. A sex-negative culture, on the other hand, places shame on the participants of sex except within rigid boundaries. Is this better than sex-positivity? I argue no. The US culture, with respects to women, is heavily sexualized but isn't sex-positive.
- Renaud 13y ago
  >America is sex-negative? I wish. We've sexualized every inch of women's bodies[...] And that's not sex-negative?
- marvin 13y ago
  You hit too many sore spots for me to not suspect that you are trolling, but I'll give it a shot anyway. You obviously missed my point. Yes, the USA is sex-negative. Some examples: People are afraid to talk about sex, even with their children. It is not uncommon for young adults to be afraid of having sex because of the reactions of their parents. Many grownups have trouble expressing their sexual preferences, and hence go decades without being sexually fulfilled, even when married. Sex education in schools meets strong opposition in many places due to the fear of sexuality, with the consequence of teen pregnancies and rampant STIs. Then there's this post, where people lose their jobs because a naked photo of them showed up the internet. Women who publicly express their sexuality in any form are shamed, outside of a few limited contexts such as seedy nightclubs and advertising. I think these exampes are sufficient to define and demonstrate the extent of the problem. And yes, men are in fact also affected by this sex-negativity. Male sexuality is considered dangerous, of which your instinctive derailment into the crime of rape is a perfect example. This is an area where there is a surprising level of symmetry between the genders. Men are allowed more leeway in their choices and numbers of sex partners, but that's about it. When it comes to sexual expression outside of the norm, which is the preference for broad shoulders, big tits and missionary or doggy-style pounding, the pervert/slut label is thrown around all the time in contexts where it shouldn't be used. Oral sex was considered a perversion only two decades ago. Anal sex still is, to an extent. Get beyond that into the realm of nonmonogamy, fetishism or bondage, which are defining elements of many couples' sex lives, and all bets are off.
mistercow 13y ago
I find it hard to even muster anger at Moore and his followers. Moore is likely a psychopath, his followers are psychopaths and/or 13-year-olds, and it's hard for me to see those organisms as anything but a devastating force of nature. They need to be stopped from hurting people, but my emotional response to them is much like my response to malaria or HIV. No, the people who make me angry are the ones like that principal.
- mercurial 13y ago
  Moore certainly seems in serious need of psychological help. But the victim-blaming reaction of the other protagonists (the principal, the local police department...) is just terrible. Clearly, Moore and his followers are not the only ones with a clear lack of empathy. What I'm surprised about is that there did not seem to be any consequence to his lack of response to a DMCA takedown notice. Is this not enforceable short of a lawsuit?
  - marvin 13y ago
    Yes. The word "vitim blaming" gets thrown around a lot and used in places where it isn't appropriate, but the (female, no less!) police officer's reaction was a textbook example.
jusben1369 13y ago
This is largely a useless point though. All societies have a relative perspective around shame and nudity. Given that relativity claiming one to be too conservative or too liberal is a useless exercise. What matters here is that this is done by people to people within the same culture and is thus very distasteful.
mcv 13y ago
> A good first step would be to go after the psychopaths who run campaigns like these. A good second step would be to abolish the cultural norms that allow sexuality and nudity to be used as a weapon. Absolutely. The people who fire someone over simply having some photo online, carry part of the blame here. But the harassers themselves should all be in prison, and pay their victims for lost income and emotional damage. They are the true evil here, and should be treated as such.

by marvin 13y ago

scotty79 13y ago

Perv: "I've seen you naked." Response in sane culture: "Nobody cares. Grow up and find something useful to be excited about."

ars 13y ago
Presumably both of you will now go ahead and post naked pictures of yourself since you don't care if anyone sees them? Perhaps follow up with bank and medical records? Or do you feel that privacy only applies to things other than nudity? Oh and I'm sure you wouldn't mind hundreds of people contacting you and your employer and calling you all sorts of names.
- techsupporter 13y ago
  No. Though I obviously can't speak for either of the folks above, I read their reactions as them not caring whether other people saw nude pictures of them. Instead, they care about other folks' reactions to those pictures and that is what the above replies want to guard against. If the latter (the reaction by others) wasn't negative, the former (the posting of nude photos) wouldn't have a stigma that the jerks in the linked article could exploit.
- aaron695 13y ago
  I think the fact, as per the article, a victim teaching at a school was treated like the perpetrator is partially what they are referring to. Just like the good old days where the rape victims were the ones at fault. Society has a lot to blame for here as well.
  - ceol 13y ago
    Rape victim-blaming still happens. A lot.
    - chris_wot 13y ago
      Sadly, we recently saw it on HN.
  - ars 13y ago
    > victim teaching at a school was treated like the perpetrator I thought the problem was people calling (i.e. harassing) the school about her? I would hope they gave her some time to deal with things, then let her back in her job.
    - scotty79 13y ago
      >> victim teaching at a school was treated like the perpetrator > I thought the problem was people calling (i.e. harassing) the school about her? No. People calling was problem of the school. Treating her like perpetrator was her problem and her workplace was at fault there.
dinkumthinkum 13y ago
This is just ridiculously dismissive and fanciful.

nsxwolf 13y ago

So would you say that Hunter Moore is really a hero? Helping us all get over our hang ups wether we like it or not?

boomlinde 13y ago
I don't think you read the entire parent post.
simonsarris 13y ago
I think that's a stretch - it would be like saying war is really a good thing because of the (possibly good) ending side effects. If I may recall the relevant operetta on HN: CANDIDE: Objection! What about war? PANGLOSS: War! Though war may seem a bloody curse It is a blessing in reverse When canon roar -- Both rich and poor By danger are united! (Till every wrong is righted!) Philosophers make evident The point that I have cited 'Tis war makes equal -- as it were -- The noble and the commoner Thus war improves relations! (Pangloss tries to justify the apparent imperfections of the world by claiming that it is optimal among all possible worlds. It must be the best possible world, because it was created by an all powerful/knowing God, who would not choose to create an imperfect world if a better world could be known to him.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide
- rustynails77 13y ago
  "it would be like saying war is really a good thing because of the (possibly good) ending side effects." >it would be like saying war is really a good thing because of the (possibly good) ending side effects. War can be a good thing for that very reason. It can be a form of politics that is used to avoid further and larger loss of life. However, this only works if the war is not drawn out. Art of War (and relevant analyses) are good references on this topic. Art of War specifically talks about avoiding long and drawn out campaigns, and let's just say that a few recent examples come to mind.
- tesseractive 13y ago
  Actually, supporting someone for shaming women because it furthers the goal of creating a society in which women are no longer shamed is more like supporting serial killers because the the publicity they draw helps people feel more strongly about the sanctity of human life.

gw 13y ago

Absolutely spot on. I have no sympathy for the villain, but this story sums up modern America: 1. A prudish culture in which women are fired for the slightest revealing photo. 2. A litigious culture in which courts and police are heavily relied on to solve disputes. 3. An infantilized youth remaining under the wings of their parents long after reaching adulthood. 4. A burgeoning labyrinth of overly-specific laws being added to regularly in response to each perceived "crisis".

sliverstorm 13y ago
A litigious culture in which courts and police are heavily relied on to solve disputes. That's what the courts ARE FOR. Are you saying you'd prefer to live in the world where Charlotte flies to Sacramento and calls Hunter out at high noon in a cowboy hat? Because it seems fairly clear the "negotiation" option was a complete non-starter.
- gw 13y ago
  Courts don't exist to solve all disputes, surely. One clear indication that this is not an appropriate dispute to solve using men with guns is the fact that she had to rely on awkward legal maneuvers (retroactively registering the photo with the copyright office and sending a DMCA notice) that clearly weren't intended for this. The alternative is not to engage in a different form of violence, but rather to ignore it and continue on with your life. Edit: To be clear, I'm aware that some of these victims lost their jobs. I did not mean to suggest there was no harm done. However, they lost their job due to the prudish culture that I originally referred to, not directly by the actions of the villain.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    The alternative is not to engage in a different form of violence, but rather to ignore it and continue on with your life. You and I have our beliefs about sexuality, and perhaps any one woman showing up on this website could elect to ignore it. But it's quite clear that Hunter was causing women real harm & suffering, regardless what your or my beliefs about sexuality are. Particularly considering he got people fired. I don't know about you, but someone getting me fired is not some little joke I can ignore. One clear indication that this is not an appropriate dispute (...) is the fact that she had to rely on awkward legal maneuvers I disagree. I believe that's a clear indication the legal system is currently catching up to technology, not that the law doesn't belong on the internet.

Aloha 13y ago

In reality you're right. Seeing someone naked shouldn't be the end of the world - no one should be fired for nudes appearing online somewhere. No ones life should end. That said, this guy in a total sleeze, and knew that (a) he had no rights to do so (b) its morally wrong (c) it had a good chance of ruining peoples lives. While we need to fix the first problem I think (cultural taboo about nudity) what sleezebag did is still wrong, and not fixing the first problem.

michaelochurch 13y ago

It seems ridiculous to me that the existence of a naked photo (with no context) would be grounds for firing a teacher. It might not be real and, even if, all it proves is that she has a human body, which is not exactly news. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I agree; this country needs to grow the fuck up.

enraged_camel 13y ago
It doesn't have anything to do with growing up. You have to go for the root cause, which is religious conservatism. Think about it: why can European TV channels show nudity (and sometimes even porn) during daytime? Is it because Europeans are more "grown up" or is it because they have more sane, liberal values and worldviews?
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  Immaturity (in the aggregate) is an outgrowth and cause of cultural degradation, which is more of a problem in the US than in European countries in which, yes, people tend (on average) to be more socially balanced and adult. Religious conservatism is one expression of an immature mindset (an imaginary friend who rains buttfire on your ideological enemies by the millions). Hunter Moore does not appear religious, but shows a different expression of the pervasive immaturity. After the 1980s, the anti-intellectual undercurrent (that exists in all societies) metastasized through the resurgent conservative movement (Reagan Revolution). Combine this with economic forces that are (through no fault of their own, for many people) delaying adolescence into what used to be full adulthood and you get a stupid, immature, brain-dead culture.
  - Iku-Nuku-117G 13y ago
    This would be the same Europe where millions of people were murdered by their own governments within living memory, that had a functioning Fascist state (a real one) until 1975 and Communist slave states up until 1989, and that has has active "ethnic cleansing" going on right now? That Europe? Just checking.

sliverstorm 13y ago

I do not disagree with you, but in my eyes a sex-positive culture will not prevent the Hunter Moores of the world from making other people's lives miserable. Shaming over nudity is just one example, one way. I'm glad the FBI & judicial system appear to have been effective in this story. The fundamental reason this sort of thing happens (again, in my eyes) is because the internet is still a pretty lawless place; that's the root of what happened here.

Nursie 13y ago
>> a sex-positive culture will not prevent the Hunter Moores of the world from making other people's lives miserable. No, but it would be an easy weapon to take away from them.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  No, it would be a hard-as-shit weapon to take away from them. In theory it sounds easy, but culture moves at a glacial pace.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    Maybe in the US. I don't know, can't really see the slut-shaming working to this extent here in the UK, let alone other parts of Europe. Hell, Italy had an ex-pornstar as a member of parliament for some time IIRC.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      Right, because the UK & much of the EU already have that positive culture. You're standing on the mountain, we're ten thousand feet below in a valley, and you're asking why we can't just hop on up to the peak to join you quicklike :)
      - Nursie 13y ago
        Perhaps so. I find the whole thing baffling. I find it genuinely difficult to understand how any actor was anything but sympathetic to the women in the story. It brings a whole new light to the idea of 'revenge porn', which I had always assumed was just a way to cause someone some embarrassment and would be quickly forgotten.

detcader 13y ago

America is sex-negative? I wish. We've sexualized every inch of women's bodies to the point where we've started sexualizing empty spaces around them (thigh gap). And nice derailing into "men are hurt by society toooooo!!!" Perverts aren't good, and these days they're called rapists. And there are a lot of them. But maybe you think rape/sexual assault only happens in dark alleys the woman probably shouldn't have been walking down anyway..

ebiester 13y ago
The women in question are considered "bad" because of a naked picture, presumably showing their sexuality. I would call that sex-negative. How can the word "slut" be considered a slur in a sex-positive society? Now, perhaps your point is that it is sex-positive, but only for men. The inequity of sex-acceptability is this: men have their status increased by the act of sex, and women have their status decreased by the act of sex. (Even this is problematic, but it works in general.) The question is this: is the right answer to normalize having sex with multiple partners so that the woman's status is not decreased by sexual activity, or is it to decrease the man's status by not being constrained to a monogamous relationship? Consider the gay male culture: within the culture, having sex is normalized -- it does not decrease one's status to have had sex with just about anyone. (this is problematized by AIDS, but stick with me.) A culture of sex-positivity may look like this: yes, it's highly sexualized, but within the culture there isn't a taboo of sex. A sex-negative culture, on the other hand, places shame on the participants of sex except within rigid boundaries. Is this better than sex-positivity? I argue no. The US culture, with respects to women, is heavily sexualized but isn't sex-positive.
Renaud 13y ago
>America is sex-negative? I wish. We've sexualized every inch of women's bodies[...] And that's not sex-negative?
marvin 13y ago
You hit too many sore spots for me to not suspect that you are trolling, but I'll give it a shot anyway. You obviously missed my point. Yes, the USA is sex-negative. Some examples: People are afraid to talk about sex, even with their children. It is not uncommon for young adults to be afraid of having sex because of the reactions of their parents. Many grownups have trouble expressing their sexual preferences, and hence go decades without being sexually fulfilled, even when married. Sex education in schools meets strong opposition in many places due to the fear of sexuality, with the consequence of teen pregnancies and rampant STIs. Then there's this post, where people lose their jobs because a naked photo of them showed up the internet. Women who publicly express their sexuality in any form are shamed, outside of a few limited contexts such as seedy nightclubs and advertising. I think these exampes are sufficient to define and demonstrate the extent of the problem. And yes, men are in fact also affected by this sex-negativity. Male sexuality is considered dangerous, of which your instinctive derailment into the crime of rape is a perfect example. This is an area where there is a surprising level of symmetry between the genders. Men are allowed more leeway in their choices and numbers of sex partners, but that's about it. When it comes to sexual expression outside of the norm, which is the preference for broad shoulders, big tits and missionary or doggy-style pounding, the pervert/slut label is thrown around all the time in contexts where it shouldn't be used. Oral sex was considered a perversion only two decades ago. Anal sex still is, to an extent. Get beyond that into the realm of nonmonogamy, fetishism or bondage, which are defining elements of many couples' sex lives, and all bets are off.

mistercow 13y ago

I find it hard to even muster anger at Moore and his followers. Moore is likely a psychopath, his followers are psychopaths and/or 13-year-olds, and it's hard for me to see those organisms as anything but a devastating force of nature. They need to be stopped from hurting people, but my emotional response to them is much like my response to malaria or HIV. No, the people who make me angry are the ones like that principal.

mercurial 13y ago
Moore certainly seems in serious need of psychological help. But the victim-blaming reaction of the other protagonists (the principal, the local police department...) is just terrible. Clearly, Moore and his followers are not the only ones with a clear lack of empathy. What I'm surprised about is that there did not seem to be any consequence to his lack of response to a DMCA takedown notice. Is this not enforceable short of a lawsuit?
- marvin 13y ago
  Yes. The word "vitim blaming" gets thrown around a lot and used in places where it isn't appropriate, but the (female, no less!) police officer's reaction was a textbook example.

jusben1369 13y ago

This is largely a useless point though. All societies have a relative perspective around shame and nudity. Given that relativity claiming one to be too conservative or too liberal is a useless exercise. What matters here is that this is done by people to people within the same culture and is thus very distasteful.

mcv 13y ago

> A good first step would be to go after the psychopaths who run campaigns like these. A good second step would be to abolish the cultural norms that allow sexuality and nudity to be used as a weapon. Absolutely. The people who fire someone over simply having some photo online, carry part of the blame here. But the harassers themselves should all be in prison, and pay their victims for lost income and emotional damage. They are the true evil here, and should be treated as such.