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Kragen, that is uncalled for. In most cultures, that remark is reserved for people who have hurt others. Naggum was opinionated about a freaking programming lan

by FraaJad 17y ago

Kragen, that is uncalled for. In most cultures, that remark is reserved for people who have hurt others. Naggum was opinionated about a freaking programming language. As far anybody knows, he did not hurt a human being.

kragen 17y ago
Nearly every Naggum post on comp.lang.lisp was an attempt to hurt other people; he was a master of emotional cruelty. I was never a victim of it myself, as far as I can remember, but it repelled me from the forum.
- azanar 17y ago
  He was not attempting to hurt people. That some people reacted that way to his posts is not an indication of intent. Of the posts of his I read, it seems that he would go that direction only when someone else already painted themselves the victim of emotional hurt from his earlier technical criticism. You could argue he should've reacted differently to this self-victimization, but I worry what that would do to the signal-to-noise ratio of the forum in question. If people who require emotional coddling are encouraged to participate in technical forms, then a lot of the conversations focus on that rather than on technical point. ESR was not entirely wrong when he stated you can pick exaggeratedly "friendly" or useful; Naggum's goal was to keep the forum firmly planted in the realm of useful, even if it meant offending some people along the way. I think there is some virtue in this. Of the posts of his I read, there were nuggets of very good wisdom in all of them.
  - nixme 17y ago
    Not that I disagree, but this thread is an interesting point of reference: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/21744d089a3f1b79?tvc=2 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/...
    - kragen 17y ago
      Everyone who is commenting and downmodding here should read at least the first message in that thread. Then they should mod up my top-level comment and apologize.
      - calambrac 17y ago
        Do you have any self-awareness of the irony of asking people to not express sorrow at someone's death because you think he was a sociopath? Expressing glee at another person's death is pretty sick, but wanting an apology from people who downmodded you for it is just outright twisted. Seek help.
        kragen 17y ago
        I'm not asking people not to express sorrow; I just don't think that silently downmodding my comment is a reasonable or effective way of doing it. I think it's a slap in the face of all the people Erik bullied and abused over the years to punish someone for speaking out on their behalf. With regard to me "seeking help": were you consciously quoting Erik's post, or was that a matter of unconscious irony?
        froo 17y ago
        I think it's a slap in the face of all the people Erik bullied and abused over the years... .. and now that he's gone, you have finally gotten up the courage to do some bullying of your own, to a man who can't fight back because he's... you know... dead? Umm, yay you? What's your next trick, clubbing some baby seals? The fact is, people post crap on the interwebs every day. It is true the net is a series of tubes and unfortunately some of those tubes are sewage pipes. Deal with it.
        calambrac 17y ago
        Can you please tell me what reasonable and effective method I could use to get you to stop expressing joy at Erik Naggum's death? I'll happily employ that instead of downmodding you and calling out your current behavior as every bit as terrible as or worse than the worst of what he ever did. When you die and some idiot troll posts a link to this thread and expresses glee that you're gone, hopefully someone will come along and call that asshole out, too.

by FraaJad 17y ago

kragen 17y ago

Nearly every Naggum post on comp.lang.lisp was an attempt to hurt other people; he was a master of emotional cruelty. I was never a victim of it myself, as far as I can remember, but it repelled me from the forum.

azanar 17y ago
He was not attempting to hurt people. That some people reacted that way to his posts is not an indication of intent. Of the posts of his I read, it seems that he would go that direction only when someone else already painted themselves the victim of emotional hurt from his earlier technical criticism. You could argue he should've reacted differently to this self-victimization, but I worry what that would do to the signal-to-noise ratio of the forum in question. If people who require emotional coddling are encouraged to participate in technical forms, then a lot of the conversations focus on that rather than on technical point. ESR was not entirely wrong when he stated you can pick exaggeratedly "friendly" or useful; Naggum's goal was to keep the forum firmly planted in the realm of useful, even if it meant offending some people along the way. I think there is some virtue in this. Of the posts of his I read, there were nuggets of very good wisdom in all of them.
- nixme 17y ago
  Not that I disagree, but this thread is an interesting point of reference: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/21744d089a3f1b79?tvc=2 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/...
  - kragen 17y ago
    Everyone who is commenting and downmodding here should read at least the first message in that thread. Then they should mod up my top-level comment and apologize.
    - calambrac 17y ago
      Do you have any self-awareness of the irony of asking people to not express sorrow at someone's death because you think he was a sociopath? Expressing glee at another person's death is pretty sick, but wanting an apology from people who downmodded you for it is just outright twisted. Seek help.
      - kragen 17y ago
        I'm not asking people not to express sorrow; I just don't think that silently downmodding my comment is a reasonable or effective way of doing it. I think it's a slap in the face of all the people Erik bullied and abused over the years to punish someone for speaking out on their behalf. With regard to me "seeking help": were you consciously quoting Erik's post, or was that a matter of unconscious irony?
        froo 17y ago
        I think it's a slap in the face of all the people Erik bullied and abused over the years... .. and now that he's gone, you have finally gotten up the courage to do some bullying of your own, to a man who can't fight back because he's... you know... dead? Umm, yay you? What's your next trick, clubbing some baby seals? The fact is, people post crap on the interwebs every day. It is true the net is a series of tubes and unfortunately some of those tubes are sewage pipes. Deal with it.
        calambrac 17y ago
        Can you please tell me what reasonable and effective method I could use to get you to stop expressing joy at Erik Naggum's death? I'll happily employ that instead of downmodding you and calling out your current behavior as every bit as terrible as or worse than the worst of what he ever did. When you die and some idiot troll posts a link to this thread and expresses glee that you're gone, hopefully someone will come along and call that asshole out, too.