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> a.) the lack of even distribution of early wealth Like an IPO? [1] > b.) the possibility that a great percentage of Bitcoin are currently held by bad actors

by gnerd 13y ago

> a.) the lack of even distribution of early wealth Like an IPO? [1] > b.) the possibility that a great percentage of Bitcoin are currently held by bad actors (criminals, anarchists, use your imagination). I know you are probably using the term anarchist in the colloquial sense (meaning those black bloc anarchists who smash things and want revolution) conjuring images of a Mad Max like dystopia, but would you consider Noam Chomsky a bad actor? People of that ilk just consider a different structure to organizing society, or as he puts it "a kind of voluntary socialism, that is, as libertarian socialist or anarcho-syndicalist or communist anarchist, in the tradition of, say, Bakunin and Kropotkin and others."[1] Sometimes its tempting to paint pictures with broad strokes but as someone who can appreciate many different political viewpoints (as long as they are peaceful and productive), it doesn't seem to make your image any more accurate. bitcoin.it has a page on some myths you should read.[3] [1] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Early_adopters_are_unfairly_rewarded https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Early_adopters_are_unfairly... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky%27s_political_views#Views_on_anarchism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky%27s_political_vie... [3] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#The_Bitcoin_community_consists_of_anarchist.2Fconspiracy_theorist.2Fgold_standard_.27weenies.27 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#The_Bitcoin_community_consi...

atmosx 13y ago
Well, early adopters do have an unfair advantage no matter how you links try to justify it.
- gnerd 13y ago
  Yeah, like every other economic system. That's life, that's nature. If you dumped 10% of your savings into BitCoin in 2010, you took a great risk and this is the reward. Had you been the angel investor dumping $100000 into Google when there was no business plan, the same applies or what about people who bought domain names for common words or phrases or < 3 letter domains in the early 90s, if that was you, you would have made a mint. The early bird catches the worm. That's the game, and you and I didn't win this round.
  - hrjet 13y ago
    More than the early adopters, I am more worried about the unfair advantage that the creators of Bitcoin enjoy. IIRC, just one individual already owns ~25% of all bitcoins that will ever be mined!
    - dingaling 13y ago
      Even the creators are at the mercy of the mining collectives, though. Once the Bitcoin generation rate falls to a level where the miners' primary incentive is transaction fees I expect we'll see an aggregation around a handful of big collectives, which will be the Bitcoin equivalent of Visa and Mastercard. And what will they say? Want your transaction processed? No matter if you're Satoshi himself, pay the fee.
- gizmo686 13y ago
  It's not the unfair advantage as much as the risk that individuals controll enough of the currency to cause significant damage to the market.
gaadd33 13y ago
An IPO is a good point, can you name a currency that had a similar IPO?
- gnerd 13y ago
  In English a simile is a comparison using the words 'like' or 'as'. So using that as a basis it should be fairly obvious that I was definitely not saying this is an IPO but rather comparing getting in early with BitCoin to getting in early with anything with a market value that could appreciate or depreciate (like stocks traded on a stock market, or newly discovered commodities etc.). There is risk and there is reward. If you are looking for examples of other currencies you could have made money with due to appreciation (if you got in early), then simply look at the developing countries with appreciating currencies, countries who peg their values to a currency basket that includes a rising commodity (like oil). Money is made (and lost) on speculating on forex markets everyday. The Kuwait Dinar springs to mind. Personally I think its better to compare BitCoin to a commodity that has scarcity and solves the coincidence of wants problem and so it can be used to exchange value for goods or services, like gold, silver, perhaps oil (to a lesser extent).
  - gaadd33 13y ago
    I am aware of the usage of like in the simile context. Thank you for your concern however. Due to your link also using an IPO as an example, I was wondering if there are any currencies which have operated in such a manner, namely rewarding first adopters. This question arose because, as you astutely point out in your second paragraph, most new currencies are pegged to either their replacement or alternatively to a basket of commodities or external currencies. I don't believe that there are any currencies, which when launched, were purely floating without any bands or a peg. Continuing the question, are there any currencies that are pegged to a basket which includes commodities? I'm not sure if you were referencing the Kuwaiti Dinar as one of those, or if you meant that people make and lose money speculating on it but in either case, it appears to only be tied to a basket of currencies. Very sorry if my English was not clear enough to express my question in the initial format. In the future I'll be sure to elucidate the question better rather then assuming the reader is able to follow along with the simile from the parent comment.
plainOldText 13y ago
I know it doesn't add anything to this discussion, but I must say, your reply is very articulate and elegant. What kind of books are you reading, if you don't mind my asking?

by gnerd 13y ago

atmosx 13y ago

Well, early adopters do have an unfair advantage no matter how you links try to justify it.

gnerd 13y ago
Yeah, like every other economic system. That's life, that's nature. If you dumped 10% of your savings into BitCoin in 2010, you took a great risk and this is the reward. Had you been the angel investor dumping $100000 into Google when there was no business plan, the same applies or what about people who bought domain names for common words or phrases or < 3 letter domains in the early 90s, if that was you, you would have made a mint. The early bird catches the worm. That's the game, and you and I didn't win this round.
- hrjet 13y ago
  More than the early adopters, I am more worried about the unfair advantage that the creators of Bitcoin enjoy. IIRC, just one individual already owns ~25% of all bitcoins that will ever be mined!
  - dingaling 13y ago
    Even the creators are at the mercy of the mining collectives, though. Once the Bitcoin generation rate falls to a level where the miners' primary incentive is transaction fees I expect we'll see an aggregation around a handful of big collectives, which will be the Bitcoin equivalent of Visa and Mastercard. And what will they say? Want your transaction processed? No matter if you're Satoshi himself, pay the fee.
gizmo686 13y ago
It's not the unfair advantage as much as the risk that individuals controll enough of the currency to cause significant damage to the market.

gaadd33 13y ago

An IPO is a good point, can you name a currency that had a similar IPO?

gnerd 13y ago
In English a simile is a comparison using the words 'like' or 'as'. So using that as a basis it should be fairly obvious that I was definitely not saying this is an IPO but rather comparing getting in early with BitCoin to getting in early with anything with a market value that could appreciate or depreciate (like stocks traded on a stock market, or newly discovered commodities etc.). There is risk and there is reward. If you are looking for examples of other currencies you could have made money with due to appreciation (if you got in early), then simply look at the developing countries with appreciating currencies, countries who peg their values to a currency basket that includes a rising commodity (like oil). Money is made (and lost) on speculating on forex markets everyday. The Kuwait Dinar springs to mind. Personally I think its better to compare BitCoin to a commodity that has scarcity and solves the coincidence of wants problem and so it can be used to exchange value for goods or services, like gold, silver, perhaps oil (to a lesser extent).
- gaadd33 13y ago
  I am aware of the usage of like in the simile context. Thank you for your concern however. Due to your link also using an IPO as an example, I was wondering if there are any currencies which have operated in such a manner, namely rewarding first adopters. This question arose because, as you astutely point out in your second paragraph, most new currencies are pegged to either their replacement or alternatively to a basket of commodities or external currencies. I don't believe that there are any currencies, which when launched, were purely floating without any bands or a peg. Continuing the question, are there any currencies that are pegged to a basket which includes commodities? I'm not sure if you were referencing the Kuwaiti Dinar as one of those, or if you meant that people make and lose money speculating on it but in either case, it appears to only be tied to a basket of currencies. Very sorry if my English was not clear enough to express my question in the initial format. In the future I'll be sure to elucidate the question better rather then assuming the reader is able to follow along with the simile from the parent comment.

plainOldText 13y ago

I know it doesn't add anything to this discussion, but I must say, your reply is very articulate and elegant. What kind of books are you reading, if you don't mind my asking?