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All I know is that if we rely on the free market to figure all of this out The government creates bubble after bubble causing enormous amounts of economic disl

by crusso 13y ago

All I know is that if we rely on the free market to figure all of this out The government creates bubble after bubble causing enormous amounts of economic dislocation in the housing market, college loans, healthcare, and on and on... and your conclusion is that somehow the free market is the problem or at very least not the solution? contributing their unique gifts to the betterment of humanity No system throughout history has ever contributed more to the "betterment of humanity" than the free market. As with so many things, Friedman said it best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

nerfhammer 13y ago
> The government creates bubble after bubble You can't make a statement like this and use it as a premise for something else and not expect to have to defend it as a statement unto itself. Given this is an extreme position you're going to have to have an extremely good argument for it for anyone to take it seriously. But assuming that the government does cause all "bubbles", why is it understandable that during such times market participants should start behaving irrationally, against their own best interests? Markets can solve anything, except bubbles caused by the government?
- 001sky 13y ago
  This is trivial. Not sure anyone needs to debate it. Latin american debt crisis. Peso crisis. Asian currency crisis. Russian currency crisis. Nasdaq bubble. Telecom bubble. Housing bubble. And current "QEx" bubble accross all asset classes from farmland, to Gold, to Art to Bitcoins, to London Real Estate ... {etc WTF?}. Markets need regulation, rules, and governing oversight. Without those, they are crap. Without those and mypoic distortion they are even worse. The problem is that there is money to be made from advising the government to "intervene" and its a good business model. 1/3 of the us economy is spent by politically motivated non-market entities. But the real damage is done by corrupted financial markets, another large proportion of the GDP. Just look where the money is going. As the suburbs of Washington overtake New York as the highest income counties in the US. There shouldn't be a question at all: A nexus of crony capitalism has emerged in the past 12-15 years.
  - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
    I'm not sure I get this? This seems to be "Governments control outsized amounts of cash and make bad decisions, for which well financed private markets exploit their bad positions sucking at the tax money and eventually a crisis occurs ending the situation till another political arbitrage occurs." it's just that a lot of the crises listed are to me less "political corruption and collusion with financiers and more the road to hell being paved with good intentions. ending political corruption is feasible, ending good intentions?
    - marcosdumay 13y ago
      Try something like "Government has outsized power to change economical outcomes, and punishes sustainable decisions hard, making any rational person choose the viable unsustainable ones. People that make unsustainable decisions (everybody still in the game, as the government destroyed everybody else) can't sustain themselves for long, and routinely face deep crisis". I guess that's a bit longer, but more clear. Things would be less bad if just one unlucky event in a crisis wasn't enough to destroy the entire life of somebody, but it is, so we must play russian roulette every few years. Anyway, I'm quite sure reducing the government intervention will replace this problem with something worse (that we can check on history books), thus the solution has to come from some other kind of change.
    - crusso 13y ago
      ending political corruption is feasible Wow, I'm not really sure what to say to that unless you mean that you can end political corruption by destroying the power base of government so that taking advantage of government doesn't mean much. My Homeowners' Association doesn't really have any significant corruption, but that's really just because they don't have much power or money to control. Whenever you concentrate large amounts of power, you will have corruption. That is as axiomatic as any part of life on Earth.
Apocryphon 13y ago
How did the government create the Dot-com bubble?
- cgore 13y ago
  The legal structure that replaced pensions with 401k's and the like is considered the main source of the bubble. It isn't a coincidence that the dot com bubble happened right as all the baby boomers were hoping to retire.
  - fiesycal 13y ago
    The dot-com bubble was late 90s very early 2000s. The established dates of birth for the baby boomer generation are from 1946-1964. In the year 2000 this puts the age range of the baby boomers from 36-54 years old. That means none of the baby boomers were retirement age. So I'm not sure how your explanation of them retiring is correct?
    - cgore 13y ago
      36-54 is exactly the years that you will be told by everybody you know to go to a financial planner and "get serious about retirement".
    - DigitalJack 13y ago
      Most people do their investing before they retire.
  - chrisgd 13y ago
    I have never heard that 401ks caused the bubble and would love to see more than one source that says this.
    - cgore 13y ago
      Before the 1970's most professionals and union workers had fixed-benefit pensions run by large corporations, supervised by accountants with very serious looks on their faces. As 401(k)'s became common for normal workers, instead of just perks for C*O's, all of a sudden their was a massive influx of money into the DJIA and NASDAQ, just as the baby boomers "save for retirement", mostly influenced by people like Jim Cramer and other dancing-finance-clowns. Also notice that the housing crash happened just as all the baby boomers' children go off to college and they decide to down-size from their McMansions since they are empty-nesters now. Thirdly notice how now medical expenditures nationwide are climbing greatly now that they are all becoming old and sickly. The next 10-15 years are a great time to be in the medical field, even with ObamaCare. But then as they die off it will be a horrible place to try to get a job.
caseydurfee 13y ago
How did the government create the derivatives bubble? Seems like the exact opposite happened: the government massively deregulated things, then just a few years later there was a bubble. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization... Since the bubble burst, what corrections has the free market made to prevent there isn't another one? So much of the rhetoric about "free markets" seems to come from looters who resent the government eliminating ways to make money by rent-seeking, collusion and fraud rather than producing useful goods. (edit: fixed link)
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  what corrections has the free market made to prevent there isn't another one? What does the free market care about bubbles? We've seen time and time again that the free market optimizes for "this quarter", not "this decade". If it means a crash a year from now, so what, let's just be sure to enjoy the ride and try to skim what we can before it hits!
lkrubner 13y ago
There is a possibility that the real interest rate that would force the market to full employment is negative, and therefore speculative bubbles and/or high inflation are the only ways we can currently achieve full employment. Paul Krugman has written a lot on this subject: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/secular-stagnation-coalmines-bubbles-and-larry-summers/ http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/secular-stagnati...

by crusso 13y ago

nerfhammer 13y ago

> The government creates bubble after bubble You can't make a statement like this and use it as a premise for something else and not expect to have to defend it as a statement unto itself. Given this is an extreme position you're going to have to have an extremely good argument for it for anyone to take it seriously. But assuming that the government does cause all "bubbles", why is it understandable that during such times market participants should start behaving irrationally, against their own best interests? Markets can solve anything, except bubbles caused by the government?

001sky 13y ago
This is trivial. Not sure anyone needs to debate it. Latin american debt crisis. Peso crisis. Asian currency crisis. Russian currency crisis. Nasdaq bubble. Telecom bubble. Housing bubble. And current "QEx" bubble accross all asset classes from farmland, to Gold, to Art to Bitcoins, to London Real Estate ... {etc WTF?}. Markets need regulation, rules, and governing oversight. Without those, they are crap. Without those and mypoic distortion they are even worse. The problem is that there is money to be made from advising the government to "intervene" and its a good business model. 1/3 of the us economy is spent by politically motivated non-market entities. But the real damage is done by corrupted financial markets, another large proportion of the GDP. Just look where the money is going. As the suburbs of Washington overtake New York as the highest income counties in the US. There shouldn't be a question at all: A nexus of crony capitalism has emerged in the past 12-15 years.
- lifeisstillgood 13y ago
  I'm not sure I get this? This seems to be "Governments control outsized amounts of cash and make bad decisions, for which well financed private markets exploit their bad positions sucking at the tax money and eventually a crisis occurs ending the situation till another political arbitrage occurs." it's just that a lot of the crises listed are to me less "political corruption and collusion with financiers and more the road to hell being paved with good intentions. ending political corruption is feasible, ending good intentions?
  - marcosdumay 13y ago
    Try something like "Government has outsized power to change economical outcomes, and punishes sustainable decisions hard, making any rational person choose the viable unsustainable ones. People that make unsustainable decisions (everybody still in the game, as the government destroyed everybody else) can't sustain themselves for long, and routinely face deep crisis". I guess that's a bit longer, but more clear. Things would be less bad if just one unlucky event in a crisis wasn't enough to destroy the entire life of somebody, but it is, so we must play russian roulette every few years. Anyway, I'm quite sure reducing the government intervention will replace this problem with something worse (that we can check on history books), thus the solution has to come from some other kind of change.
  - crusso 13y ago
    ending political corruption is feasible Wow, I'm not really sure what to say to that unless you mean that you can end political corruption by destroying the power base of government so that taking advantage of government doesn't mean much. My Homeowners' Association doesn't really have any significant corruption, but that's really just because they don't have much power or money to control. Whenever you concentrate large amounts of power, you will have corruption. That is as axiomatic as any part of life on Earth.

Apocryphon 13y ago

How did the government create the Dot-com bubble?

cgore 13y ago
The legal structure that replaced pensions with 401k's and the like is considered the main source of the bubble. It isn't a coincidence that the dot com bubble happened right as all the baby boomers were hoping to retire.
- fiesycal 13y ago
  The dot-com bubble was late 90s very early 2000s. The established dates of birth for the baby boomer generation are from 1946-1964. In the year 2000 this puts the age range of the baby boomers from 36-54 years old. That means none of the baby boomers were retirement age. So I'm not sure how your explanation of them retiring is correct?
  - cgore 13y ago
    36-54 is exactly the years that you will be told by everybody you know to go to a financial planner and "get serious about retirement".
  - DigitalJack 13y ago
    Most people do their investing before they retire.
- chrisgd 13y ago
  I have never heard that 401ks caused the bubble and would love to see more than one source that says this.
  - cgore 13y ago
    Before the 1970's most professionals and union workers had fixed-benefit pensions run by large corporations, supervised by accountants with very serious looks on their faces. As 401(k)'s became common for normal workers, instead of just perks for C*O's, all of a sudden their was a massive influx of money into the DJIA and NASDAQ, just as the baby boomers "save for retirement", mostly influenced by people like Jim Cramer and other dancing-finance-clowns. Also notice that the housing crash happened just as all the baby boomers' children go off to college and they decide to down-size from their McMansions since they are empty-nesters now. Thirdly notice how now medical expenditures nationwide are climbing greatly now that they are all becoming old and sickly. The next 10-15 years are a great time to be in the medical field, even with ObamaCare. But then as they die off it will be a horrible place to try to get a job.

caseydurfee 13y ago

How did the government create the derivatives bubble? Seems like the exact opposite happened: the government massively deregulated things, then just a few years later there was a bubble. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization... Since the bubble burst, what corrections has the free market made to prevent there isn't another one? So much of the rhetoric about "free markets" seems to come from looters who resent the government eliminating ways to make money by rent-seeking, collusion and fraud rather than producing useful goods. (edit: fixed link)

sliverstorm 13y ago
what corrections has the free market made to prevent there isn't another one? What does the free market care about bubbles? We've seen time and time again that the free market optimizes for "this quarter", not "this decade". If it means a crash a year from now, so what, let's just be sure to enjoy the ride and try to skim what we can before it hits!

lkrubner 13y ago

There is a possibility that the real interest rate that would force the market to full employment is negative, and therefore speculative bubbles and/or high inflation are the only ways we can currently achieve full employment. Paul Krugman has written a lot on this subject: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/secular-stagnation-coalmines-bubbles-and-larry-summers/ http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/secular-stagnati...