5 ms·

Kindle's DRM Rears Its Ugly Head and It Is Ugly

208 points by _pius 17y ago

chrisbolt 17y ago
More details: http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/21/kindlegate-confusion-abounds-regarding-kindle-download-policy/ http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/21/kindlegate-confusion-abo... The bottom line: * You are able to redownload your books an unlimited number of times to any specific device. * Any one time the books can be on a finite number of devices, decided by the publisher for each book. For most books this is 5 or 6 devices. * If you hit the limit, Amazon can reset it much like iTunes lets you deauthorize all computers when you hit your limit.
- jnorthrop 17y ago
  Thank you for that link! It provides an ending to the story. If you want the short version, jump to the bottom of the page in the link above to where it says "So Here Is The Bottom Line." That sums up Amazon's policy, without going through the customer service drama. Edit: Oops the parent post magically summed up the article in the time I was writing the above reply :p
- TrevorJ 17y ago
  This runs pretty much counter to the experience this guy is recounting in the original article.
  - fatdog789 17y ago
    I think the point of the other comment was that this guy's story doesn't ring true... IOW, it sounds like the guy is either making it up, or was trying to copy the ebook to more devices than authorized (i.e., friends' devices).
- pmjordan 17y ago
  While that is more reasonable, you still have to wonder about the fact that the DRM is so complicated that the customer service people don't understand it.
  - devin 17y ago
    Amen. Burying the details of such a simple policy seems like it is set up by design to confuse the confidence of the consumer. They don't want you to know that you actually own your copy.
jm4 17y ago
It's not so much a DRM issue as it is a bonehead policy and decision-making on the part of Amazon. I own a Kindle and I've never seen any notice anywhere saying I can only download my purchased items a limited number of times. I was led to believe I could re-download items whenever I needed to. The fact that this number varies by book is only more infuriating. If they want to limit the number of downloads that's fine. I understand if they don't want people using gobs of bandwidth downloading things over and over again. But let us know so we know that it's critical to back these things up! It's a good idea to back up purchases regardless, but it's easy to forget about when you're under the impression your books are safe and accessible at any time from Amazon. This policy of not disclosing (or at the very least not making conspicuous enough) the terms of a purchase needs to change. [EDIT] Looks like a false alarm. Just a misinformed customer service agent.
scscsc 17y ago
Basically, after everyone on Earth buys all available books, the only way to make extra money on books is: a) to create new books b) to create new people Option b) would not work very well for a number of reasons and option a), well, it's too difficult. Therefore go ahead and invent very smart option c) make everyone repay for the same content over and over
- Tichy 17y ago
  d) create and sell cool new ebook reader gadgets
hexis 17y ago
I'm a fairly happy Kindle owner, but the DRM is the biggest source of my dissatisfaction. I'd like to share my books with my wife (who has her own Kindle and Amazon account), but the DRM doesn't allow that. I'd like to read my books on my other devices (laptop, etc) but the DRM doesn't allow that. Of course, I knew those limitations when I got the Kindle and the books, but they are still limitations that bug me. What my Kindle experience, in contrast to the DRM-free MP3's I buy from Amazon.com, etc., is teaching me is that even having the burden of learning the particular policies of a particular DRM scheme might be too much work for me. With my MP3's, I share them with my wife, burn them to CD's for the car, listen to them on all my devices, etc and so forth. I do not put them on file-sharing networks of any kind and never would. The same would be true of books. So, ultimately, the device limits mentioned in the blog post is not even that big of a deal. Ultimately the problem is in the fact that DRMed ownership is a sort of negotiated ownership, and that by its nature makes it harder work and probably unsatisfying.
- dgallagher 17y ago
  This is a complete hunch, but I bet in a few years time the DRM on books is going to go away much like the DRM on music has recently with iTunes/Amazon MP3's. Amazon needs a hook to get publishers to trust the device. If it gains mass appeal you'll probably see the DRM fade away.
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    It's much harder. E-books don't have a huge analog loophole.
    - khafra 17y ago
      Like a photocopier/scanner?
      - JoelSutherland 17y ago
        No, not like a photocopier/scanner. A song with DRM can be played and rerecorded in real time. So ~4 minutes a song. This can also happen without human intervention. A book can be scanned in hours at best, with a human involved the whole time. (I am sure there is specialty hardware that can do this, but that isn't quite the same a a commodity PC)
anatoly 17y ago
In light of this, but also generally, it seems prudent to always strip DRM off your Kindle books and store them locally.
- DannoHung 17y ago
  I was not aware that the DRM for Kindle had been cracked, although I am not at all surprised.
  - jrockway 17y ago
    It is. Google for it.
- jrp 17y ago
  Does anyone know if you can make a local copy (or imported PDF) have all the nice features the article describes, such as page syncing?
dgallagher 17y ago
A Kindle owner myself, I've run into a few issues with the DRM being a problem, and a few other glitches. Amazon has resolved all of them, however, through firmware updates and changes on their back-end servers. 1) Bought a book which synced to my iPhone, but gave me an issue when reading it on the Kindle. Had to do a hard-reset of the Kindle and it fixed the problem. Happened a few months ago once when I got it. Issue hasn't occurred since then. 2) The auto-bookmark thing, letting you sync across devices, has been a little wonky in the past. Its gotten better as of last month. Point is, it's still a semi-beta product with a few little hiccups here and there, but Amazon is doing a good job IMHO of improving it and getting everything to the point where it transparently works.
quoderat 17y ago
Any DRM-crippled device is for chumps.
- zimbabwe 17y ago
  Not if it provides a useful service that's worth the DRM. The Kindle's worth it, as is something like Steam. I proudly use both.
  - khill 17y ago
    That's fine but then people shouldn't complain when the DRM bites you in the ass. I realize you're not complaining but that seems to be the crux of this article (and the number of comments agreeing with it).
devin 17y ago
I don't know what the surprise is. These are pretty widely known limitations of the Kindle.
cabalamat 17y ago
The whole point of DRM is to restrict what the customer can do with digital ciontent they've bought. It therefore follows that if you're in the habit of buying DRM-crippled products, sooner or later you're likely to get biten. The solution to this is very simple: Just say no to DRM.
mjuyhjui 17y ago
It's your own fault for not having your lawyer check the EULA for every book you buy on Amazon. sure it adds a couple of $100 to each book but it's the only way to be sure (well that or taking off and nuking Amazon from orbit)
Create 17y ago
When someone buys a book, they are also buying the right to resell that book, to loan it out, or to even give it away if they want. Everyone understands this. Jeff Bezos, Open letter to Author’s Guild, 2002 You may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content. In addition, you may not, and you will not encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, bypass, modify, defeat or circumvent security features that protect the Digital Content. Amazon, Kindle Terms of Service, 2007 http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/11/19/the-future-of-reading http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/11/19/the-future-of-re... http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
- danw 17y ago
  Well at least he's trying to persuade the industry to change and become more open. They're already selling some kindle books at a loss because publishers want to charge Amazon the same price for an ebook as a physical one.
kenver 17y ago
Once again, and this story is yet another example, poorly implemented DRM frustrates and alienates legitimate users, and doesn't do anything to stop a determined pirate who will almost always find a way to overcome the DRM. The best DRM I've ever experienced is Steam, it takes away your ability to resell games, but gives you quite a lot of features in return. In fact until it was pointed out to me on HN some time ago, I didn't even notice that it was a form of DRM because it never gets in my way.
- jemmons 17y ago
  It's also an example of people who don't bother to search for the whole truth before complaining about (what turns out to be) an imagined slight... But yeah.
jemmons 17y ago
This article contains inaccurate information! Ignore it and read the author's followup at http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/21/kindlegate-confusion-abounds-regarding-kindle-download-policy/ http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/21/kindlegate-confusion-abo...

208 points by _pius 17y ago

More details: http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/21/kindlegate-confusion-abounds-regarding-kindle-download-policy/ http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/21/kindlegate-confusion-abo... The bottom line: * You are able to redownload your books an unlimited number of times to any specific device. * Any one time the books can be on a finite number of devices, decided by the publisher for each book. For most books this is 5 or 6 devices. * If you hit the limit, Amazon can reset it much like iTunes lets you deauthorize all computers when you hit your limit.

jnorthrop 17y ago
Thank you for that link! It provides an ending to the story. If you want the short version, jump to the bottom of the page in the link above to where it says "So Here Is The Bottom Line." That sums up Amazon's policy, without going through the customer service drama. Edit: Oops the parent post magically summed up the article in the time I was writing the above reply :p
TrevorJ 17y ago
This runs pretty much counter to the experience this guy is recounting in the original article.
- fatdog789 17y ago
  I think the point of the other comment was that this guy's story doesn't ring true... IOW, it sounds like the guy is either making it up, or was trying to copy the ebook to more devices than authorized (i.e., friends' devices).
pmjordan 17y ago
While that is more reasonable, you still have to wonder about the fact that the DRM is so complicated that the customer service people don't understand it.
- devin 17y ago
  Amen. Burying the details of such a simple policy seems like it is set up by design to confuse the confidence of the consumer. They don't want you to know that you actually own your copy.

jm4 17y ago

It's not so much a DRM issue as it is a bonehead policy and decision-making on the part of Amazon. I own a Kindle and I've never seen any notice anywhere saying I can only download my purchased items a limited number of times. I was led to believe I could re-download items whenever I needed to. The fact that this number varies by book is only more infuriating. If they want to limit the number of downloads that's fine. I understand if they don't want people using gobs of bandwidth downloading things over and over again. But let us know so we know that it's critical to back these things up! It's a good idea to back up purchases regardless, but it's easy to forget about when you're under the impression your books are safe and accessible at any time from Amazon. This policy of not disclosing (or at the very least not making conspicuous enough) the terms of a purchase needs to change. [EDIT] Looks like a false alarm. Just a misinformed customer service agent.

scscsc 17y ago

Basically, after everyone on Earth buys all available books, the only way to make extra money on books is: a) to create new books b) to create new people Option b) would not work very well for a number of reasons and option a), well, it's too difficult. Therefore go ahead and invent very smart option c) make everyone repay for the same content over and over

Tichy 17y ago
d) create and sell cool new ebook reader gadgets

hexis 17y ago

I'm a fairly happy Kindle owner, but the DRM is the biggest source of my dissatisfaction. I'd like to share my books with my wife (who has her own Kindle and Amazon account), but the DRM doesn't allow that. I'd like to read my books on my other devices (laptop, etc) but the DRM doesn't allow that. Of course, I knew those limitations when I got the Kindle and the books, but they are still limitations that bug me. What my Kindle experience, in contrast to the DRM-free MP3's I buy from Amazon.com, etc., is teaching me is that even having the burden of learning the particular policies of a particular DRM scheme might be too much work for me. With my MP3's, I share them with my wife, burn them to CD's for the car, listen to them on all my devices, etc and so forth. I do not put them on file-sharing networks of any kind and never would. The same would be true of books. So, ultimately, the device limits mentioned in the blog post is not even that big of a deal. Ultimately the problem is in the fact that DRMed ownership is a sort of negotiated ownership, and that by its nature makes it harder work and probably unsatisfying.

dgallagher 17y ago
This is a complete hunch, but I bet in a few years time the DRM on books is going to go away much like the DRM on music has recently with iTunes/Amazon MP3's. Amazon needs a hook to get publishers to trust the device. If it gains mass appeal you'll probably see the DRM fade away.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  It's much harder. E-books don't have a huge analog loophole.
  - khafra 17y ago
    Like a photocopier/scanner?
    - JoelSutherland 17y ago
      No, not like a photocopier/scanner. A song with DRM can be played and rerecorded in real time. So ~4 minutes a song. This can also happen without human intervention. A book can be scanned in hours at best, with a human involved the whole time. (I am sure there is specialty hardware that can do this, but that isn't quite the same a a commodity PC)

anatoly 17y ago

In light of this, but also generally, it seems prudent to always strip DRM off your Kindle books and store them locally.

DannoHung 17y ago
I was not aware that the DRM for Kindle had been cracked, although I am not at all surprised.
- jrockway 17y ago
  It is. Google for it.
jrp 17y ago
Does anyone know if you can make a local copy (or imported PDF) have all the nice features the article describes, such as page syncing?

dgallagher 17y ago

A Kindle owner myself, I've run into a few issues with the DRM being a problem, and a few other glitches. Amazon has resolved all of them, however, through firmware updates and changes on their back-end servers. 1) Bought a book which synced to my iPhone, but gave me an issue when reading it on the Kindle. Had to do a hard-reset of the Kindle and it fixed the problem. Happened a few months ago once when I got it. Issue hasn't occurred since then. 2) The auto-bookmark thing, letting you sync across devices, has been a little wonky in the past. Its gotten better as of last month. Point is, it's still a semi-beta product with a few little hiccups here and there, but Amazon is doing a good job IMHO of improving it and getting everything to the point where it transparently works.

quoderat 17y ago

Any DRM-crippled device is for chumps.

zimbabwe 17y ago
Not if it provides a useful service that's worth the DRM. The Kindle's worth it, as is something like Steam. I proudly use both.
- khill 17y ago
  That's fine but then people shouldn't complain when the DRM bites you in the ass. I realize you're not complaining but that seems to be the crux of this article (and the number of comments agreeing with it).

devin 17y ago

I don't know what the surprise is. These are pretty widely known limitations of the Kindle.

cabalamat 17y ago

The whole point of DRM is to restrict what the customer can do with digital ciontent they've bought. It therefore follows that if you're in the habit of buying DRM-crippled products, sooner or later you're likely to get biten. The solution to this is very simple: Just say no to DRM.

mjuyhjui 17y ago

It's your own fault for not having your lawyer check the EULA for every book you buy on Amazon. sure it adds a couple of $100 to each book but it's the only way to be sure (well that or taking off and nuking Amazon from orbit)

Create 17y ago

When someone buys a book, they are also buying the right to resell that book, to loan it out, or to even give it away if they want. Everyone understands this. Jeff Bezos, Open letter to Author’s Guild, 2002 You may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content. In addition, you may not, and you will not encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, bypass, modify, defeat or circumvent security features that protect the Digital Content. Amazon, Kindle Terms of Service, 2007 http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/11/19/the-future-of-reading http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/11/19/the-future-of-re... http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

danw 17y ago
Well at least he's trying to persuade the industry to change and become more open. They're already selling some kindle books at a loss because publishers want to charge Amazon the same price for an ebook as a physical one.

kenver 17y ago

Once again, and this story is yet another example, poorly implemented DRM frustrates and alienates legitimate users, and doesn't do anything to stop a determined pirate who will almost always find a way to overcome the DRM. The best DRM I've ever experienced is Steam, it takes away your ability to resell games, but gives you quite a lot of features in return. In fact until it was pointed out to me on HN some time ago, I didn't even notice that it was a form of DRM because it never gets in my way.

jemmons 17y ago
It's also an example of people who don't bother to search for the whole truth before complaining about (what turns out to be) an imagined slight... But yeah.

jemmons 17y ago

This article contains inaccurate information! Ignore it and read the author's followup at http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/21/kindlegate-confusion-abounds-regarding-kindle-download-policy/ http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/21/kindlegate-confusion-abo...