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My experience hiring a developer on Elance to build my first iPhone app

112 points by naren87 13y ago

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- deleted 13y ago
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krrishd 13y ago
Things like this about some developers just piss me off. I'm a freelancer, and really like the idea of a platform like Elance that could easily connect me to clients, but all the good clients stay away becuase of people like that.
- zabramow 13y ago
  As a non-technical founder who had to search far and wide till we found the right freelancer (and then ultimately a full timer), I've wanted to build a site that connected development shops with clients. Interesting to see how much can go wrong in what should be a very simple model.
  - dreamfactory 13y ago
    Aligning business reqs and technical implementation is a harder and more expert job than the development part. These sites assume it doesn't exist and leave a client and dev to scrap it out in a zero sum game.
    - mamcx 13y ago
      Yep, is a big part of the problem. This sites don't make clear that is necessary do some specs, mockups, talk about the project, how do feedback, how manage it when it start, what to do about bugs, how report it, etc. When freelancing, is not as simply as just coding, is project management + customer engaging + quality assurance + researching + coding and the most important of all: Mind reading, and guessing (right!) what the hell the customer want. After +17 years I never ever meet a gig where it become easier. And all that baggage cost. Is time consuming. Is impossible to do it right the first time (and everyone expect a quote on time and cost, and hate if is by the hour!).
- mkramlich 13y ago
  but the reverse is also true. many/most good developers stay away from it because of the bad/cheapskate clients that are rife there. "I have a great idea that will make me millions!!! just need a developer. oh but my budget is tiny, so sorry! and add this and this and this and I need it by next Tuesday." case of a market-for-lemons, plus race-to-bottom
  - chii 13y ago
    The client, in that case, should've just had a profit sharing offer, instead of paying a measly some, for the off chance that the app takes off (thus screwing the dev). If the great idea is gonna make millions (for real), the dev would not hesitate to accept the profit sharing option.
    - mkramlich 13y ago
      agreed that's more fair, if the client can only offer low pay, they need to at least give them a piece of the potential equity upside. though in reality, in the general case, all other things being equal, that equity share will probably be worthless. plus in this day and age it's never been easier for a developer to purse a wide range of business venture ideas, and retain full ownership and equity upside. "Gee, I can work on your Big Idea for small pay and 1-10% equity, or, I can work for somebody else for Big Pay and, disconnected from that, either on the side or afterward (during "bench time" or sabbaticals) work on my own thing for ~100% equity." Choices, choices.
rfnslyr 13y ago
There should really be a website where each worker has been interviewed by some sort of staff, where bad reviews are taken seriously and resolved. Not a willy nilly battlefield of near scammers.
- tejay 13y ago
  GroupTalent (http://grouptalent.com http://grouptalent.com) maintains some personal checks on their talent pool. Not sure if they'd be into smaller applications like OP's, though.
  - mamcx 13y ago
    Something like this for remote work exist?
- rhc2104 13y ago
  The closest site to what you're talking about is ooomf.com (They don't have reviews, though) I'm building a site (CodeDoor) which uses open source contributions as the sole barrier to entry- a nice thing about that is that it self-selects for technical clients.
- pekk 13y ago
  But not for people who collect code and then find an excuse not to pay, that isn't necessary at all.
- dreamfactory 13y ago
  That's a big part of what you're paying an agency for. The whole point of elance is diy management.
jmduke 13y ago
I'd hesitate to blame the author for the issues that arose with the project, as the larger issues lie with Elance (et al)'s feedback mechanism. It should be reasonable to assume that someone with, say, a 4.8/5 rating is a sterling developer, but instead feedback gets perverted into a form of currency to be exploited as opposed to a canonical source of information -- just like what happened with eBay. I think a possible solution for this issue would be to include third-party anonymous auditing: get someone with domain expertise to review the spec, the final product, and communications (without being given the personal details of the two other parties, of course) and give an honest rating of both sides. Obviously, this has scaling issues, but I think a decent amount of people would be willing to pay a premium for a better value proxy.
- cpayne 13y ago
  (Like everyone else) Elance are out to make a dollar. The system isn't perfect, but show me a business that is. I think it was HIGHLY optimistic to have a budget of less than $1,000 and to think things would be pain free. It would have been interesting if the author had added what he had expected. The article is highly factual (this happened, and then this and then this...) but he didn't add any value judgment. What was his expectations? Was it a red flag that no one on Reddit wanted to touch it? Would he do it again? If he had twice the budget, would that have changed things? etc. etc.
- vassvdm 13y ago
  I think you're on to something. Ratings on sites like Elance are broken. Clients feel compelled to give 5 star feedback to freelancers, sometimes just to get them off their back. This basically means that you can't look at a reputation score to tell you how good the freelancer actually is. I like the idea of a third-party anonymous person doing an audit. That person would need to have access to all the relevant files though, and have the right skills to judge the freelancer's work. Even the prospect of being audited could be a deterrent to the kind of behavior we saw in this case, which means that randomly auditing one out of every x gigs could be enough.
  - chii 13y ago
pyalot2 13y ago
Learning to do it yourself is the best investment you can make. However, don't loose sight of the fact that for serious software development you'll need to hire somebody if you're not a professional programmer (i.e. somebody who writes code for a living, every day, for the last couple of years).
scottydelta 13y ago
But it would be very unwise to consider all the developers to be same just because of a bad experience. I have worked as a freelancer on elance and I have never asked for a 5-star on review or for money upfront.
- jawngee 13y ago
  > or for money upfront You must not be doing this for very long. I don't work with clients who don't pay 50% upfront for fixed fee projects. And those types of projects I try to avoid.
  - scottydelta 13y ago
    but isnt 50% upfront too much? If I were a client, I would never pay 50% upfront because what If the developer is not capable of delivering the product.
    - collyw 13y ago
      If I were a developer why would I spend a number of hours developing,m not knowing if the client would pay?
kclay 13y ago
One thing I have learned about using Elance and other bidding type sites from time to time with work is low,is that most project posters determine the bid solely based on price. Now I understand this but, if you do that then you run into this type of game with contractors. Most non-developer don't understand when someone that is well qualified to handle your project they will make sure there is enough conversations before hand to make sure that all specs and milestones( yes I know you can't know all but just for argument's sake) are fully understood by both parties. The first red flag should of been an iOS app for $800. I don't do iOS development but I for sure you can't get decent developer for $800. Red flag #2 was when the client felt indebted to the developer for doing a fix. To me it looks like he is just trying to nickel and dime for everything little change. Maybe that how some people work but from my personal experience as a developer and from contracting from sites like these I've never had an good contractor do this, now that's not to say I haven't had this happen, I have. Last one was when he said he would hold the sources until a 5 star review, this made me laugh. Now I can see for a review, in some eyes a project isn't complete until a review about one's work has been done, so I can understand that. But denying source until he gets a 5 star that's just absurd. If it was me I would of first made sure all of this convo happened in Elance workroom and then get Elance into it (yeah it would take longer for them to resolve but he would get his files) and then right a lengthy review for this developer to make sure that no one else has this problem. I guess that's just what you have to deal with when using bidding sites. I'm glad he go his app approved but the old saying still stands: You get what you pay for
- macspoofing 13y ago
  > To me it looks like he is just trying to nickel and dime for everything little change. For $800 you bet your ass the developer will nickel-and-dime. After all, he was nickel-and-dimed.
  - eli 13y ago
    By whom? The system? The developer bears at least a little responsibility for submitting a bid that is too low to cover successfully completing the project.
cpayne 13y ago
There's a reason lawyers (generally) don't do fixed price. Or if they do, you are going to pay more for time and materials. I see articles all the time and just wonder, what did you expect? You can add whatever clauses you like (won't pay until xyz etc) but honestly- 1. There's no repeat business. They know your $800 is your entire budget. 2. I've been hassled before for a 5 star rating. The author has already spent 75%. It's worth the risk of holding the source code hostage. If you were a freelancer, would you do any different?
trevmckendrick 13y ago
I've worked with a lot of Elancers in a variety of tasks. The key to managing them is setting clear expectations upfront and then sticking to them. As soon as you release that first payment despite the milestone not being 100% finished you've given them permission to ignore all other deadlines. What's worked best for me is to make 50% of the contract payable after the app has been approved by Apple, but funding the entire project up front. That way the Elancer knows you're serious about payment, but you don't "lose" any money until the app is actually in the App Store.
- mkramlich 13y ago
  the root problem is fixed scope/price contracts. almost always one party or another, or a mix of both, ends up getting screwed. I prefer to pay-for-time, then both sides evaluate results/experience continually, with each side able to "fire fast" or "up the anty" if/when that party decides.
  - chii 13y ago
    pay for time is just as "bad" to the client as fixed cost for the dev. The root problem isn't with the way the payment is made, but with the way one party's expectation does not match reality (whether it's the dev's or the client's). Fix that, and any payment model will work.
    - mkramlich 13y ago
      I agree with you that that model can go bad too. I disagree with you on both models being equally bad, or prone to going bad at the same statistically rate. In my experience, as well as the reported experience of many senior programmers/consultants/freelancers/ISV's I trust, the pay-for-time (honestly worked, of course) is the model that's the least likely to explode on either party. And, surprise surprise, that's also closer to how the traditional direct employment (FT, PT, salary, wage, whatever) model also works. And in general terms, both sides always have the "escape hatch" of being able to fire the other party (speaking in general, with the caveat of arbitrary laws per jurisdiction, blah blah blah.) But in general, if one party isn't happy, they can vote with their feet. That's always true in life, in the general case. But paying for hours/days means the worker is paid in proportion to how much work is involved, whether planned or surprises along the way. And the pay-per-time rate allows the worker to set a value that reflects the quality of his work, his productivity, or his rarity in the marketplace, or total demand for his time, etc. Win and win. Fixed price, fixed scope is like... an unstable equilibrium. Trying to balance a chainsaw on your pinky finger. It can work out just fine. But that's not the way to bet, and to be avoided if you'd like to retain all your body parts.
frank_boyd 13y ago
> really make me wonder how much faith we can put in the reviews on Elance Pretty much the same faith we can put in LinkedIn recommendations, I suppose.
Iftheshoefits 13y ago
Once the author "learns to do it [him]self," maybe he'll appreciate how complicated even "simple" iOS apps are to develop, and maybe he'll realize his expectations were a bit unreasonable. Also, this author's post is exactly why I will never ever work on Elance again. The clients have expectations far out of line with what they're willing to pay.
- rickyc091 13y ago
  I feel like that's the case with doing consultant work in general.
  - mkramlich 13y ago
    it's more pronounced with clients that are less sophisticated, smaller, more mom-and-pop, "I had this great idea!!!! but a very small budget" types. avoid them, and you'll do better
    - ryandoom 13y ago
      Agreed. Consulting and working with individuals to develop their 'baby' is extremely difficult. Majority of the time their expectation is that coding is fancy typing and changes take seconds not hours. As a developer I would suggest building in a reasonable monthly fee for X months for support. It's unrealistic to assume apps are going to meet customers expectations 100% of the time. Discussing this and setting a budget for after 'completion' helps a ton. The poster and most individuals expect to pay a one time fee and start making tons of money on their idea without reinvestment. As developers we need to help educate clients. But, individuals are hard, we never do it unless they are well funded. Not just for their app but for their marketing and overall initiatives.
      - mkramlich 13y ago
        > Majority of the time their expectation is that coding is fancy typing and changes take seconds not hours. THIS. spoken like from direct experience. that's a definite pattern I've seen with some kinds of clients. "How long will it take for you to type up these features?" They have no clue as to how complex software is, all the moving parts, the interactions, the hidden bugs and quirks, lurking complications, constraints, trade-offs, under-documented or mis-documented behaviors, etc.
gexla 13y ago
I don't care where you live in this world. The cost of living is going up everywhere. If you pick up a cheap developer, expect the person is going to be hitting you up for payments regularly. At this rate, the person can't really save to get ahead, he is likely struggling from one payment to the next. Getting screwed over would probably be devastating to him, though I imagine he was more concerned about quick payments than getting screwed over. If you have someone doing cheap work and doing well, keep the payments flowing. If you are happy, then make the developer happy as well.
- mkramlich 13y ago
  > If you have someone doing cheap work and doing well, keep the payments flowing. If you are happy, then make the developer happy as well. THIS x 10
woodylondon 13y ago
This was an interesting read, and had very similar experiences. My current problem is an IOS developer who I have used on 2 projects without issue. I then started a new project 3 months ago which should have taken 2-3 weeks max. So far his mother, son have both died. He lost his house. His computer broke, and then another one. Finally his son died again!? Still nothing has been sent, and he has had 50% of the money. I suspect the problem is that he has taken on too much work. I have paid him well in the past, been fair with spec changes etc. He saw me an easy touch to screw over on the 3rd project. No plans to work with him again. It's not the money that pisses me off, its the wasted time!
- mkramlich 13y ago
  Without knowing the specifics or the absolute truth about the situation on his side, I can say it's possible those things really did happen. And consider that in the alternative scenario where you had to have him on payroll as a FT/direct employee, you'd be paying regular paychecks + benefits to him this entire time. You're lucky to have the option of engaging someone only as a temporary "disposable" contractor. And for every scenario where the client appears to have been "screwed" by the developer, I guarantee you the reverse scenario has happened. Possibly even with that same guy, with the shoe on the other foot. It's truly a jungle out there.
- objclxt 13y ago
  > Still nothing has been sent, and he has had 50% of the money. ...but you have a contract that presumably sets out the delivery, and how you resolve disputes, and what happens if somebody delivers late, presumably. And if you don't have a contract...well, there's a lesson there!
AlexeyBrin 13y ago
There was once a website were you, as a buyer, were assured of having complete rights over the source code and the binary of an application for which you hired a developer. Also, the developer was assured the money for the application are in an escrow account once the project was awarded and he will be paid if he can deliver in time. This site was RentACoder, later renamed vWorker. There was no way for a coder to be able to keep the source code hostage until a 5 star review was given or for the buyer to delay the payment. Today, vWorker doesn't exist anymore, it was bought by Freelancer. On Freelancer there is no guarantee that you will get your final product (as a buyer) or that you will be paid (as a coder). Actually, a buyer can post a project, pay you for an application, get the application and than request a charge back from the credit card company :). Freelancer has no inclination to protect the buyer or the coder.
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  It's been a while since I visited elance, but I think that's exactly how it is supposed to work. Freelancer.com is a weird experiment in gamification, feels like a scam from the start.
rubiquity 13y ago
I feel like sites like Elance just foster bad client-developer relationships from the get go. With everything being so prix fixe it sets aside the #1 attribute of software development - uncertainty. From reading this post it sounds like everything was honki-dori until the client came back with changes. Changes equate to more development which equates to more money. Clients need to understand the uncertain parts of software development better and paying up front sites like Elance and others just don't support that.
mamcx 13y ago
This kind of sites have the problem (big one IMHO) that the projects descriptions are almost useless as specs, and a lot of developers don't know how build that from the customers (and rarely a customer know what to say, ask or give). I wish that when a customer send a project, somebody review it and check if the assumptions of the customer are on line with reality, or can do some consulting to properly scope the projects before div in. Probably having projects manager in the side (not in the middle!)?
EGF 13y ago
My starting conversation for someone looking for outside help on a project is always; Price, Quality, Time - pick two. This helps guide the conversation as there is usually some limiting factor to the "job" whether its budget, when they need it, or how good the quality has to be.
- mkramlich 13y ago
  Also I've seen a pretty high correlation (not 100%, but high) with clients that push down on pay... but ALSO have very high expectations on quality and time-to-market. It seems paradoxical, but life doesn't prevent paradoxical idiocy from existing. Speaking in general terms, the clients that offer/agree to higher pay tend to be less demanding, more flexible, more realistic, more appreciative and with more repeating/recurring business (rather than one-off speculative "I have this great idea, just need a duh-veloper!" situations) I'm getting very close to a point where I might start "shit testing" or filtering potential clients by asking for, say, $1000 upfront, just to have an exploratory talk with me on the phone. Figuring that if they cannot even do that, physically, or are not willing to do that, then they are probably not the kind of client I want to take on anyway, either because they don't have the budget, or, are not sophisticated enough. (They don't understand market conditions, the risks involved to developers, the money cost of time, the time cost of money, the nature of reciprocity, or what their alternative cost would be if they had to hire a software engineer as a FT/direct employee, pay full benefits, paid time off, insurance, etc.)
- rpwilcox 13y ago
  > Price, Quality, Time Please don't use those terms. There are better ones: Price, Scope (size) and Time. The problem with the phrasing "Price, Quality, Time" is that nobody wants to sacrifice on quality. Everyone wants a app that doesn't crash -- the client, the end users, and the developer. Yes, yes, technical debt is a quality concern, but as long as the app runs the client doesn't care in the moment that there's copy/pasted code everywhere and future changes will be "interesting". It's hard to sell "but if I take an extra half day to make this change future improvements will be easier", at least not in tight projects. But Scope, scope can start negotiation with clients. "Ok, you do know this new control you want will probably take something like 10 hours to write, do you really want it or can you make do with a default one?" If a client drops a fixed bid project on me with a dictated time deadline, sure as anything I'm going to take control of the scope side of the project triangle.
Untit1ed 13y ago
I can see why he's annoyed, but at the end of the day he's got a reasonably well-reviewed app for the cost of $800 and a few hours arguing over email... still a pretty good deal.
cmbaus 13y ago
I've outsourced some development on oDesk, and it worked out ok. I even hired one of the developers full-time for a different project. What I did was start with a small project, and verify the developer's work. This is much easier to do if you are technical. If you are non-technical, I think these sites are worthless. There is no way to know what you are getting. Edit: I should say they are worthless for technical work. I've also hired a non-technical assistant who was in the US and that worked out great, and I'm sure other non-technical people could do the same.
mkramlich 13y ago
> I had virtually zero budget at this moment I strongly suspected that I knew how it would turn out > and since it was already late and this made it a slam dunk other tells (statistically speaking): -- the "I had this great idea!!! just needed a developer" factor -- looking for programmers on Elance/Guru, etc.
- georgiecasey 13y ago
  > > I had virtually zero budget > at this moment I strongly suspected that I knew how it would turn out I was sure the app would never get as far as the app store. but it did, and all for $800. he got very lucky.
benmorris 13y ago
I'm not really surprised to read this synopsis of hiring on Elance. I've done a lot of hiring on there, but have found out you can leave no room for guessing. No matter what you want done needs to be speced out meticulously and attached to the project. It has been said, but you absolutely get what you pay for. Again, for the price this sort of nagging for payouts of pretty typical I've found also, especially for low paying jobs. I must say contrary to the author I would be leaving a negative review for this developer. There is no excuse to hold the source code hostage for a 5 star review. Tacky and unprofessional
JoseVigil 13y ago
Mike experience did not look that bad after all, ultimately with some patience on his side he has an app up on the store. Either on the side of the client or on the developer there is a very hard work to do in order to accomplish a simple app. I think Mike underestimates the challenge and I wish him good luck on the development side, a new trip is waiting for him.
jawngee 13y ago
This enrages me. I feel horrible for the developer. First, my day rate as a professional full-time iOS dev is higher than what he paid for the entire project. Granted, I've been writing software for almost 20 years now, the last six strictly Cocoa and iOS, and I live in NYC. But even then, all I can tell him is that he got what he paid for. Second, if a client is going to withhold final payment based on Apple acceptance, there is no way I would work for them. Specially for some dumb app like this. But the part that really irks me is the last bit about "doing it yourself next time". Good luck with that. I would love to be around the moment you have the epiphany about how much you got for how little you spent and what an asshole you are about whining about it.
- aferreira 13y ago
  I find it hilarious that people think it's just gathering some pieces, applying glue and add pretty graphics.
  - jawngee 13y ago
    "Hey we have an app we want you to build, it should be super simple and take you no time at all" says the guy who has written code exactly never, but is a pro with powerpoint.
    - scarlson 13y ago
      Getting a functional app within 2 days, and him thinking he's going to be able to "learn to code" and have that kind of output is bonkers. I've been coding half my life, and it will still take me weeks to put together small stuff that I obsess over every little detail on.
- ye 13y ago
  > Second, if a client is going to withhold final payment based on Apple acceptance, there is no way I would work for them But that was the requirement of the project, which the developer agreed to. What enraged me is the behaviour of the developer.
6d0debc071 13y ago
Specs being more or less fixed is fairly standard for any creative industry. Otherwise you end up doing many multiples of the work you originally signed on for for people who are continually changing their mind or having one extra little thing. You wouldn't say to a builder who came to your house to fix the roof "Oh, and while you're up there, the chimney needs doing." And not expect to pay for it. How you handle that varies, I don't work on a fixed fee - I give estimates but it costs what it costs, so in many ways it's easier for me. Still, I give people three goes to change their minds about the graphical assets and placement of interface elements, within the specs we've worked out of course - and then if they want to change it we work something new out or we go ahead with one of the prototypes they like; I'm not going to be messed around by someone who can't make up their mind, there are other clients. The way I look at it my initial contract is to make up to three rough versions of the thing for them - and if we're working well together we take it from there, or if we're not we walk away from the thing. # Other points - Hired someone who may have had flawed English skills, (from reading the back and forth) Paid $800 and expected top notch service. Unclear milestones. Hired someone in a dramatically different time zone (always a bit of a pain.)
aferreira 13y ago
What's that old saying? You get what you pay for. What did you expect for $800? "Oh but it's a simple app" - Well, so is the electrical grid! I delivers power to your house, simple right? Oh wait. NOPE. Additionally, I do agree that once you've accepted to pay the final fees once development ends, you should pay them then and not when the app is 'accepted onto app store and 10 days have passed so users can report bugs'. What on earth were you thinking? That's not the developer's problem. That's YOUR problem. I find it nice that he even offered to fix any bugs found on the review process or after the store's release, most developers could charge you extra for this. Please get this right once and for all: You pay consultants / freelancers a combination of time spent + expertise. Never for a finished product.
- EpicEng 13y ago
  I agree with you, but this is a bit much: "Oh but it's a simple app" - Well, so is the electrical grid! I delivers power to your house, simple right? Oh wait. NOPE. Really? Comparing a trivial iOS app to the electrical infrastructure, a huge engineering task (sorry, Santa's List iOS isn't engineering). Please.
  - aferreira 13y ago
    Hey I can blow things out of proportion and create unreasonable expectations just like the author does :)
    - EpicEng 13y ago
      ...fair enough.
- avalaunch 13y ago
  Actually you pay them for whatever you agree to pay them for. As a freelancer, I'm able to accept or reject any proposal as I see fit. If someone wants me to shoulder the risk of an app being approved by Apple, that's fine with me. Much like an insurance policy, I'll calculate in the risk and charge them accordingly.
logn 13y ago
An app for Santa to track gifts and children's associated good deeds to earn them. And this guy is quibbling over being asked to leave a developer a 5-star review and $800. Sure, you shouldn't hassle clients for good reviews, but maybe you also shouldn't expect people half way around the world to have perfect business etiquette. Besides, every time I go to a store or call a customer service line, plenty of Americans ask me to fill out a review and also often ask if I'm totally happy with their service. This isn't much different.
- ye 13y ago
  What if he doesn't want to leave a 5-star review? He paid for the project, which included the source code. The source code needs to be delivered.
  - logn 13y ago
    If the client refused to leave a 5-star review, I'd speculate the developer would improve the project such that he would get a 5-star review. I think it's his way of saying, "we're not done until you're totally satisfied". Of course, the developer went about it in a rude way, but that's exactly what you can expect hiring someone from a totally different culture than ours whom you've never met. Basically this entrepreneur is complaining that being an engineering manager isn't 100% easy. And then he concludes by saying that being an engineer is totally do-able and probably easier than managing. lol
    - ye 13y ago
      I wouldn't leave a 5-star review simply because the developer requested to get paid earlier than the agreed upon schedule. If he doesn't honor what he agreed to, he doesn't deserve 5 stars.
  - chii 13y ago
    I m sure the dev knows that as soon as he gets anything less than a 5 star review, his livelyhood might be destroyed. Withholding the source is one way to pressure clients to give good reviews. Whether this is justified or not, the $800 isn't worth a less-than-5-star review. If the client is a dick and leaves a crap review even if their specs were satisfied, what's the dev to do? The problem is actually the review system - there is no auto-correcting feedback loop.
gameguy43 13y ago
I was hoping this would happen when I read the comments on this post on /r/entrepreneur. Compare the comments there and the comments here. Fascinating case study: http://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/1pp2bg/i_hired_a_developer_in_china_via_elance_to_build/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/1pp2bg/i_hired...
joshuaellinger 13y ago
I was considering trying Elance until I read this. Not I am thinking I cannot afford it because of the demand it would place on my time to manage and because I can't trust that a 5 star rating correlates with quality. Sheesh... I wouldn't have been willing to have that argument for $800 much less write any code.
pekk 13y ago
What a scam. If Apple doesn't like your project, you don't have to pay the developer. No risk for you.
shearnie 13y ago
Would setting up a version control repository for the developer that you can access avoid the problem being held at ransom for the five star review?
- sneak 13y ago
  The output from all devs (on sane projects) is github. A better solution would be to not falsify five star reviews when people act unprofessionally, so the ratings system can ACTUALLY WORK.
amrit_b 13y ago
I did freelancing till 2010. And I will say its 100% your mistake. But I believe now you know how it works. Someone said its the Elance model problem and blah blah. When you assign the project to any developer, the payment, the model doesn't matter. You both agreed to money, deadline, product, etc. What you need to do is make real short milestones and precise task list. Which includes bug fixing, meeting schedules, and of-course delivery of source-code (I prefer a private Git repo with bitbucket or something similar) and hosting to app store. Both should exactly know what needed to be developed and on what date & time. It should go like this: Milestone 1 ($50 / 2hours / 4th Nov 2013 - 10AM delivery): - Git init - splash screen # Your task (1 hr) -> test - release $50 as a go ahead Milestone 2 ($50 / 2hours / 4th Nov 2013 - 10AM delivery) - Screen 1 - form submit - Backend - process form # Your task (1 hr) -> test - release $50 as a go ahead ......... You should also include closing of project, giving reviews and source code details in the milestones. You are not hiring an agency whom you know and who won't mess up (btw, even big agencies mess up). You are hiring a guy whom you have never seen/met. And you just paying $800 for an iPhone app! What you need to do is just tighten up the milestones! If he have good reviews - he definitely have the capability to do the job. Its good to learn app development (also helps to check developer's source) - but there's nothing to be afraid of elance or freenalcer.com. You just need to use the right strategy. The app idea is already in your mind. Spend 2-3 days to plan the project management and make a list of tasks. Then you are all set! And congratulations for your app!
- dsuth 13y ago
  So basically you have to micro-manage the project in extreme detail, which: a) takes up a lot of your time; and b) requires in-depth knowledge of programming tasks. That doesn't strike me as a very useful arrangement. If the guy had that kind of time and knowledge in the first place, why wouldn't he just build it himself?
  - berntb 13y ago
    >> basically you have to micro-manage the project in extreme detail Welcome to outsourcing to unknown people. (The customer probably had some other job.)
saihan-tal 13y ago
After skimming through all comments, I decided to humbly post my blog a while ago about hiring offshore team on Elance to develop my first iPad app, because it is a journey along which I learned a lot and derived pleasure. https://medium.com/on-startups/bad992e31ab6 https://medium.com/on-startups/bad992e31ab6
tossmeup 13y ago
It requires extremely few reviews in the app store to get an average. This app had not yielded an average yet. Glad the writer is not breaking even with this yet.
aeberbach 13y ago
"I should learn how to do it myself." That's an excellent idea. You'll still hire a developer next time of course, but you'll know exactly why you are doing it and you'll appreciate the result a little bit more. Sure the demand for a 5-star review was a little underhanded but what do you expect when you are bottom feeding like that? $800 for any app is way below bargain basement.
ryanackley 13y ago
One thing the author mentions is he asked the developer for a few small graphical changes. As a freelance developer, this is what we call changing the requirements. In layman's terms, the author is re-negotiating what he wants done. It's accepted practice that this means the developer can renegotiate the money.
- fourstar 13y ago
  Have done freelance in the past. Can confirm. Author blew it.
sneak 13y ago
The author should have given him a one-star review for holding the source hostage for the review. Now how will others know this guy is an unprofessional dirtbag?
- billmalarky 13y ago
  I'm a bit torn here since I feel like a good review was part of the expected "payment" to the developer (reading in between the lines suggests he accepted a lower payment in exchange for a good review). Is it against the site TOS and sketchy? Yes. But then the author is just as responsible as the developer for agreeing to such an arrangement. But it becomes understandable that the developer would withhold the product if he had not yet been "paid" in full.
avalaunch 13y ago
Prior to teaching myself to program I hired off of Elance and what I remember most is how helpless I felt. I had no way to verify that the code the client wrote was any good. I worried that I'd pay the first 3 of 4 milestones and then the developer would flake out on me because the last milestone would take 10x as long as the first 3 combined. Or I'd pay all 4 milestones but have no way of noticing huge bugs that would surface later on. I had no idea what was technically challenging and what was simple. All I really wanted was assurance that the money I was spending wasn't being wasted. A lot of people are getting upset with the client for making the "unreasonable demand" of not paying for the app until 10 days after acceptance into the app store. But that's what the client wanted and more importantly that's what they both agreed to. That's what matters most to me. If you agree to a condition you later regret agreeing to, suck it up and consider it a lesson learned. Don't hold hostage the client's deliverables. That's just wrong. In any case, as a freelancer, if a client presented me with that particular milestone requirement, I'd see it as an opportunity and price it in. I'm in a much better position than most clients to determine the likelihood that their app gets approved. I'd research the idea, calculate the risk of it being rejected, add a premium, and adjust my quote accordingly. I'd probably present the client with 2 bids, one where I shoulder the risk and the other where he does. I wonder if there's a business to be had there - providing a sort of insurance against apps being rejected from the apple store. For those wondering, I paid 8k for my web app (over 10 years ago) only to later realize that the core functionality was faked.
fit2rule 13y ago
Whats missing from this conversation: An ELance Human Being. The third party would have made all the difference in the world, moderating this conversation. The two parties were clearly working against each other - either wanting too much for so little, or wanting too much for more work, either way: capitalistic exploitation is relatively easy to detect, and offends the newbies. I tend to think the developer was kind of a punk, though I compel with all the reasons given for wanting more $cash.

112 points by naren87 13y ago

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krrishd 13y ago

Things like this about some developers just piss me off. I'm a freelancer, and really like the idea of a platform like Elance that could easily connect me to clients, but all the good clients stay away becuase of people like that.

zabramow 13y ago
As a non-technical founder who had to search far and wide till we found the right freelancer (and then ultimately a full timer), I've wanted to build a site that connected development shops with clients. Interesting to see how much can go wrong in what should be a very simple model.
- dreamfactory 13y ago
  Aligning business reqs and technical implementation is a harder and more expert job than the development part. These sites assume it doesn't exist and leave a client and dev to scrap it out in a zero sum game.
  - mamcx 13y ago
    Yep, is a big part of the problem. This sites don't make clear that is necessary do some specs, mockups, talk about the project, how do feedback, how manage it when it start, what to do about bugs, how report it, etc. When freelancing, is not as simply as just coding, is project management + customer engaging + quality assurance + researching + coding and the most important of all: Mind reading, and guessing (right!) what the hell the customer want. After +17 years I never ever meet a gig where it become easier. And all that baggage cost. Is time consuming. Is impossible to do it right the first time (and everyone expect a quote on time and cost, and hate if is by the hour!).
mkramlich 13y ago
but the reverse is also true. many/most good developers stay away from it because of the bad/cheapskate clients that are rife there. "I have a great idea that will make me millions!!! just need a developer. oh but my budget is tiny, so sorry! and add this and this and this and I need it by next Tuesday." case of a market-for-lemons, plus race-to-bottom
- chii 13y ago
  The client, in that case, should've just had a profit sharing offer, instead of paying a measly some, for the off chance that the app takes off (thus screwing the dev). If the great idea is gonna make millions (for real), the dev would not hesitate to accept the profit sharing option.
  - mkramlich 13y ago
    agreed that's more fair, if the client can only offer low pay, they need to at least give them a piece of the potential equity upside. though in reality, in the general case, all other things being equal, that equity share will probably be worthless. plus in this day and age it's never been easier for a developer to purse a wide range of business venture ideas, and retain full ownership and equity upside. "Gee, I can work on your Big Idea for small pay and 1-10% equity, or, I can work for somebody else for Big Pay and, disconnected from that, either on the side or afterward (during "bench time" or sabbaticals) work on my own thing for ~100% equity." Choices, choices.

rfnslyr 13y ago

There should really be a website where each worker has been interviewed by some sort of staff, where bad reviews are taken seriously and resolved. Not a willy nilly battlefield of near scammers.

tejay 13y ago
GroupTalent (http://grouptalent.com http://grouptalent.com) maintains some personal checks on their talent pool. Not sure if they'd be into smaller applications like OP's, though.
- mamcx 13y ago
  Something like this for remote work exist?
rhc2104 13y ago
The closest site to what you're talking about is ooomf.com (They don't have reviews, though) I'm building a site (CodeDoor) which uses open source contributions as the sole barrier to entry- a nice thing about that is that it self-selects for technical clients.
pekk 13y ago
But not for people who collect code and then find an excuse not to pay, that isn't necessary at all.
dreamfactory 13y ago
That's a big part of what you're paying an agency for. The whole point of elance is diy management.

jmduke 13y ago

I'd hesitate to blame the author for the issues that arose with the project, as the larger issues lie with Elance (et al)'s feedback mechanism. It should be reasonable to assume that someone with, say, a 4.8/5 rating is a sterling developer, but instead feedback gets perverted into a form of currency to be exploited as opposed to a canonical source of information -- just like what happened with eBay. I think a possible solution for this issue would be to include third-party anonymous auditing: get someone with domain expertise to review the spec, the final product, and communications (without being given the personal details of the two other parties, of course) and give an honest rating of both sides. Obviously, this has scaling issues, but I think a decent amount of people would be willing to pay a premium for a better value proxy.

cpayne 13y ago
(Like everyone else) Elance are out to make a dollar. The system isn't perfect, but show me a business that is. I think it was HIGHLY optimistic to have a budget of less than $1,000 and to think things would be pain free. It would have been interesting if the author had added what he had expected. The article is highly factual (this happened, and then this and then this...) but he didn't add any value judgment. What was his expectations? Was it a red flag that no one on Reddit wanted to touch it? Would he do it again? If he had twice the budget, would that have changed things? etc. etc.
vassvdm 13y ago
I think you're on to something. Ratings on sites like Elance are broken. Clients feel compelled to give 5 star feedback to freelancers, sometimes just to get them off their back. This basically means that you can't look at a reputation score to tell you how good the freelancer actually is. I like the idea of a third-party anonymous person doing an audit. That person would need to have access to all the relevant files though, and have the right skills to judge the freelancer's work. Even the prospect of being audited could be a deterrent to the kind of behavior we saw in this case, which means that randomly auditing one out of every x gigs could be enough.
- chii 13y ago

pyalot2 13y ago

Learning to do it yourself is the best investment you can make. However, don't loose sight of the fact that for serious software development you'll need to hire somebody if you're not a professional programmer (i.e. somebody who writes code for a living, every day, for the last couple of years).

scottydelta 13y ago

But it would be very unwise to consider all the developers to be same just because of a bad experience. I have worked as a freelancer on elance and I have never asked for a 5-star on review or for money upfront.

jawngee 13y ago
> or for money upfront You must not be doing this for very long. I don't work with clients who don't pay 50% upfront for fixed fee projects. And those types of projects I try to avoid.
- scottydelta 13y ago
  but isnt 50% upfront too much? If I were a client, I would never pay 50% upfront because what If the developer is not capable of delivering the product.
  - collyw 13y ago
    If I were a developer why would I spend a number of hours developing,m not knowing if the client would pay?

kclay 13y ago

One thing I have learned about using Elance and other bidding type sites from time to time with work is low,is that most project posters determine the bid solely based on price. Now I understand this but, if you do that then you run into this type of game with contractors. Most non-developer don't understand when someone that is well qualified to handle your project they will make sure there is enough conversations before hand to make sure that all specs and milestones( yes I know you can't know all but just for argument's sake) are fully understood by both parties. The first red flag should of been an iOS app for $800. I don't do iOS development but I for sure you can't get decent developer for $800. Red flag #2 was when the client felt indebted to the developer for doing a fix. To me it looks like he is just trying to nickel and dime for everything little change. Maybe that how some people work but from my personal experience as a developer and from contracting from sites like these I've never had an good contractor do this, now that's not to say I haven't had this happen, I have. Last one was when he said he would hold the sources until a 5 star review, this made me laugh. Now I can see for a review, in some eyes a project isn't complete until a review about one's work has been done, so I can understand that. But denying source until he gets a 5 star that's just absurd. If it was me I would of first made sure all of this convo happened in Elance workroom and then get Elance into it (yeah it would take longer for them to resolve but he would get his files) and then right a lengthy review for this developer to make sure that no one else has this problem. I guess that's just what you have to deal with when using bidding sites. I'm glad he go his app approved but the old saying still stands: You get what you pay for

macspoofing 13y ago
> To me it looks like he is just trying to nickel and dime for everything little change. For $800 you bet your ass the developer will nickel-and-dime. After all, he was nickel-and-dimed.
- eli 13y ago
  By whom? The system? The developer bears at least a little responsibility for submitting a bid that is too low to cover successfully completing the project.

cpayne 13y ago

There's a reason lawyers (generally) don't do fixed price. Or if they do, you are going to pay more for time and materials. I see articles all the time and just wonder, what did you expect? You can add whatever clauses you like (won't pay until xyz etc) but honestly- 1. There's no repeat business. They know your $800 is your entire budget. 2. I've been hassled before for a 5 star rating. The author has already spent 75%. It's worth the risk of holding the source code hostage. If you were a freelancer, would you do any different?

trevmckendrick 13y ago

I've worked with a lot of Elancers in a variety of tasks. The key to managing them is setting clear expectations upfront and then sticking to them. As soon as you release that first payment despite the milestone not being 100% finished you've given them permission to ignore all other deadlines. What's worked best for me is to make 50% of the contract payable after the app has been approved by Apple, but funding the entire project up front. That way the Elancer knows you're serious about payment, but you don't "lose" any money until the app is actually in the App Store.

mkramlich 13y ago
the root problem is fixed scope/price contracts. almost always one party or another, or a mix of both, ends up getting screwed. I prefer to pay-for-time, then both sides evaluate results/experience continually, with each side able to "fire fast" or "up the anty" if/when that party decides.
- chii 13y ago
  pay for time is just as "bad" to the client as fixed cost for the dev. The root problem isn't with the way the payment is made, but with the way one party's expectation does not match reality (whether it's the dev's or the client's). Fix that, and any payment model will work.
  - mkramlich 13y ago
    I agree with you that that model can go bad too. I disagree with you on both models being equally bad, or prone to going bad at the same statistically rate. In my experience, as well as the reported experience of many senior programmers/consultants/freelancers/ISV's I trust, the pay-for-time (honestly worked, of course) is the model that's the least likely to explode on either party. And, surprise surprise, that's also closer to how the traditional direct employment (FT, PT, salary, wage, whatever) model also works. And in general terms, both sides always have the "escape hatch" of being able to fire the other party (speaking in general, with the caveat of arbitrary laws per jurisdiction, blah blah blah.) But in general, if one party isn't happy, they can vote with their feet. That's always true in life, in the general case. But paying for hours/days means the worker is paid in proportion to how much work is involved, whether planned or surprises along the way. And the pay-per-time rate allows the worker to set a value that reflects the quality of his work, his productivity, or his rarity in the marketplace, or total demand for his time, etc. Win and win. Fixed price, fixed scope is like... an unstable equilibrium. Trying to balance a chainsaw on your pinky finger. It can work out just fine. But that's not the way to bet, and to be avoided if you'd like to retain all your body parts.

frank_boyd 13y ago

> really make me wonder how much faith we can put in the reviews on Elance Pretty much the same faith we can put in LinkedIn recommendations, I suppose.

Iftheshoefits 13y ago

Once the author "learns to do it [him]self," maybe he'll appreciate how complicated even "simple" iOS apps are to develop, and maybe he'll realize his expectations were a bit unreasonable. Also, this author's post is exactly why I will never ever work on Elance again. The clients have expectations far out of line with what they're willing to pay.

rickyc091 13y ago
I feel like that's the case with doing consultant work in general.
- mkramlich 13y ago
  it's more pronounced with clients that are less sophisticated, smaller, more mom-and-pop, "I had this great idea!!!! but a very small budget" types. avoid them, and you'll do better
  - ryandoom 13y ago
    Agreed. Consulting and working with individuals to develop their 'baby' is extremely difficult. Majority of the time their expectation is that coding is fancy typing and changes take seconds not hours. As a developer I would suggest building in a reasonable monthly fee for X months for support. It's unrealistic to assume apps are going to meet customers expectations 100% of the time. Discussing this and setting a budget for after 'completion' helps a ton. The poster and most individuals expect to pay a one time fee and start making tons of money on their idea without reinvestment. As developers we need to help educate clients. But, individuals are hard, we never do it unless they are well funded. Not just for their app but for their marketing and overall initiatives.
    - mkramlich 13y ago
      > Majority of the time their expectation is that coding is fancy typing and changes take seconds not hours. THIS. spoken like from direct experience. that's a definite pattern I've seen with some kinds of clients. "How long will it take for you to type up these features?" They have no clue as to how complex software is, all the moving parts, the interactions, the hidden bugs and quirks, lurking complications, constraints, trade-offs, under-documented or mis-documented behaviors, etc.

gexla 13y ago

I don't care where you live in this world. The cost of living is going up everywhere. If you pick up a cheap developer, expect the person is going to be hitting you up for payments regularly. At this rate, the person can't really save to get ahead, he is likely struggling from one payment to the next. Getting screwed over would probably be devastating to him, though I imagine he was more concerned about quick payments than getting screwed over. If you have someone doing cheap work and doing well, keep the payments flowing. If you are happy, then make the developer happy as well.

mkramlich 13y ago
> If you have someone doing cheap work and doing well, keep the payments flowing. If you are happy, then make the developer happy as well. THIS x 10

woodylondon 13y ago

This was an interesting read, and had very similar experiences. My current problem is an IOS developer who I have used on 2 projects without issue. I then started a new project 3 months ago which should have taken 2-3 weeks max. So far his mother, son have both died. He lost his house. His computer broke, and then another one. Finally his son died again!? Still nothing has been sent, and he has had 50% of the money. I suspect the problem is that he has taken on too much work. I have paid him well in the past, been fair with spec changes etc. He saw me an easy touch to screw over on the 3rd project. No plans to work with him again. It's not the money that pisses me off, its the wasted time!

mkramlich 13y ago
Without knowing the specifics or the absolute truth about the situation on his side, I can say it's possible those things really did happen. And consider that in the alternative scenario where you had to have him on payroll as a FT/direct employee, you'd be paying regular paychecks + benefits to him this entire time. You're lucky to have the option of engaging someone only as a temporary "disposable" contractor. And for every scenario where the client appears to have been "screwed" by the developer, I guarantee you the reverse scenario has happened. Possibly even with that same guy, with the shoe on the other foot. It's truly a jungle out there.
objclxt 13y ago
> Still nothing has been sent, and he has had 50% of the money. ...but you have a contract that presumably sets out the delivery, and how you resolve disputes, and what happens if somebody delivers late, presumably. And if you don't have a contract...well, there's a lesson there!

AlexeyBrin 13y ago

There was once a website were you, as a buyer, were assured of having complete rights over the source code and the binary of an application for which you hired a developer. Also, the developer was assured the money for the application are in an escrow account once the project was awarded and he will be paid if he can deliver in time. This site was RentACoder, later renamed vWorker. There was no way for a coder to be able to keep the source code hostage until a 5 star review was given or for the buyer to delay the payment. Today, vWorker doesn't exist anymore, it was bought by Freelancer. On Freelancer there is no guarantee that you will get your final product (as a buyer) or that you will be paid (as a coder). Actually, a buyer can post a project, pay you for an application, get the application and than request a charge back from the credit card company :). Freelancer has no inclination to protect the buyer or the coder.

ricardobeat 13y ago
It's been a while since I visited elance, but I think that's exactly how it is supposed to work. Freelancer.com is a weird experiment in gamification, feels like a scam from the start.

rubiquity 13y ago

I feel like sites like Elance just foster bad client-developer relationships from the get go. With everything being so prix fixe it sets aside the #1 attribute of software development - uncertainty. From reading this post it sounds like everything was honki-dori until the client came back with changes. Changes equate to more development which equates to more money. Clients need to understand the uncertain parts of software development better and paying up front sites like Elance and others just don't support that.

mamcx 13y ago

This kind of sites have the problem (big one IMHO) that the projects descriptions are almost useless as specs, and a lot of developers don't know how build that from the customers (and rarely a customer know what to say, ask or give). I wish that when a customer send a project, somebody review it and check if the assumptions of the customer are on line with reality, or can do some consulting to properly scope the projects before div in. Probably having projects manager in the side (not in the middle!)?

EGF 13y ago

My starting conversation for someone looking for outside help on a project is always; Price, Quality, Time - pick two. This helps guide the conversation as there is usually some limiting factor to the "job" whether its budget, when they need it, or how good the quality has to be.

mkramlich 13y ago
Also I've seen a pretty high correlation (not 100%, but high) with clients that push down on pay... but ALSO have very high expectations on quality and time-to-market. It seems paradoxical, but life doesn't prevent paradoxical idiocy from existing. Speaking in general terms, the clients that offer/agree to higher pay tend to be less demanding, more flexible, more realistic, more appreciative and with more repeating/recurring business (rather than one-off speculative "I have this great idea, just need a duh-veloper!" situations) I'm getting very close to a point where I might start "shit testing" or filtering potential clients by asking for, say, $1000 upfront, just to have an exploratory talk with me on the phone. Figuring that if they cannot even do that, physically, or are not willing to do that, then they are probably not the kind of client I want to take on anyway, either because they don't have the budget, or, are not sophisticated enough. (They don't understand market conditions, the risks involved to developers, the money cost of time, the time cost of money, the nature of reciprocity, or what their alternative cost would be if they had to hire a software engineer as a FT/direct employee, pay full benefits, paid time off, insurance, etc.)
rpwilcox 13y ago
> Price, Quality, Time Please don't use those terms. There are better ones: Price, Scope (size) and Time. The problem with the phrasing "Price, Quality, Time" is that nobody wants to sacrifice on quality. Everyone wants a app that doesn't crash -- the client, the end users, and the developer. Yes, yes, technical debt is a quality concern, but as long as the app runs the client doesn't care in the moment that there's copy/pasted code everywhere and future changes will be "interesting". It's hard to sell "but if I take an extra half day to make this change future improvements will be easier", at least not in tight projects. But Scope, scope can start negotiation with clients. "Ok, you do know this new control you want will probably take something like 10 hours to write, do you really want it or can you make do with a default one?" If a client drops a fixed bid project on me with a dictated time deadline, sure as anything I'm going to take control of the scope side of the project triangle.

Untit1ed 13y ago

I can see why he's annoyed, but at the end of the day he's got a reasonably well-reviewed app for the cost of $800 and a few hours arguing over email... still a pretty good deal.

cmbaus 13y ago

I've outsourced some development on oDesk, and it worked out ok. I even hired one of the developers full-time for a different project. What I did was start with a small project, and verify the developer's work. This is much easier to do if you are technical. If you are non-technical, I think these sites are worthless. There is no way to know what you are getting. Edit: I should say they are worthless for technical work. I've also hired a non-technical assistant who was in the US and that worked out great, and I'm sure other non-technical people could do the same.

mkramlich 13y ago

> I had virtually zero budget at this moment I strongly suspected that I knew how it would turn out > and since it was already late and this made it a slam dunk other tells (statistically speaking): -- the "I had this great idea!!! just needed a developer" factor -- looking for programmers on Elance/Guru, etc.

georgiecasey 13y ago
> > I had virtually zero budget > at this moment I strongly suspected that I knew how it would turn out I was sure the app would never get as far as the app store. but it did, and all for $800. he got very lucky.

benmorris 13y ago

I'm not really surprised to read this synopsis of hiring on Elance. I've done a lot of hiring on there, but have found out you can leave no room for guessing. No matter what you want done needs to be speced out meticulously and attached to the project. It has been said, but you absolutely get what you pay for. Again, for the price this sort of nagging for payouts of pretty typical I've found also, especially for low paying jobs. I must say contrary to the author I would be leaving a negative review for this developer. There is no excuse to hold the source code hostage for a 5 star review. Tacky and unprofessional

JoseVigil 13y ago

Mike experience did not look that bad after all, ultimately with some patience on his side he has an app up on the store. Either on the side of the client or on the developer there is a very hard work to do in order to accomplish a simple app. I think Mike underestimates the challenge and I wish him good luck on the development side, a new trip is waiting for him.

jawngee 13y ago

This enrages me. I feel horrible for the developer. First, my day rate as a professional full-time iOS dev is higher than what he paid for the entire project. Granted, I've been writing software for almost 20 years now, the last six strictly Cocoa and iOS, and I live in NYC. But even then, all I can tell him is that he got what he paid for. Second, if a client is going to withhold final payment based on Apple acceptance, there is no way I would work for them. Specially for some dumb app like this. But the part that really irks me is the last bit about "doing it yourself next time". Good luck with that. I would love to be around the moment you have the epiphany about how much you got for how little you spent and what an asshole you are about whining about it.

aferreira 13y ago
I find it hilarious that people think it's just gathering some pieces, applying glue and add pretty graphics.
- jawngee 13y ago
  "Hey we have an app we want you to build, it should be super simple and take you no time at all" says the guy who has written code exactly never, but is a pro with powerpoint.
  - scarlson 13y ago
    Getting a functional app within 2 days, and him thinking he's going to be able to "learn to code" and have that kind of output is bonkers. I've been coding half my life, and it will still take me weeks to put together small stuff that I obsess over every little detail on.
ye 13y ago
> Second, if a client is going to withhold final payment based on Apple acceptance, there is no way I would work for them But that was the requirement of the project, which the developer agreed to. What enraged me is the behaviour of the developer.

6d0debc071 13y ago

Specs being more or less fixed is fairly standard for any creative industry. Otherwise you end up doing many multiples of the work you originally signed on for for people who are continually changing their mind or having one extra little thing. You wouldn't say to a builder who came to your house to fix the roof "Oh, and while you're up there, the chimney needs doing." And not expect to pay for it. How you handle that varies, I don't work on a fixed fee - I give estimates but it costs what it costs, so in many ways it's easier for me. Still, I give people three goes to change their minds about the graphical assets and placement of interface elements, within the specs we've worked out of course - and then if they want to change it we work something new out or we go ahead with one of the prototypes they like; I'm not going to be messed around by someone who can't make up their mind, there are other clients. The way I look at it my initial contract is to make up to three rough versions of the thing for them - and if we're working well together we take it from there, or if we're not we walk away from the thing. # Other points - Hired someone who may have had flawed English skills, (from reading the back and forth) Paid $800 and expected top notch service. Unclear milestones. Hired someone in a dramatically different time zone (always a bit of a pain.)

aferreira 13y ago

What's that old saying? You get what you pay for. What did you expect for $800? "Oh but it's a simple app" - Well, so is the electrical grid! I delivers power to your house, simple right? Oh wait. NOPE. Additionally, I do agree that once you've accepted to pay the final fees once development ends, you should pay them then and not when the app is 'accepted onto app store and 10 days have passed so users can report bugs'. What on earth were you thinking? That's not the developer's problem. That's YOUR problem. I find it nice that he even offered to fix any bugs found on the review process or after the store's release, most developers could charge you extra for this. Please get this right once and for all: You pay consultants / freelancers a combination of time spent + expertise. Never for a finished product.

EpicEng 13y ago
I agree with you, but this is a bit much: "Oh but it's a simple app" - Well, so is the electrical grid! I delivers power to your house, simple right? Oh wait. NOPE. Really? Comparing a trivial iOS app to the electrical infrastructure, a huge engineering task (sorry, Santa's List iOS isn't engineering). Please.
- aferreira 13y ago
  Hey I can blow things out of proportion and create unreasonable expectations just like the author does :)
  - EpicEng 13y ago
    ...fair enough.
avalaunch 13y ago
Actually you pay them for whatever you agree to pay them for. As a freelancer, I'm able to accept or reject any proposal as I see fit. If someone wants me to shoulder the risk of an app being approved by Apple, that's fine with me. Much like an insurance policy, I'll calculate in the risk and charge them accordingly.

logn 13y ago

An app for Santa to track gifts and children's associated good deeds to earn them. And this guy is quibbling over being asked to leave a developer a 5-star review and $800. Sure, you shouldn't hassle clients for good reviews, but maybe you also shouldn't expect people half way around the world to have perfect business etiquette. Besides, every time I go to a store or call a customer service line, plenty of Americans ask me to fill out a review and also often ask if I'm totally happy with their service. This isn't much different.

ye 13y ago
What if he doesn't want to leave a 5-star review? He paid for the project, which included the source code. The source code needs to be delivered.
- logn 13y ago
  If the client refused to leave a 5-star review, I'd speculate the developer would improve the project such that he would get a 5-star review. I think it's his way of saying, "we're not done until you're totally satisfied". Of course, the developer went about it in a rude way, but that's exactly what you can expect hiring someone from a totally different culture than ours whom you've never met. Basically this entrepreneur is complaining that being an engineering manager isn't 100% easy. And then he concludes by saying that being an engineer is totally do-able and probably easier than managing. lol
  - ye 13y ago
    I wouldn't leave a 5-star review simply because the developer requested to get paid earlier than the agreed upon schedule. If he doesn't honor what he agreed to, he doesn't deserve 5 stars.
- chii 13y ago
  I m sure the dev knows that as soon as he gets anything less than a 5 star review, his livelyhood might be destroyed. Withholding the source is one way to pressure clients to give good reviews. Whether this is justified or not, the $800 isn't worth a less-than-5-star review. If the client is a dick and leaves a crap review even if their specs were satisfied, what's the dev to do? The problem is actually the review system - there is no auto-correcting feedback loop.

gameguy43 13y ago

I was hoping this would happen when I read the comments on this post on /r/entrepreneur. Compare the comments there and the comments here. Fascinating case study: http://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/1pp2bg/i_hired_a_developer_in_china_via_elance_to_build/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/1pp2bg/i_hired...

joshuaellinger 13y ago

I was considering trying Elance until I read this. Not I am thinking I cannot afford it because of the demand it would place on my time to manage and because I can't trust that a 5 star rating correlates with quality. Sheesh... I wouldn't have been willing to have that argument for $800 much less write any code.

pekk 13y ago

What a scam. If Apple doesn't like your project, you don't have to pay the developer. No risk for you.

shearnie 13y ago

Would setting up a version control repository for the developer that you can access avoid the problem being held at ransom for the five star review?

sneak 13y ago
The output from all devs (on sane projects) is github. A better solution would be to not falsify five star reviews when people act unprofessionally, so the ratings system can ACTUALLY WORK.

amrit_b 13y ago

I did freelancing till 2010. And I will say its 100% your mistake. But I believe now you know how it works. Someone said its the Elance model problem and blah blah. When you assign the project to any developer, the payment, the model doesn't matter. You both agreed to money, deadline, product, etc. What you need to do is make real short milestones and precise task list. Which includes bug fixing, meeting schedules, and of-course delivery of source-code (I prefer a private Git repo with bitbucket or something similar) and hosting to app store. Both should exactly know what needed to be developed and on what date & time. It should go like this: Milestone 1 ($50 / 2hours / 4th Nov 2013 - 10AM delivery): - Git init - splash screen # Your task (1 hr) -> test - release $50 as a go ahead Milestone 2 ($50 / 2hours / 4th Nov 2013 - 10AM delivery) - Screen 1 - form submit - Backend - process form # Your task (1 hr) -> test - release $50 as a go ahead ......... You should also include closing of project, giving reviews and source code details in the milestones. You are not hiring an agency whom you know and who won't mess up (btw, even big agencies mess up). You are hiring a guy whom you have never seen/met. And you just paying $800 for an iPhone app! What you need to do is just tighten up the milestones! If he have good reviews - he definitely have the capability to do the job. Its good to learn app development (also helps to check developer's source) - but there's nothing to be afraid of elance or freenalcer.com. You just need to use the right strategy. The app idea is already in your mind. Spend 2-3 days to plan the project management and make a list of tasks. Then you are all set! And congratulations for your app!

dsuth 13y ago
So basically you have to micro-manage the project in extreme detail, which: a) takes up a lot of your time; and b) requires in-depth knowledge of programming tasks. That doesn't strike me as a very useful arrangement. If the guy had that kind of time and knowledge in the first place, why wouldn't he just build it himself?
- berntb 13y ago
  >> basically you have to micro-manage the project in extreme detail Welcome to outsourcing to unknown people. (The customer probably had some other job.)

saihan-tal 13y ago

After skimming through all comments, I decided to humbly post my blog a while ago about hiring offshore team on Elance to develop my first iPad app, because it is a journey along which I learned a lot and derived pleasure. https://medium.com/on-startups/bad992e31ab6 https://medium.com/on-startups/bad992e31ab6

tossmeup 13y ago

It requires extremely few reviews in the app store to get an average. This app had not yielded an average yet. Glad the writer is not breaking even with this yet.

aeberbach 13y ago

"I should learn how to do it myself." That's an excellent idea. You'll still hire a developer next time of course, but you'll know exactly why you are doing it and you'll appreciate the result a little bit more. Sure the demand for a 5-star review was a little underhanded but what do you expect when you are bottom feeding like that? $800 for any app is way below bargain basement.

ryanackley 13y ago

One thing the author mentions is he asked the developer for a few small graphical changes. As a freelance developer, this is what we call changing the requirements. In layman's terms, the author is re-negotiating what he wants done. It's accepted practice that this means the developer can renegotiate the money.

fourstar 13y ago
Have done freelance in the past. Can confirm. Author blew it.

sneak 13y ago

The author should have given him a one-star review for holding the source hostage for the review. Now how will others know this guy is an unprofessional dirtbag?

billmalarky 13y ago
I'm a bit torn here since I feel like a good review was part of the expected "payment" to the developer (reading in between the lines suggests he accepted a lower payment in exchange for a good review). Is it against the site TOS and sketchy? Yes. But then the author is just as responsible as the developer for agreeing to such an arrangement. But it becomes understandable that the developer would withhold the product if he had not yet been "paid" in full.

avalaunch 13y ago

Prior to teaching myself to program I hired off of Elance and what I remember most is how helpless I felt. I had no way to verify that the code the client wrote was any good. I worried that I'd pay the first 3 of 4 milestones and then the developer would flake out on me because the last milestone would take 10x as long as the first 3 combined. Or I'd pay all 4 milestones but have no way of noticing huge bugs that would surface later on. I had no idea what was technically challenging and what was simple. All I really wanted was assurance that the money I was spending wasn't being wasted. A lot of people are getting upset with the client for making the "unreasonable demand" of not paying for the app until 10 days after acceptance into the app store. But that's what the client wanted and more importantly that's what they both agreed to. That's what matters most to me. If you agree to a condition you later regret agreeing to, suck it up and consider it a lesson learned. Don't hold hostage the client's deliverables. That's just wrong. In any case, as a freelancer, if a client presented me with that particular milestone requirement, I'd see it as an opportunity and price it in. I'm in a much better position than most clients to determine the likelihood that their app gets approved. I'd research the idea, calculate the risk of it being rejected, add a premium, and adjust my quote accordingly. I'd probably present the client with 2 bids, one where I shoulder the risk and the other where he does. I wonder if there's a business to be had there - providing a sort of insurance against apps being rejected from the apple store. For those wondering, I paid 8k for my web app (over 10 years ago) only to later realize that the core functionality was faked.

fit2rule 13y ago

Whats missing from this conversation: An ELance Human Being. The third party would have made all the difference in the world, moderating this conversation. The two parties were clearly working against each other - either wanting too much for so little, or wanting too much for more work, either way: capitalistic exploitation is relatively easy to detect, and offends the newbies. I tend to think the developer was kind of a punk, though I compel with all the reasons given for wanting more $cash.