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Since I was used as proof of the effectiveness of "puffery", I went to find out what that English word means: "promotional statements and claims that express su

Since I was used as proof of the effectiveness of "puffery", I went to find out what that English word means: "promotional statements and claims that express subjective rather than objective views, which no 'reasonable person' would take literally". Well, I don't claim to take all my decisions based on pure reasoning. Intuition has a lot to do with my technology choices, because it's built on all my prior experiences and knowledge. I've learned that often keeping it simple is a good thing. There´s a tendency to over-architect and over-abstract, and the cognitive overload of the full stack, end-to-end, is significant. For front-end JavaScript applications, I've been favorable to AngularJS and Knockout. I've looked into Backbone but it promotes a style of programming I'm done with and I want to have no relation to ever again, so I wouldn't consider Backbone an alternative either way. So I don't feel diminished or discouraged by negative remarks to say that I'll try Riot's style in the next small app I'll build. It's targeted at mobile, it already depends on jQuery, and I was worried to add another large (for 3G) dependency to it.

jashkenas 13y ago
And sadly, with great pain, I rest my case. --- But hey, if you want to try out a hot new framework that Fits in A Tweet™, I've got something special for you. Announcing Revolution.js It's a mere fraction the size of Riot.js, and provides over 100 times the functionality. Despite the unbelievable size, all the building blocks are there: a template engine, router, event library and a strict MVP pattern to keep things organized. Revolution.js is simpler and faster — in fact, on a completely different scale. In fact, it's so small and so fast that I can share it with you right here: function Revolution() { var a = arguments; return jQuery[a[0]].apply(jQuery, a.slice(1)); } New frameworks like Riot.js persuade false beliefs with shiny websites and finely crafted marketing without transparent, scientific analysis. They solve hypothetical problems and cause new problems instead. At this point you might ask — "Hey, wait a minute, what's the deal? Isn't that just wrapping jQuery, and adding nothing?". To which I would answer, yes, exactly. This is a Revolution against the status quo! Revolution is a manifesto for vanilla JavaScript and jQuery.
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- pbowyer 13y ago
  Nice one Jeremy :D
- tipiirai 13y ago
  As the author of Backbone I can understand your rage. I think that instead of bashing Riot you should focus on reasoning the existence of Backbone instead. Riot is clearly not just a jQuery and people can realize that.
  - esailija 13y ago
    Riot is just jQuery though. The riot's own source code is literally useless. I agree with the ideas that you can structure your application without frameworks like backbone though
    - courtneycouch0 13y ago
      From the repo: "Riot is a manifesto for vanilla JavaScript and jQuery." I think that's really the point. Rejecting the idea of these big frameworks and promoting vanilla JS.. Rejecting the myth that without big frameworks your code is unmanageable.
- kevincennis 13y ago
  Issue #1: Arguments object has no method `slice`. Steps to repro: Invoke the constructor. I'll send a PR as soon as this makes it to Github. -------- In all seriousness though, I completely agree with you.
  - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
    The revolution will be open sourced. https://github.com/ChrisAntaki/revolution https://github.com/ChrisAntaki/revolution
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cdata 13y ago
The problems with writing client side JavaScript on a big project have little to do with the m.o. of your framework, but they are heavily affected by the manageability of the code you produce. Jeremy's point is that the framework is snake oil, and he is right. You will spend effectively just as much time ensuring your code is manageable without this framework as you will with it. It is mostly a wrapper around jQuery, and if you aren't the sort of JavaScript developer who can recreate this sort of wrapper in short order, you should strive to be (especially if you are taking on the task of authoring a large scale JavaScript application).

jashkenas 13y ago

And sadly, with great pain, I rest my case. --- But hey, if you want to try out a hot new framework that Fits in A Tweet™, I've got something special for you. Announcing Revolution.js It's a mere fraction the size of Riot.js, and provides over 100 times the functionality. Despite the unbelievable size, all the building blocks are there: a template engine, router, event library and a strict MVP pattern to keep things organized. Revolution.js is simpler and faster — in fact, on a completely different scale. In fact, it's so small and so fast that I can share it with you right here: function Revolution() { var a = arguments; return jQuery[a[0]].apply(jQuery, a.slice(1)); } New frameworks like Riot.js persuade false beliefs with shiny websites and finely crafted marketing without transparent, scientific analysis. They solve hypothetical problems and cause new problems instead. At this point you might ask — "Hey, wait a minute, what's the deal? Isn't that just wrapping jQuery, and adding nothing?". To which I would answer, yes, exactly. This is a Revolution against the status quo! Revolution is a manifesto for vanilla JavaScript and jQuery.

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pbowyer 13y ago
Nice one Jeremy :D
tipiirai 13y ago
As the author of Backbone I can understand your rage. I think that instead of bashing Riot you should focus on reasoning the existence of Backbone instead. Riot is clearly not just a jQuery and people can realize that.
- esailija 13y ago
  Riot is just jQuery though. The riot's own source code is literally useless. I agree with the ideas that you can structure your application without frameworks like backbone though
  - courtneycouch0 13y ago
    From the repo: "Riot is a manifesto for vanilla JavaScript and jQuery." I think that's really the point. Rejecting the idea of these big frameworks and promoting vanilla JS.. Rejecting the myth that without big frameworks your code is unmanageable.
kevincennis 13y ago
Issue #1: Arguments object has no method `slice`. Steps to repro: Invoke the constructor. I'll send a PR as soon as this makes it to Github. -------- In all seriousness though, I completely agree with you.
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  The revolution will be open sourced. https://github.com/ChrisAntaki/revolution https://github.com/ChrisAntaki/revolution

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cdata 13y ago

The problems with writing client side JavaScript on a big project have little to do with the m.o. of your framework, but they are heavily affected by the manageability of the code you produce. Jeremy's point is that the framework is snake oil, and he is right. You will spend effectively just as much time ensuring your code is manageable without this framework as you will with it. It is mostly a wrapper around jQuery, and if you aren't the sort of JavaScript developer who can recreate this sort of wrapper in short order, you should strive to be (especially if you are taking on the task of authoring a large scale JavaScript application).