4 ms·

In my home I have: Nest, Sonus Playbar, Sonus Sub, 2 Wemo light switches, 2 Wemo outlets, 1 Wemo activity sensor, AppleTV, Ruku, ChromeCast, PS3, Apple Time Cap

by johnjac 13y ago

In my home I have: Nest, Sonus Playbar, Sonus Sub, 2 Wemo light switches, 2 Wemo outlets, 1 Wemo activity sensor, AppleTV, Ruku, ChromeCast, PS3, Apple Time Capsule, Apple airport, Work router for VPN, Work IP phone, Printer, Ooma home phone, 2 ipads, 1 kindle HD, and 2 iphones. I have 1 public IP address and everything works. We have an an IPv4 allocation problem, TONS of IPv4 space allocated to companies and not used. What we don't have is IPv4 usage problem, or the need for everything "on the internet" to be publicly addressable.

xhrpost 13y ago
I've seen the math done on the unused IPv4 space by some institutions. In the end, even if an organization gave up their entire /8, you get something like 1 to 2 months of extra time at best.
- LaGrange 13y ago
  I’ve almost up voted you, but, actually: link?
  - xhrpost 13y ago
    I can't remember the exact article but if you look at this link, towards the end of the IANA pool, you can see they were burning through about two /8's per month: http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xhtml?=&skey=-2 http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-addr...
    - johnjac 13y ago
      That is still allocations, not usage. If we had a public market for IPv4 addresses there would be incentive to use them like the limited resource they are.
      - xhrpost 13y ago
        I wouldn't doubt it. I suppose it comes down more to personal opinions at some point, but I'd rather see an Internet of mass availability and resources. I can start a web service from my house because I can rent a VPS (including IP) for a few $'s per month.
- arbitrage 13y ago
  Only one or two months, yes, because there's an allocation problem. Unless that's fixed (and it won't be), just giving back extra addresses will only result in them being squandered ... again.
AndrewDucker 13y ago
You have 1 public IP address and everything works because there are external servers for you to bounce things off, in order for external signals to reach the internal devices. If we want proper peer-to-peer communications to be possible, we need to avoid, where possible, the need for a routable middle-man to help out. Also, Asia Pacific has long run out of IPv4 addresses - back in 2011. There are now services starting up over there that are IPv6 only. This will spread over the next few years. IPv6 is the future. There is no point complaining that we can shuffle around a few addresses here and there to make up a bit of space.
- johnjac 13y ago
  I know how it works, but the point is it works. Let's not pretend that everyone getting Nest thermostats is a reason for IPv6. And Most applications need "man in the middle" services anyway even if everything was publicly addressable. Nest HQ needs it public servers, There is no need for my thermostat to have a public IP.
  - marcosdumay 13y ago
    > And Most applications need "man in the middle" services anyway For all instant communication (VoIP, chat, file transfer, setting your thermostat), a man in the middle schema is a hindrance. The communication where you publish, and then somebody reads data need a man in the middle. If your thermostat does not have a public IP, you must buy it as a service, and it'll never really be your property. One can live with that in a thermostat (but let's not pretend it's a good thing), just think twice before automating more of your home...
    - johnjac 13y ago
      I also need my ISP, my power company, etc. I'll never be an island. This IPv6 utopia where everything is peer2peer just isn't going to happen, there is too much value in central services.
- dec0dedab0de 13y ago
  If we want proper peer-to-peer communications to be possible, we need to avoid, where possible, the need for a routable middle-man to help out. That is the very reason many people are nervous about the switch. Right now NAT/PAT give home users reasonable security without the need for a firewall. The obvious solution is just to make cheap firewalls that can route properly, and default to blocking all incoming traffic. However, that brings up the same concern of needing some way to dynamically poke a hole through the firewall. Which brings us to UPnP, and I for one do not trust that at all, but maybe thats my tinfoil hat. I totally agree that we need to move forward with IPv6 though.
IgorPartola 13y ago
Nope. Everything does not work properly as you described. Yes, your devices can get online, but you cannot get to your devices. For example your Nest thermostat must connect to an external server to communicate with your phone when you are not at home. This is a bad thing, since it means that you are now relying on a third party to provide connectivity. Also, let's say you want to connect to your Time Capsule when you are on the go. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to connect to its public static IP address directly (assuming you set your firewall to allow such connections). Lastly, as the Internet goes IPv6 only, your IPv4 only devices will get cut off. This will happen sooner than you might imagine. Yes, there are large swatches of unused IPv4 addresses, but the demand for new allocations is much greater. Why cling to an old system just to offset its death by a few months when we can spend the effort on making the new system work better?
- johnjac 13y ago
  "IPv6 is the future and the future is NOW!" Is what has been said for years. And everyone overlooks the value that IPv4 has ala Metcalfe's Law. And that value can be further mined if we had a public market for IPv4 addresses. IPv6 is not the only solution. Let's start admitting that IPv6 offers no (or little) present day net benefits compared to the benefit of currently connecting to all of IPv4. And let's stop with the NAT booggy man argument. NAT works well, as much as any tech works and isn't perfect. And let's stop pretending that only thing stopping a peer 2 peer utopia is the lack of globally unique address. There many economic forces in play beyond that. (edit spelling fix)
  - IgorPartola 13y ago
    NAT works as well as it was designed to, but it is flawed by design. Simple things like "what is my IP" become complex thanks to it. It has it's uses, but not for consumer connections. IPv6 does provide real world benefits, not the least of which is the simplification of allocations and a huge price drop in terms of address assignments.
kalleboo 13y ago
And all of those things are wasting power, bandwidth and routing resources by continually connecting to/polling external services to see if they need to do anything. Instead of more passively listening and waiting for incoming traffic.

by johnjac 13y ago

xhrpost 13y ago

I've seen the math done on the unused IPv4 space by some institutions. In the end, even if an organization gave up their entire /8, you get something like 1 to 2 months of extra time at best.

LaGrange 13y ago
I’ve almost up voted you, but, actually: link?
- xhrpost 13y ago
  I can't remember the exact article but if you look at this link, towards the end of the IANA pool, you can see they were burning through about two /8's per month: http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xhtml?=&skey=-2 http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-addr...
  - johnjac 13y ago
    That is still allocations, not usage. If we had a public market for IPv4 addresses there would be incentive to use them like the limited resource they are.
    - xhrpost 13y ago
      I wouldn't doubt it. I suppose it comes down more to personal opinions at some point, but I'd rather see an Internet of mass availability and resources. I can start a web service from my house because I can rent a VPS (including IP) for a few $'s per month.
arbitrage 13y ago
Only one or two months, yes, because there's an allocation problem. Unless that's fixed (and it won't be), just giving back extra addresses will only result in them being squandered ... again.

AndrewDucker 13y ago

You have 1 public IP address and everything works because there are external servers for you to bounce things off, in order for external signals to reach the internal devices. If we want proper peer-to-peer communications to be possible, we need to avoid, where possible, the need for a routable middle-man to help out. Also, Asia Pacific has long run out of IPv4 addresses - back in 2011. There are now services starting up over there that are IPv6 only. This will spread over the next few years. IPv6 is the future. There is no point complaining that we can shuffle around a few addresses here and there to make up a bit of space.

johnjac 13y ago
I know how it works, but the point is it works. Let's not pretend that everyone getting Nest thermostats is a reason for IPv6. And Most applications need "man in the middle" services anyway even if everything was publicly addressable. Nest HQ needs it public servers, There is no need for my thermostat to have a public IP.
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  > And Most applications need "man in the middle" services anyway For all instant communication (VoIP, chat, file transfer, setting your thermostat), a man in the middle schema is a hindrance. The communication where you publish, and then somebody reads data need a man in the middle. If your thermostat does not have a public IP, you must buy it as a service, and it'll never really be your property. One can live with that in a thermostat (but let's not pretend it's a good thing), just think twice before automating more of your home...
  - johnjac 13y ago
    I also need my ISP, my power company, etc. I'll never be an island. This IPv6 utopia where everything is peer2peer just isn't going to happen, there is too much value in central services.
dec0dedab0de 13y ago
If we want proper peer-to-peer communications to be possible, we need to avoid, where possible, the need for a routable middle-man to help out. That is the very reason many people are nervous about the switch. Right now NAT/PAT give home users reasonable security without the need for a firewall. The obvious solution is just to make cheap firewalls that can route properly, and default to blocking all incoming traffic. However, that brings up the same concern of needing some way to dynamically poke a hole through the firewall. Which brings us to UPnP, and I for one do not trust that at all, but maybe thats my tinfoil hat. I totally agree that we need to move forward with IPv6 though.

IgorPartola 13y ago

Nope. Everything does not work properly as you described. Yes, your devices can get online, but you cannot get to your devices. For example your Nest thermostat must connect to an external server to communicate with your phone when you are not at home. This is a bad thing, since it means that you are now relying on a third party to provide connectivity. Also, let's say you want to connect to your Time Capsule when you are on the go. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to connect to its public static IP address directly (assuming you set your firewall to allow such connections). Lastly, as the Internet goes IPv6 only, your IPv4 only devices will get cut off. This will happen sooner than you might imagine. Yes, there are large swatches of unused IPv4 addresses, but the demand for new allocations is much greater. Why cling to an old system just to offset its death by a few months when we can spend the effort on making the new system work better?

johnjac 13y ago
"IPv6 is the future and the future is NOW!" Is what has been said for years. And everyone overlooks the value that IPv4 has ala Metcalfe's Law. And that value can be further mined if we had a public market for IPv4 addresses. IPv6 is not the only solution. Let's start admitting that IPv6 offers no (or little) present day net benefits compared to the benefit of currently connecting to all of IPv4. And let's stop with the NAT booggy man argument. NAT works well, as much as any tech works and isn't perfect. And let's stop pretending that only thing stopping a peer 2 peer utopia is the lack of globally unique address. There many economic forces in play beyond that. (edit spelling fix)
- IgorPartola 13y ago
  NAT works as well as it was designed to, but it is flawed by design. Simple things like "what is my IP" become complex thanks to it. It has it's uses, but not for consumer connections. IPv6 does provide real world benefits, not the least of which is the simplification of allocations and a huge price drop in terms of address assignments.

kalleboo 13y ago

And all of those things are wasting power, bandwidth and routing resources by continually connecting to/polling external services to see if they need to do anything. Instead of more passively listening and waiting for incoming traffic.