4 ms·

The danger here is that you can only talk conclusively about what you can measure, and imagination, which seems to me the most important component of genius, is

by pg 17y ago

The danger here is that you can only talk conclusively about what you can measure, and imagination, which seems to me the most important component of genius, is intrinsically hard to measure. If g is in practice dominated by another quality i that no one can measure, then whatever we say about g is beside the point.

dasil003 17y ago
I think the bigger danger is perpetuating the typical American cultural belief that people are with smart or stupid. Contrast actual American achievement with eastern cultures where they consider intelligence to be more of a skill that can be refined through practice. The author is rebutting feel-good pop psychology, which I suppose needs to be done for balance, but you can't argue with the achievement gap, and there are solid studies showing that praising kids for "working hard" leads to better achievement than praising them for "being smart."
- pg 17y ago
  Oh, I completely agree. And not just that it's good to act as if effort were what mattered. I think both imagination and intelligence can be learned.
  - aswanson 17y ago
    I agree that some forms of intelligence must be able to be learned, in the sense that it may involve employing the right algorithm (NlogN rather than N^N). There must be a software component involved that can be updated and accelerated through experience. In fact, that seems to be what experience is.
  - dasil003 17y ago
    Even if there is an absolute physical property of the brain that we could call intelligence, it would be foolish to think we could measure it through the results of a pencil and paper test.
- jimboyoungblood 17y ago
  eastern cultures where they consider intelligence to be more of a skill that can be refined through practice Which cultures are you referring to? I'm Chinese-American, and the impression I got from my parents is that they believe everything is genetically determined.
  - dasil003 17y ago
    I'm Brazilian-American so I know nothing of eastern culture first hand. This is just something that I recall reading many times in discussion of the performance gap between American and other students around the world. Do you believe your Chinese parent's views on the subject are representative of the predominant cultural beliefs in China?
    - jimboyoungblood 17y ago
      I've lived the vast majority of my life here, so I can't speak for the average Chinese person in China. But based on all the Asians I've ever met in the US, it's a pretty clear yes. The US is the most progressive nation in the world in terms of promoting ideals of racial and gender equality, which naturally results in more people believing in "genetic equality" as well. As such, I'd be very surprised if there were another nation/culture that downplayed the genetic influence on intelligence/aptitude as much as in the US, where people are taught that anyone can do anything if they want it badly enough. (e.g., "The Secret" book and dvd's)
johnnybgoode 17y ago
Both of the major sides here -- those who think g doesn't exist, and those who think g exists and is important -- tend to have some corresponding prescription for the school system. What's often ignored is that we barely know anything about this with any certainty, and the idea of someone being able to design a rigid school system that works for everyone is ridiculous. And even if g does exist, how important is it really? I'm reminded of amichail's scary idea of forcing everyone to take IQ tests.
kragen 17y ago
Alan Kay's version is punchier: "Point of view is worth 80 IQ points." (Wikiquote says this is from "talk at Creative Think seminar, 20 July 1982" and links to Andy Hertzfeld's notes at http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Creative_Think.txt http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story... for evidence.)
- caffeine 17y ago
  Sweat. Sweat is worth 80 IQ points. Hard, disciplined labor. Yeah, maybe the guy with the big swinging "g." has it easier. Mommy & daddy gave him his 80 free extra IQ points. My extra 80 points came from severe intellectual self-flagellation. So I think big swinging "g." is a wimp, because he never made anything of himself.
  - kragen 17y ago
    Sweat is worth a lot more than that. It's not additive; it's multiplicative.

by pg 17y ago

dasil003 17y ago

I think the bigger danger is perpetuating the typical American cultural belief that people are with smart or stupid. Contrast actual American achievement with eastern cultures where they consider intelligence to be more of a skill that can be refined through practice. The author is rebutting feel-good pop psychology, which I suppose needs to be done for balance, but you can't argue with the achievement gap, and there are solid studies showing that praising kids for "working hard" leads to better achievement than praising them for "being smart."

pg 17y ago
Oh, I completely agree. And not just that it's good to act as if effort were what mattered. I think both imagination and intelligence can be learned.
- aswanson 17y ago
  I agree that some forms of intelligence must be able to be learned, in the sense that it may involve employing the right algorithm (NlogN rather than N^N). There must be a software component involved that can be updated and accelerated through experience. In fact, that seems to be what experience is.
- dasil003 17y ago
  Even if there is an absolute physical property of the brain that we could call intelligence, it would be foolish to think we could measure it through the results of a pencil and paper test.
jimboyoungblood 17y ago
eastern cultures where they consider intelligence to be more of a skill that can be refined through practice Which cultures are you referring to? I'm Chinese-American, and the impression I got from my parents is that they believe everything is genetically determined.
- dasil003 17y ago
  I'm Brazilian-American so I know nothing of eastern culture first hand. This is just something that I recall reading many times in discussion of the performance gap between American and other students around the world. Do you believe your Chinese parent's views on the subject are representative of the predominant cultural beliefs in China?
  - jimboyoungblood 17y ago
    I've lived the vast majority of my life here, so I can't speak for the average Chinese person in China. But based on all the Asians I've ever met in the US, it's a pretty clear yes. The US is the most progressive nation in the world in terms of promoting ideals of racial and gender equality, which naturally results in more people believing in "genetic equality" as well. As such, I'd be very surprised if there were another nation/culture that downplayed the genetic influence on intelligence/aptitude as much as in the US, where people are taught that anyone can do anything if they want it badly enough. (e.g., "The Secret" book and dvd's)

johnnybgoode 17y ago

Both of the major sides here -- those who think g doesn't exist, and those who think g exists and is important -- tend to have some corresponding prescription for the school system. What's often ignored is that we barely know anything about this with any certainty, and the idea of someone being able to design a rigid school system that works for everyone is ridiculous. And even if g does exist, how important is it really? I'm reminded of amichail's scary idea of forcing everyone to take IQ tests.

kragen 17y ago

Alan Kay's version is punchier: "Point of view is worth 80 IQ points." (Wikiquote says this is from "talk at Creative Think seminar, 20 July 1982" and links to Andy Hertzfeld's notes at http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Creative_Think.txt http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story... for evidence.)

caffeine 17y ago
Sweat. Sweat is worth 80 IQ points. Hard, disciplined labor. Yeah, maybe the guy with the big swinging "g." has it easier. Mommy & daddy gave him his 80 free extra IQ points. My extra 80 points came from severe intellectual self-flagellation. So I think big swinging "g." is a wimp, because he never made anything of himself.
- kragen 17y ago
  Sweat is worth a lot more than that. It's not additive; it's multiplicative.