6 ms·

Renault will remotely lock down electric cars

63 points by praptak 13y ago

nodata 13y ago
Non-SSL mirror: http://blogs.fsfe.org.nyud.net/gerloff/2013/10/31/renault-will-remotely-lock-down-electric-cars/ http://blogs.fsfe.org.nyud.net/gerloff/2013/10/31/renault-wi...
- y0ghur7_xxx 13y ago
  Why would someone want a non-ssl version?
  - nodata 13y ago
    The nyud mirror doesn't work with ssl. The "Non-SSL" warns people of this.
  - ensignavenger 13y ago
    SSL tends to be significantly slower on satellite internet connections.
LukeWalsh 13y ago
This will be even scarier when there are no alternatives left, and the only options will be physical objects that abuse personal data. I think it will take true pioneers in other fields to extend the open source movement beyond software. With rapid prototyping and manufacturing techniques exploding, how much longer until I can submit a pull request for an open source car?
- kabdib 13y ago
  At the moment it's really difficult to print battery chemistry. You probably need real nanotech to print a spring or other item that requires complex metallurgy. I wonder about things like tires, or even seat covers. So it'll be a while.
  - spellboots 13y ago
    You can 3d print springs on even the cheapest hobbyist 3d printers these days [1]. Some 3d printed springs exceed the performance of traditional designs of the same weight [2]. Battery chemistry is indeed a different kettle of fish however. [1] http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:39963 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:39963 [2] http://www.rapidreadytech.com/2012/04/3d-printed-spring-exceeds-traditional-manufacturing/ http://www.rapidreadytech.com/2012/04/3d-printed-spring-exce...
  - praxeologist 13y ago
    Maybe it isn't that far off: http://vimeo.com/51702339 http://vimeo.com/51702339 "Imprint Energy aims to reshape the battery landscape. Currently available battery technologies limit the pace of improvement in design and functionality of portable electronic devices. Imprint Energy will address these shortcomings with its breakthrough zinc-based rechargeable battery technology, Zinc Poly™. Zinc Poly™ battery technology removes longstanding limitations on the rechargeability of zinc-based batteries and enables the production of ultrathin, flexible, high energy density rechargeable batteries for significantly lower cost and without the design limitations or safety concerns of other battery technologies." I think they say the batteries can be printed on modified textile printing equipment. I contacted them recently because I would love to use this tech if it lives up to their claims. They wouldn't give me any sort of details like how much energy is stored in one of the square inch patches they are showing though.
NickM 13y ago
I feel like this is a bit overblown. If I stop paying lease payments for my car, it will get repossessed, and rightly so. If it's not my car, then I don't have some special rights that say I should be able to do whatever I want with it without paying the owner. The "evil government" scenario is maybe a tiny bit more compelling, but really if the government is trying to quash protests then I think we have bigger problems. It doesn't matter whether you control your car if the government controls the roadways. I'm picturing the following scenario: Hacker: Haha! We have hacked around your evil non-free car software, thus preventing you from locking down the battery charging system! Now we can all drive to our protests again! Evil Government: Okay, we'll put up a roadblock. Hacker: ...oh.
- sillysaurus2 13y ago
  You've ignored the "evil hacker" scenario in which someone who doesn't like you tricks the software into locking down your car. It wouldn't be difficult, as long as their encryption is set up improperly, which it almost always is.
  - tedunangst 13y ago
    This isn't the first car that can be remotely disabled.
- pflats 13y ago
  Yup. We'll have an overblown followup the first time a car is incorrectly e-repossessed. Errors like that happen whether the company need to push a button on a web app to send a kill signal or push a button on a web app to send a ticket to a real-live repoman. Honestly, controlling for all other factors, I'd probably prefer an electronic repo man to a real one. (That said, I only ever pay for cars in cash, so I wouldn't be in this situation.)
- masklinn 13y ago
  > If I stop paying lease payments for my car, it will get repossessed That's a somewhat different situation. The Zoe is a $20000 car not a rental, you do own the useless husk after your car has been remotely bricked because you didn't renew your battery-license. In fact "license" is really what it feels like, and the Oracle-kind. With the Zoe it looks like your $20k don't actually buy a car they buy the right to a license, then you pay a license (the battery rental) on top of that, and if you don't pay for license renewal you end up with an expensive and uncomfortable shed. Plus you're beholden to Renault for both use of the car (battery contract, which is per-driven-distance and does have overage costs) and its sale (you have to transfer the battery contract to the next owner). But the license comes with free hours of support, yay! (free replacement of the battery, and roadside assistance)
tomelders 13y ago
My next car will be an electric car. My next car will not be a Renault.
idoco 13y ago
This article reads much better when you apply xkcd.com/1288 on it :) You can use this chrome extension goo.gl/mHU6XZ
thinkpad20 13y ago
Shouldn't the invisible hand take care of this? No one is forcing you to buy a Renault.
- rhizome 13y ago
  The invisible hand is not a law, but an article of faith.
gojomo 13y ago
Not so different from Tesla's software-capped (and remote-unlockable-for-a-fee) battery capacity: http://www.engadget.com/2013/04/01/tesla-model-s-axes-40kwh-battery-option/ http://www.engadget.com/2013/04/01/tesla-model-s-axes-40kwh-...
Mithaldu 13y ago
I can't wait for the first car cracktros and all the neat tricks the scene programmers will pull with car computers.
hepek 13y ago
I think the battery-on-lease makes sense, because (I've heard somewhere) they are planning on swapping batteries instead of recharging them in their official charging stations.
- hepek 13y ago
  To make that work with "owned" batteries, I would have to buy dozen batteries and pay to ship them thoughout my typical driving routes...
- yabatopia 13y ago
  Unfortunately battery swapping is dead. It was an interesting concept, but after the spectacular failure of their Israel based partner Better Place Renault made it very clear that battery swapping is no longer a valid option.
Hansi 13y ago
I don't see this an issue from the rental point of view but considering the average enterprise's ability to properly secure anything from hacking I'd beconcerned about this being hacked so I wouldn't want one of these.

63 points by praptak 13y ago

Non-SSL mirror: http://blogs.fsfe.org.nyud.net/gerloff/2013/10/31/renault-will-remotely-lock-down-electric-cars/ http://blogs.fsfe.org.nyud.net/gerloff/2013/10/31/renault-wi...

y0ghur7_xxx 13y ago
Why would someone want a non-ssl version?
- nodata 13y ago
  The nyud mirror doesn't work with ssl. The "Non-SSL" warns people of this.
- ensignavenger 13y ago
  SSL tends to be significantly slower on satellite internet connections.

LukeWalsh 13y ago

This will be even scarier when there are no alternatives left, and the only options will be physical objects that abuse personal data. I think it will take true pioneers in other fields to extend the open source movement beyond software. With rapid prototyping and manufacturing techniques exploding, how much longer until I can submit a pull request for an open source car?

kabdib 13y ago
At the moment it's really difficult to print battery chemistry. You probably need real nanotech to print a spring or other item that requires complex metallurgy. I wonder about things like tires, or even seat covers. So it'll be a while.
- spellboots 13y ago
  You can 3d print springs on even the cheapest hobbyist 3d printers these days [1]. Some 3d printed springs exceed the performance of traditional designs of the same weight [2]. Battery chemistry is indeed a different kettle of fish however. [1] http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:39963 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:39963 [2] http://www.rapidreadytech.com/2012/04/3d-printed-spring-exceeds-traditional-manufacturing/ http://www.rapidreadytech.com/2012/04/3d-printed-spring-exce...
- praxeologist 13y ago
  Maybe it isn't that far off: http://vimeo.com/51702339 http://vimeo.com/51702339 "Imprint Energy aims to reshape the battery landscape. Currently available battery technologies limit the pace of improvement in design and functionality of portable electronic devices. Imprint Energy will address these shortcomings with its breakthrough zinc-based rechargeable battery technology, Zinc Poly™. Zinc Poly™ battery technology removes longstanding limitations on the rechargeability of zinc-based batteries and enables the production of ultrathin, flexible, high energy density rechargeable batteries for significantly lower cost and without the design limitations or safety concerns of other battery technologies." I think they say the batteries can be printed on modified textile printing equipment. I contacted them recently because I would love to use this tech if it lives up to their claims. They wouldn't give me any sort of details like how much energy is stored in one of the square inch patches they are showing though.

NickM 13y ago

I feel like this is a bit overblown. If I stop paying lease payments for my car, it will get repossessed, and rightly so. If it's not my car, then I don't have some special rights that say I should be able to do whatever I want with it without paying the owner. The "evil government" scenario is maybe a tiny bit more compelling, but really if the government is trying to quash protests then I think we have bigger problems. It doesn't matter whether you control your car if the government controls the roadways. I'm picturing the following scenario: Hacker: Haha! We have hacked around your evil non-free car software, thus preventing you from locking down the battery charging system! Now we can all drive to our protests again! Evil Government: Okay, we'll put up a roadblock. Hacker: ...oh.

sillysaurus2 13y ago
You've ignored the "evil hacker" scenario in which someone who doesn't like you tricks the software into locking down your car. It wouldn't be difficult, as long as their encryption is set up improperly, which it almost always is.
- tedunangst 13y ago
  This isn't the first car that can be remotely disabled.
pflats 13y ago
Yup. We'll have an overblown followup the first time a car is incorrectly e-repossessed. Errors like that happen whether the company need to push a button on a web app to send a kill signal or push a button on a web app to send a ticket to a real-live repoman. Honestly, controlling for all other factors, I'd probably prefer an electronic repo man to a real one. (That said, I only ever pay for cars in cash, so I wouldn't be in this situation.)
masklinn 13y ago
> If I stop paying lease payments for my car, it will get repossessed That's a somewhat different situation. The Zoe is a $20000 car not a rental, you do own the useless husk after your car has been remotely bricked because you didn't renew your battery-license. In fact "license" is really what it feels like, and the Oracle-kind. With the Zoe it looks like your $20k don't actually buy a car they buy the right to a license, then you pay a license (the battery rental) on top of that, and if you don't pay for license renewal you end up with an expensive and uncomfortable shed. Plus you're beholden to Renault for both use of the car (battery contract, which is per-driven-distance and does have overage costs) and its sale (you have to transfer the battery contract to the next owner). But the license comes with free hours of support, yay! (free replacement of the battery, and roadside assistance)

tomelders 13y ago

My next car will be an electric car. My next car will not be a Renault.

idoco 13y ago

This article reads much better when you apply xkcd.com/1288 on it :) You can use this chrome extension goo.gl/mHU6XZ

thinkpad20 13y ago

Shouldn't the invisible hand take care of this? No one is forcing you to buy a Renault.

rhizome 13y ago
The invisible hand is not a law, but an article of faith.

gojomo 13y ago

Not so different from Tesla's software-capped (and remote-unlockable-for-a-fee) battery capacity: http://www.engadget.com/2013/04/01/tesla-model-s-axes-40kwh-battery-option/ http://www.engadget.com/2013/04/01/tesla-model-s-axes-40kwh-...

Mithaldu 13y ago

I can't wait for the first car cracktros and all the neat tricks the scene programmers will pull with car computers.

hepek 13y ago

I think the battery-on-lease makes sense, because (I've heard somewhere) they are planning on swapping batteries instead of recharging them in their official charging stations.

hepek 13y ago
To make that work with "owned" batteries, I would have to buy dozen batteries and pay to ship them thoughout my typical driving routes...
yabatopia 13y ago
Unfortunately battery swapping is dead. It was an interesting concept, but after the spectacular failure of their Israel based partner Better Place Renault made it very clear that battery swapping is no longer a valid option.

Hansi 13y ago

I don't see this an issue from the rental point of view but considering the average enterprise's ability to properly secure anything from hacking I'd beconcerned about this being hacked so I wouldn't want one of these.