6 ms·

A basic, sub-$1,000 3D printer that prints metal

87 points by cdvonstinkpot 13y ago

bane 13y ago
Anybody have a feel for how strong the "clays" are compared to ABS as well as the actual metals?
- na85 13y ago
  Mechanical engineer here. Metal clays have been around for a while. Physical properties depend greatly on the base metal used and the temperature and environment in which the clay is fired. Compared to "regular" metal, the clays will be significantly weaker, especially in tensile or shear loading. Not so much under compression.
  - gregpilling 13y ago
    would they exceed 5000 psi in compression? and what drives the cost up? I noticed they have a steel clay. Is that real (ish) steel and could it be made for under $5 per pound (as a bulk material)?
    - Kliment 13y ago
      The process is expensive because it's a very low volume product and it's a heterogenous mixture that needs to be stored and processed without separating, rather than an alloy. It has been possible to print with metal clay for a very long time, with every paste extrusion setup made so far, the major problem is material cost and firing. I don't expect an object made with metal clay to handle 5000psi in compression, but it might be possible with some clever geometry. The major issue with metal clay is that is behaves like clay in many ways, severely limiting geometry that can be fired without breaking. You can think of it as very high viscosity solder paste.
      - davidHartkop 13y ago
        True, I don't think anybody will be printing toaster ovens this way. The plastic/elastic properties of metal does make metal parts printed this way quite different in performance from parts printed in plastic. Not to mention the temp. ratings. Purity stamp for silver PMC after firing is 99.9%
    - na85 13y ago
      Steel clays need to be fired in an oxygen-free environment or you'll have major oxidation problems. I don't realistically see this ever becoming a thing. >5000 psi Possibly. Again, it depends on the metal you use. With the right steel or aluminum alloy I could imagine seeing something on this order.
      - davidHartkop 13y ago
        Have been working with a pottery studio that does quite a bit of reduced-firing for special types of glazes. The clays that require low-oxygen to be fired can be embedded in special types of activated charcoal & reducing agents within the kiln. We've had some excellent results with bronze, have yet to try iron & steel. The firing instructions on those clays are similar to the bronze, however.
  - bbayer 13y ago
    So what about firing process for the printer? The video don't show the finishing process. Is this heating table?
    - DanBC 13y ago
      > The device prints with a commercially available jewelry product known as "precious metal clay." This material is a pre-mixed emulsion of metal particles in a water soluble organic binder. When heated in a kiln (600˚C-900˚C) the binder burns away as the metal particles fuse together.
    - davidHartkop 13y ago
      process is the same as for firing metal clay objects you might make by hand in a jewelry studio. Let it dry, program kiln to the specs given with the clay, and fire for 2 hours.
- opendomain 13y ago
  Metal "clay" is just a binder with real metal in it. The binder helps you work the material just like clay you get at a craft store. Once you put it into a kiln and fire it, the binder burns off, leaving pure metal behind. The metal is sintered into the final form, so it it isn't as strong as poured or rolled metal. It can also form cracks like the clay from the craft store. The metal can be copper, silver, gold, steel, or bronze and the clay costs 2-3 times the base metal. Professionals use the clay to create prototypes and then send the pieces to casters to create multiple products. Source: Holly Gage http://www.hollygage.com/ http://www.hollygage.com/ helped me use metal clay to create the first CharityCoin
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
christiangenco 13y ago
This article adds little value to the story, and it's difficult to locate the indiegogo link on that page. Here's a direct link to the project: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/minimetalmaker-a-small-3d-printer-that-fabricates-with-precious-metal-clay http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/minimetalmaker-a-small-3d-...
bledfeet 13y ago
no story yet where you can print metal's gun?
- ChuckMcM 13y ago
  http://mashable.com/2013/11/11/3d-printed-metal-gun/ http://mashable.com/2013/11/11/3d-printed-metal-gun/ There are already metal printing processes which can manufacture firearms. Still expensive though. Its relatively straight forward to build a black powder musket in your garage though.
- jared314 13y ago
  That story just never made it to the front page. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6694279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6694279 (5 days ago)
- VLM 13y ago
  At this point in technology its a lot easier to make those using subtractive (traditional) machining rather than additive machining. Ask any gunsmith. You'll get into all manner of weird definition games, like the legal one for print your own is making a lower receiver, so are you cool with buying a COTS barrel and everything else but the lower? Or you want to make that stuff too, well, OK, are you cool with COTS firing pin and other very minor componenets? Or are you cool with buying plain old screws from home depot or do you insist on making those homemade too?
itsuart 13y ago
Is there printer that can print itself?
- eric_khun 13y ago
  It's the goal of the opensource RepRap project. To produce a pure self-replicating device. http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRap http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRap
  - itsuart 13y ago
    Wow. We are closer to future than I thought. Thanks for the link!
    - eric_khun 13y ago
      I also try to regroup all the 3D printers here : https://thre3d.com/category/printers https://thre3d.com/category/printers check it out, maybe you'll need one!
  - mseidl 13y ago
    I get tired of this, it's not even close to self-replicating... it can only print a few plastic joints it needs, but most of it is metal, electronics and motors that cannot be 3d printed.
    - eric_khun 13y ago
      I hope we will be able to do it soon. When we see all these awesome kickstarter projects and all these millions $ invested in R&D. I think we will reach soon another level
- ohwp 13y ago
  No, but printers can print their clone ;)
  - itsuart 13y ago
ohwp 13y ago
I don't think this will sell. You can use a cheap printer to print wax in a better resolution. And this printer also needs post processing just as the lost wax method.
- pbhjpbhj 13y ago
  Firing a kiln is far easier, and safer, than running a [home-]foundry. You can buy a kiln that plugs in the mains and sits on your desk or a small kiln that goes in your microwave oven.
- davidHartkop 13y ago
  printing in wax works great, but then you have to do lost wax: 1.attach sprues, 2.invest inplaster cast, 3. wax burn-out in kiln(which you still need), 4. centrifuge cast (with torch & crucible) 5. cast removal, 6. sprue removal (with saw, file) 7. fine clean-up (with dentist tools, fine files) 8. Surface finish. With metal clay, you print, clean up like clay greenware, fire, and polish. equipment: printer, kiln, polishing misc.
buster 13y ago
All the objects in the video look very... rough.. so i don't think i'd buy that (and to actually print metal instead of plastic would be the only reason for me to buy a 3d printer).
- davidHartkop 13y ago
  Agreed. They are rough, not bad for a prototype i built on salary of a part-time library employee ;-> The quality will certainly improve. I have demonstrated proof of concept & have clay trace widths down to 450 microns. I have been able to print mini clay pots up to 25 layers tall. Clay blend formula is current topic of R&D. The essential challenge is to extrude with thick enough clay that it does not slump, yet thin enough to fuse together as it dries. -david
VLM 13y ago
Nobody's asked how much the "ink" costs? I have a feeling this is the kind of stuff that makes inkjet ink sound cheap.
ndonnellan 13y ago
Related, from earlier this year on patents expiring: http://qz.com/106483/3d-printing-will-explode-in-2014-thanks-to-the-expiration-of-key-patents/ http://qz.com/106483/3d-printing-will-explode-in-2014-thanks...
taylorwc 13y ago
>But maybe crazy fine resolution isn’t as important for metal. I'm trying to think of any practical application for which fine resolution isn't more important for metal than polymer
danielsparks 13y ago
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/11/16/the-mini-metal-maker-an-exclusive-look-at-the-worl.aspx http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/11/16/the-mini-me...
tdawg2343 13y ago
If any of you guys are interested, there are some good discussions going on about this on Reddit. This one has been on there the longest, but it just got put on the sub reddits Technology and realtech as well. http://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/1qrnjl/the_mini_metal_maker_an_exclusive_look_at_the/ http://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/1qrnjl/the_mini_...

87 points by cdvonstinkpot 13y ago

bane 13y ago

Anybody have a feel for how strong the "clays" are compared to ABS as well as the actual metals?

na85 13y ago
Mechanical engineer here. Metal clays have been around for a while. Physical properties depend greatly on the base metal used and the temperature and environment in which the clay is fired. Compared to "regular" metal, the clays will be significantly weaker, especially in tensile or shear loading. Not so much under compression.
- gregpilling 13y ago
  would they exceed 5000 psi in compression? and what drives the cost up? I noticed they have a steel clay. Is that real (ish) steel and could it be made for under $5 per pound (as a bulk material)?
  - Kliment 13y ago
    The process is expensive because it's a very low volume product and it's a heterogenous mixture that needs to be stored and processed without separating, rather than an alloy. It has been possible to print with metal clay for a very long time, with every paste extrusion setup made so far, the major problem is material cost and firing. I don't expect an object made with metal clay to handle 5000psi in compression, but it might be possible with some clever geometry. The major issue with metal clay is that is behaves like clay in many ways, severely limiting geometry that can be fired without breaking. You can think of it as very high viscosity solder paste.
    - davidHartkop 13y ago
      True, I don't think anybody will be printing toaster ovens this way. The plastic/elastic properties of metal does make metal parts printed this way quite different in performance from parts printed in plastic. Not to mention the temp. ratings. Purity stamp for silver PMC after firing is 99.9%
  - na85 13y ago
    Steel clays need to be fired in an oxygen-free environment or you'll have major oxidation problems. I don't realistically see this ever becoming a thing. >5000 psi Possibly. Again, it depends on the metal you use. With the right steel or aluminum alloy I could imagine seeing something on this order.
    - davidHartkop 13y ago
      Have been working with a pottery studio that does quite a bit of reduced-firing for special types of glazes. The clays that require low-oxygen to be fired can be embedded in special types of activated charcoal & reducing agents within the kiln. We've had some excellent results with bronze, have yet to try iron & steel. The firing instructions on those clays are similar to the bronze, however.
- bbayer 13y ago
  So what about firing process for the printer? The video don't show the finishing process. Is this heating table?
  - DanBC 13y ago
    > The device prints with a commercially available jewelry product known as "precious metal clay." This material is a pre-mixed emulsion of metal particles in a water soluble organic binder. When heated in a kiln (600˚C-900˚C) the binder burns away as the metal particles fuse together.
  - davidHartkop 13y ago
    process is the same as for firing metal clay objects you might make by hand in a jewelry studio. Let it dry, program kiln to the specs given with the clay, and fire for 2 hours.
opendomain 13y ago
Metal "clay" is just a binder with real metal in it. The binder helps you work the material just like clay you get at a craft store. Once you put it into a kiln and fire it, the binder burns off, leaving pure metal behind. The metal is sintered into the final form, so it it isn't as strong as poured or rolled metal. It can also form cracks like the clay from the craft store. The metal can be copper, silver, gold, steel, or bronze and the clay costs 2-3 times the base metal. Professionals use the clay to create prototypes and then send the pieces to casters to create multiple products. Source: Holly Gage http://www.hollygage.com/ http://www.hollygage.com/ helped me use metal clay to create the first CharityCoin

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

christiangenco 13y ago

This article adds little value to the story, and it's difficult to locate the indiegogo link on that page. Here's a direct link to the project: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/minimetalmaker-a-small-3d-printer-that-fabricates-with-precious-metal-clay http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/minimetalmaker-a-small-3d-...

bledfeet 13y ago

no story yet where you can print metal's gun?

ChuckMcM 13y ago
http://mashable.com/2013/11/11/3d-printed-metal-gun/ http://mashable.com/2013/11/11/3d-printed-metal-gun/ There are already metal printing processes which can manufacture firearms. Still expensive though. Its relatively straight forward to build a black powder musket in your garage though.
jared314 13y ago
That story just never made it to the front page. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6694279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6694279 (5 days ago)
VLM 13y ago
At this point in technology its a lot easier to make those using subtractive (traditional) machining rather than additive machining. Ask any gunsmith. You'll get into all manner of weird definition games, like the legal one for print your own is making a lower receiver, so are you cool with buying a COTS barrel and everything else but the lower? Or you want to make that stuff too, well, OK, are you cool with COTS firing pin and other very minor componenets? Or are you cool with buying plain old screws from home depot or do you insist on making those homemade too?

itsuart 13y ago

Is there printer that can print itself?

eric_khun 13y ago
It's the goal of the opensource RepRap project. To produce a pure self-replicating device. http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRap http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRap
- itsuart 13y ago
  Wow. We are closer to future than I thought. Thanks for the link!
  - eric_khun 13y ago
    I also try to regroup all the 3D printers here : https://thre3d.com/category/printers https://thre3d.com/category/printers check it out, maybe you'll need one!
- mseidl 13y ago
  I get tired of this, it's not even close to self-replicating... it can only print a few plastic joints it needs, but most of it is metal, electronics and motors that cannot be 3d printed.
  - eric_khun 13y ago
    I hope we will be able to do it soon. When we see all these awesome kickstarter projects and all these millions $ invested in R&D. I think we will reach soon another level
ohwp 13y ago
No, but printers can print their clone ;)
- itsuart 13y ago

ohwp 13y ago

I don't think this will sell. You can use a cheap printer to print wax in a better resolution. And this printer also needs post processing just as the lost wax method.

pbhjpbhj 13y ago
Firing a kiln is far easier, and safer, than running a [home-]foundry. You can buy a kiln that plugs in the mains and sits on your desk or a small kiln that goes in your microwave oven.
davidHartkop 13y ago
printing in wax works great, but then you have to do lost wax: 1.attach sprues, 2.invest inplaster cast, 3. wax burn-out in kiln(which you still need), 4. centrifuge cast (with torch & crucible) 5. cast removal, 6. sprue removal (with saw, file) 7. fine clean-up (with dentist tools, fine files) 8. Surface finish. With metal clay, you print, clean up like clay greenware, fire, and polish. equipment: printer, kiln, polishing misc.

buster 13y ago

All the objects in the video look very... rough.. so i don't think i'd buy that (and to actually print metal instead of plastic would be the only reason for me to buy a 3d printer).

davidHartkop 13y ago
Agreed. They are rough, not bad for a prototype i built on salary of a part-time library employee ;-> The quality will certainly improve. I have demonstrated proof of concept & have clay trace widths down to 450 microns. I have been able to print mini clay pots up to 25 layers tall. Clay blend formula is current topic of R&D. The essential challenge is to extrude with thick enough clay that it does not slump, yet thin enough to fuse together as it dries. -david

VLM 13y ago

Nobody's asked how much the "ink" costs? I have a feeling this is the kind of stuff that makes inkjet ink sound cheap.

ndonnellan 13y ago

Related, from earlier this year on patents expiring: http://qz.com/106483/3d-printing-will-explode-in-2014-thanks-to-the-expiration-of-key-patents/ http://qz.com/106483/3d-printing-will-explode-in-2014-thanks...

taylorwc 13y ago

>But maybe crazy fine resolution isn’t as important for metal. I'm trying to think of any practical application for which fine resolution isn't more important for metal than polymer

danielsparks 13y ago

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/11/16/the-mini-metal-maker-an-exclusive-look-at-the-worl.aspx http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/11/16/the-mini-me...

tdawg2343 13y ago

If any of you guys are interested, there are some good discussions going on about this on Reddit. This one has been on there the longest, but it just got put on the sub reddits Technology and realtech as well. http://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/1qrnjl/the_mini_metal_maker_an_exclusive_look_at_the/ http://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/1qrnjl/the_mini_...