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Of course it is possible to criticize Ubuntu or Canonical. What he means is that it's impossible for a prominent developer to criticize their technical decisio

by lambda 13y ago

Of course it is possible to criticize Ubuntu or Canonical. What he means is that it's impossible for a prominent developer to criticize their technical decisions without facing a ton of hateful backlash from Ubuntu fans and Mark Shuttleworth himself. Which he knows, from experience, because he did just that, criticized the design of Mir and said that he wouldn't support it, and he got exactly that backlash. If Mark Shuttleworth actually followed the Ubuntu code of conduct http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/conduct http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/conduct, we would not have gotten here: Be respectful Disagreement is no excuse for poor manners. We work together to resolve conflict, assume good intentions and do our best to act in an empathic fashion. We don't allow frustration to turn into a personal attack. A community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. Calling people "the Open Source Tea Party", "purely political", "outraged individuals" who have "NIH'd just about every important piece of the stack" is pretty much in pure opposition to the Ubuntu code of conduct; but since Mark does this, other people feel like this kind of behavior is acceptable and pile on the attack.

pachydermic 13y ago
I thought that was so childish and crass of him. I really dislike the term "Open Source Tea Party". It's just so infuriating on so many levels. First of all, it's a lazy insult - it's just applying a label (also known as name calling) to put people down without any context. It implies that these people are irrational, inflexible and idealistic, but with a bad connotation. He could have argued that those things are true in a more diplomatic way, and more importantly, by using evidence other than just claiming that mir is "important" or "a huge leap forward for gaming performance...". Instead, he just labels the people who happen to disagree with him as the tea party. Great. Secondly, I think it's fair to be concerned about what's going on with mir. Maybe he's telling the truth that they just want the best solution... I think everyone, whether you want Wayland or not, would like to move away from X. So maybe mir is the right way to go. However, they failed to make the case for this in a typical open source way. Why not improve Wayland instead of going off and doing your own thing? If the direction of Wayland is awful or wrong, why not point that out? And instead of just claiming that's the case, why not try to use evidence to prove that it's the case? I have been following this closely, but have no idea what the advantages of the two proposed systems is better... but it certainly seems that almost everyone other than Canonical is rooting for and working on Wayland, which isn't really a good sign... It's very easy to be skeptical because of all the good will they sacrificed by sticking Amazon adds in my god-damned desktop. Honestly, that seems like such a shameless land-grab for clueless users' personal data which really damages their privacy. It wouldn't even have been an issue if it was simply opt in. So, because they made that poor decision, people are skeptical, critical, maybe even a bit irrational. But that shouldn't be surprising. And even if you're being personally attacked yourself, it doesn't make it right to attack other people - many of whom aren't trying to make their contributions a business and are doing their work with pure intentions - unlike Canonical and Mark who clearly have a business angle in all this (which, in and of itself, is totally fine). Sorry for the rant, guys. I mean, do people really think "open source tea party" is at all fair?
- MrZongle2 13y ago
  "Sorry for the rant, guys. I mean, do people really think "open source tea party" is at all fair?" No. If nothing else, it is an insult to the original (Boston) Tea Party. One might remember that those individuals were protesting irrational decisions made by a king who was far isolated from said subjects.
  - protomyth 13y ago
    The King had a very rational reason for wanting those taxes. It went quite a bit deeper on the colonial side since they had no say in the matter and expected all the rights of a British citizen. The implementation of those taxes by using troops and "general warrants" was a problem. Sadly, the formation of thought on that is once again back with us and not imposed by a ruler across the ocean. As to the modern Tea Party, I guess it depends who you talk to on if they think its an insult.
- blueblob 13y ago
  I am very much rooting for Wayland. It is going to bring features like screen/tmux to graphical programs. Nothing like going to work at home mid day and attaching to the individual programs that you had running on your other machine. This is the reason I currently use terminal programs instead of X ones. Doesn't sound like Mir is providing more over Wayland than just including input, which arguably could be provided outside of the server itself.
  - bitwize 13y ago
    Wayland probably isn't going to provide remote display capability, let alone anything like that. All Wayland really does is hand out framebuffers in local RAM. The Wayland devs consider app display remoting to be a special case used by relatively few users, and outside the scope of the core project. And now you know why I'm sticking with X for now.
    - blueblob 13y ago
      I do not believe that Wayland would provide this functionality, rather that it would provide separation to enable this functionality. This functionality would be implemented in a compositor for Wayland. There is something similar for X, called Xpra. They list porting to Wayland as one of their "project ideas." http://xpra.org/ http://xpra.org/

by lambda 13y ago

pachydermic 13y ago

I thought that was so childish and crass of him. I really dislike the term "Open Source Tea Party". It's just so infuriating on so many levels. First of all, it's a lazy insult - it's just applying a label (also known as name calling) to put people down without any context. It implies that these people are irrational, inflexible and idealistic, but with a bad connotation. He could have argued that those things are true in a more diplomatic way, and more importantly, by using evidence other than just claiming that mir is "important" or "a huge leap forward for gaming performance...". Instead, he just labels the people who happen to disagree with him as the tea party. Great. Secondly, I think it's fair to be concerned about what's going on with mir. Maybe he's telling the truth that they just want the best solution... I think everyone, whether you want Wayland or not, would like to move away from X. So maybe mir is the right way to go. However, they failed to make the case for this in a typical open source way. Why not improve Wayland instead of going off and doing your own thing? If the direction of Wayland is awful or wrong, why not point that out? And instead of just claiming that's the case, why not try to use evidence to prove that it's the case? I have been following this closely, but have no idea what the advantages of the two proposed systems is better... but it certainly seems that almost everyone other than Canonical is rooting for and working on Wayland, which isn't really a good sign... It's very easy to be skeptical because of all the good will they sacrificed by sticking Amazon adds in my god-damned desktop. Honestly, that seems like such a shameless land-grab for clueless users' personal data which really damages their privacy. It wouldn't even have been an issue if it was simply opt in. So, because they made that poor decision, people are skeptical, critical, maybe even a bit irrational. But that shouldn't be surprising. And even if you're being personally attacked yourself, it doesn't make it right to attack other people - many of whom aren't trying to make their contributions a business and are doing their work with pure intentions - unlike Canonical and Mark who clearly have a business angle in all this (which, in and of itself, is totally fine). Sorry for the rant, guys. I mean, do people really think "open source tea party" is at all fair?

MrZongle2 13y ago
"Sorry for the rant, guys. I mean, do people really think "open source tea party" is at all fair?" No. If nothing else, it is an insult to the original (Boston) Tea Party. One might remember that those individuals were protesting irrational decisions made by a king who was far isolated from said subjects.
- protomyth 13y ago
  The King had a very rational reason for wanting those taxes. It went quite a bit deeper on the colonial side since they had no say in the matter and expected all the rights of a British citizen. The implementation of those taxes by using troops and "general warrants" was a problem. Sadly, the formation of thought on that is once again back with us and not imposed by a ruler across the ocean. As to the modern Tea Party, I guess it depends who you talk to on if they think its an insult.
blueblob 13y ago
I am very much rooting for Wayland. It is going to bring features like screen/tmux to graphical programs. Nothing like going to work at home mid day and attaching to the individual programs that you had running on your other machine. This is the reason I currently use terminal programs instead of X ones. Doesn't sound like Mir is providing more over Wayland than just including input, which arguably could be provided outside of the server itself.
- bitwize 13y ago
  Wayland probably isn't going to provide remote display capability, let alone anything like that. All Wayland really does is hand out framebuffers in local RAM. The Wayland devs consider app display remoting to be a special case used by relatively few users, and outside the scope of the core project. And now you know why I'm sticking with X for now.
  - blueblob 13y ago
    I do not believe that Wayland would provide this functionality, rather that it would provide separation to enable this functionality. This functionality would be implemented in a compositor for Wayland. There is something similar for X, called Xpra. They list porting to Wayland as one of their "project ideas." http://xpra.org/ http://xpra.org/