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I know it's been said before, but to reiterate: outrage doesn't help anything, but buying products from these companies DOES hurt. If you're truly outraged eno

I know it's been said before, but to reiterate: outrage doesn't help anything, but buying products from these companies DOES hurt. If you're truly outraged enough to want to take action, take action - writing to your representatives - donating to the EFF or other organizations - by not donating another $2k to Apple for a new Mac*, implicitly endorsing these bullshit tactics - not developing for those platforms (App Store, etc) Leaving comments here expressing outrage isn't really helping.

ekianjo 13y ago
"Don't buy Macs" is not going to work well around here. Most HNers develop software on Mac and see it as the ideal development platform. I'd say they don't care about what Apple does (it's not the first time Apple does that either).
- throwaway98604 13y ago
  I'm honestly starting to regret choosing to learn Objective-C now. I am seriously considering learning Android development and ditching my Macbook / iPhone for a Nexus 5 and some sort of linux distro. People like me are making this whole situation significantly worse by contributing software to Apple's platform.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    Good thing you realize it now. Better now than later. Do take action if you are serious about the philosophical implications of your work. Anyway, we can see that even in the absence of Steve Jobs, Apple is certainly serious about "going nuclear on Android". They'll follow their former leader's thinking even beyond the grave. That's sad.
    - serge2k 13y ago
      Probably because they can see what happened with PCs happening again. If they don't fight android with everything they have now then in 5 or 10 years they might not have the chance.
      - ekianjo 13y ago
        Their market share is already going away progressively. There's way more Android devices being sold than Apple ones nowadays. They still have a clear edge on tablets, but for how long ? I can't see how Apple's growth can be sustainable unless they come on new segments (just like they did with the iPhone and the iPad in the first place). Fighting to the death on existing segments is not going to cut it in the long term.
      - Apocryphon 13y ago
        All of this assumes that Android is Windows and that another open source platform, such as Firefox OS or Ubuntu Touch, wouldn't be available to pose any challenge to Android. The mobile sphere is probably dynamic enough to support such changes. If the FOSS projects in mobile work hard enough now, they can eat into Android's market share, at least in the developing world. We shouldn't consider Android's position to be unshakeable.
        Ygg2 13y ago
        Which is harder to nuke - a behemot of several billions dollars or a small non-profit company making browsers.
    - waqf 13y ago
      "even" beyond the grave? They're onto the desperate measures now because without Steve they can't hit their revenue targets through actually making better products.
      - fpgeek 13y ago
        The groundwork for these measures was laid a long, long time ago. Many of the patents Apple has used against Android OEMs have gone back to the mid-90s - when Apple v Microsoft was recent history and their inability to get "patent-like protection" from UI copyrights was fresh in Apple's mind.
        waqf 13y ago
        Yes, they have been prepared for this a long time. They could have launched this strategy any time they wanted. And I'm saying that the reason they're doing it now is because they're out of ideas.
  - pavpanchekha 13y ago
    I can't speak for Android, but the Nexus phones are nice and Linux can make a stellar developer environment. What with Android no longer being an ugly step-child, it's a good time to make the switch.
  - cageface 13y ago
    If it makes any difference I'd say Android development is mostly a lot more logical and sane than iOS, particularly now that Apple is shoving the tragic catastrophe of an API that is AutoLayout down everybody's throat. Don't let the fragmentation FUD scare you.
    - anko 13y ago
      What do you mean by fragmentation FUD? Are you seriously saying that android isn't more fragmented than iOS? There are 5 resolutions to support in iOS. For most purposes, there are only 2 versions to support. What's the situation like on android? Just because you don't understand an API, doesn't mean you should trash it. Writing APIs is hard. Last I checked I couldn't have more than 1 map on a screen on android with massive trickery.
      - eropple 13y ago
        > What's the situation like on android? Screen resolution is almost meaningless on Android. Form factor is what matters. Phone (1280x720 being the floor for remotely new devices), small tablet, large tablet.
      - cageface 13y ago
        I've developed several iOS and Android applications professionally and I've actually spent more time dealing with device-specific issues on iOS than Android. It's true that you do have to deal with different form factors and resolutions in Android but the tools the Android SDK gives you to deal with these issues are so vastly superior to what Apple offers that it comes as a wash in typical cases. I've been writing software for a living for fifteen years now and I've yet to encounter a more opaque, complex, and unpredictable API than AutoLayout.
    - _Simon 13y ago
      >Don't let the fragmentation FUD scare you. But we should all just accept that Google does no wrong by listening to a perennial Apple troll? Do me a favour! That's the problem with you open source terrorist; it all black and white. Google as just as bad as everyone else. They are not doing this out of altruism! If they were, we'd have the source for the Google apps on android, the search algorithms and web apps and they'd all be BSD, not the cancerous GPLv3! They really don't care about your silly ideologies. They care about revenue. That comes from advertising, which requires spying! For fuck sake man, THEY WORKED WITH THE NSA!!! They are pulling the same trick that Microsoft did with nascent IT departments; they convincing you that they are your friends. Hell, they already fucked consumers by giving power back to mobile companies. What is with you people? I frankly cannot believe the utterly childish language I'm seeing; especially from the likes of pg! I suppose you'll be telling me that Samsung are an example of a morally upstanding company next.
  - camus2 13y ago
    It has nothing to do with you buying a mac. It's basically big corps trying to shoot down each other,it's war. It will not end google search,dont worry,worst case google will have to pay a few billion but they can afford it. Remember these corporations are using patents as nuclear dissuasion tools,we are not really in patent trolling here.IMHO Google is not better than the rest.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      Google paying a "few billions" will impact their company as a whole: a few billions lost, means these billions are not invested somewhere else, and patents may have other insidious consequences, such as restraining the internal innovation at Google because of past experiences with Patent trolls. And as I said in another post, Google has a different stance on patents. So far, they pledged not to use them in an aggressive way. Maybe they'll change their mind in the long run, but they have not been very aggressive in that field so far.
    - pedalpete 13y ago
      However, what the original commenter is saying is that he is trying to make an impact against this action by not giving his money to the companies that are taking this action. Your attitude suggesting that company revenues have nothing to do with the actions of the company is simply suggesting that people don't vote with their dollars, or maybe that they shouldn't, which is wrong. Corporations exist to make money, if they make decisions you disagree with, you should not spend your money on their products. You should do what you can to let them know that reason x,y,z is the reason you're not spending your money with them. Enough of a groundswell and that will change. Interestingly in this case, if a large enough mass of people bought Android phones specifically because of this lawsuit, that is a double-wammy for Apple and Microsoft in the mobile space, and it gives Google a few dollars to pay for the patent suit.
  - chasing 13y ago
    Well, that'll show 'em. But seriously: This isn't an issue that'll be solved by buying one product over another. (I mean, if I understand correctly, this could impact your ability to actually get your hands on a Nexus 5 (or later) device if litigation either prevents them from being produced or makes them too expensive for Google to make. That's the whole point, right? To take the power to choose financial winners and losers out of the hands of the market. To make your decision matter less. That's one big reason it's shitty: It distorts markets regardless what you as the consumer want.) It's an issue with how our government treats patents like this. Buy your Apple product if that's the best one for you. Enjoy building with Objective C. Or work with Google's products. Whichever you want. But. If you're interested in changing this situation, I'd try recommend trying to get the attention of the one organization that really holds the power, here: The United States government.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      > If you're interested in changing this situation, I'd try recommend trying to get the attention of the one organization that really holds the power, here: The United States government. Well it's certainly easier to vote with your dollars than to change the state of politics. Politics are relatively stable in short-mid run, and even a large group of citizen has very little power to change that unless they get representatives of their own to run for and win elections with a clear no-more-patent-bullshit agenda. Net: it's not going to happen any time soon.
  - bstar77 13y ago
    This comment is ridiculous. The big players have been playing a patent chess game since 2007. Don't forget Google bid for these patents as well and it's completely ignorant to think they would have not exercised their billion $+ purchase. Google took the initiative a year ago with their Motorola patent portfolio, Samsung took the initiative with their FRAND patents, Apple took the initiative with their design portfolio, Microsoft took the initiative by funding SCO and suing android OEMs and now this conglomerate is taking the initiative with the Nortel patents. This is a war with many players willing to stifle the industry until this gets sorted out. All players are responsible, but this terrible system requires that you get involved and are proactive in protecting your intellectual property. Go sell your mac and get an ultra book. Go learn Java and ditch obj-c. But do it because you prefer those products, not because you think you are taking the moral high ground.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      If I remember correctly, Google has always said they would only use these patents in a defensive manner if they ever get them. http://www.androidcentral.com/google-pledges-only-use-open-source-related-patents-defensively http://www.androidcentral.com/google-pledges-only-use-open-s... That's very different from Apple or Microsoft.
      - bstar77 13y ago
        I disagree, microsoft tried to destroy linux by coercing companies to pay a bogus linux tax. Microsoft also footed the bill for SCO's case against Linux. MS' record is atrocious here. Motorola Mobility sued apple in 2010. Just last month Motorola filed a motion to reopen their case against Apple. Again, all of these companies are deeply involved in this game of patents.
        ekianjo 13y ago
        > Motorola Mobility sued apple in 2010. As far as I know Google acquired Motorola Mobility in 2011. So they had nothing to do with the original suit. As for last month's one, I don't know about the details. > I disagree, microsoft tried to destroy linux Where did I say Microsoft was clean ?
  - eonil 13y ago
    Go and do it right now. Experience them yourself. And experience Android yourself. Don't have a Android device? Don't worry, there's an emulator. And let's see whether you can say after that. Personally, I lost all the technical/engineering respect on Google people after that.
- yuhong 13y ago
  And Apple is not the only company in this consortium
  - subsection1h 13y ago
    True, but Apple paid $2.6 billion of the $4.5 billion.[1] [1] http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/10/31/google-samsung-and-others-sued-by-rockstar-consortium-over-nortel-patents http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/10/31/google-samsung-and...
- dchichkov 13y ago
  Linux is an ideal development platform. Mac is an ideal procrastination platform ;)
  - Munksgaard 13y ago
    With the amount of procrastination that happens on my Linux computer, I fear the day I'll have to work on a Mac...
- cheald 13y ago
  With the exception of iOS developers, I think that most developers would find that development is actually much nicer in Linux than it is in OS X. The amount of pain involved in setting up a coherent development environment in OS X is almost comical after setting up an equivalent in Ubuntu or Fedora.
  - redthrowaway 13y ago
    >The amount of pain involved in setting up a coherent development environment in OS X is almost comical after setting up an equivalent in Ubuntu or Fedora. For what kind of development? Web dev is pretty damn straightforward and pain-free.
    - cheald 13y ago
      Well, setting up a working Rails install involves, among other things, installing homebrew, xcode, xcode command tools, apple-gcc42, and then manually symlinking all your gcc binaries to the homebrew versions rather than the xcode versions, for example, then making sure that you get certain binaries compiled with certain compilers, lest everything just break horribly down the road, at which point you have to manually rip it all out and re-do it the right way, because accidentally invoking the wrong gcc binary will hose your whole install. Homebrew makes it work, but you're basically at the mercy of this third-party package system to keep things working, because the OS itself is broken for this kind of work. Apple not shipping anything that is GPLv3 means that you have to rely on homebrew, which works great except for when it doesn't, and you end up six hours deep into troubleshooting it. We've run into numerous edge cases where things don't quite work right in OS X, even though it's ostensibly still a POSIX toolchain. The number of hacks, workarounds, and kludges in our OS X environments far exceeds that which our Linux environments have to deal with. It's by no means impossible to set up, but it's a hell of a lot more complex than it's ever been for me on Linux. I run both a rMBP and a Fedora machine, and development/experimentation is a lot easier on the Fedora machine, because the whole OS is actually built around the concept of a sane package manager and standard library/compiler toolchain, and isn't crippled by licensing pathologies.
      - 13y ago
- panarky 13y ago
  Macs may be better, but this has gone beyond healthy competition. This is not right, and we must do what we can to stop it. Deploying this patent portfolio offensively can only postpone innovation. It's bad for customers, it's bad for the industry, and I'd argue it's bad for humanity. Coincidentally, Google released Android 4.4 today. It brings a modern browser with much improved battery life to older, less capable hardware. This is a win for people of average means, and it extends access to the world's information to people in developing countries that wouldn't have had the opportunity on more expensive hardware. Would we be where we are today without Android? Use the patents as a defense against patent troll attacks. But when you become a patent troll yourself, you are now the enemy. Fuck Apple. Fuck Microsoft. I will do everything I can to avoid their products, even if the alternatives aren't as good. They're both a net-negative for humanity.
  - eridius 13y ago
    Google's been abusing patents for a while (notably FRAND patents). Where was the outrage then? Why is it suddenly horrible for other companies to use patents against a company that has a history of abusing them?
    - yohanatan 13y ago
      Clearly he works for Google.
- csense 13y ago
  > Most HNers develop software on Mac I've never owned a Mac, and the last time I used one was in 2004. > ideal development platform The other day I wanted to apply the hqx filtering algorithm to some images, with proper handling of transparency. The code I found for this [1] uses the DeVIL image library. After some apt-cache searching, I found that I could do this: sudo apt-get install libdevil-dev libdevil1c2 I challenge you to compile this program on a Mac. Not as easy, is it? > they don't care about what Apple does I certainly do! Due to the fact that you have to pay a non-refundable fee to the App store and it's hit-or-miss whether your app gets accepted or stays accepted, I've decided to develop mobile apps exclusively for Android. [1] http://code.google.com/p/hqx/ http://code.google.com/p/hqx/
  - eridius 13y ago
    > I challenge you to compile this program on a Mac. brew install devil
- abecedarius 13y ago
  I stopped buying Macs a few years ago. I'm happy with my Thinkpad X1 Carbon, and apparently there are some nice newer machines too.
- Iftheshoefits 13y ago
  I guess you may have a point. The recent spate of postings regarding the HealthCare.gov website, which contain numerous comments about the front-end website and proceed to conflate that with development of the entire system lead me to believe a solid percentage of HNers live in a "all development is web development" bubble. Really until I moved to the Valley I had never really seen people I'd consider "hackers" or "programmers" writing code on anything other than a linux or unix terminal, or in Visual Studio, Eclipse, or some other IDE on Windows. I was actually shocked to see Apple products be so ubiquitous in programmer circles. Outside of the "web development is all development" monoculture parts of the Valley there is a wide world of software development and developer communities who would basically laugh at the notion that Mac is an "ideal development platform" (some would guffaw at the notion that it's even an adequate one) for anything other than the Apple App Store ecosystem (where it isn't really ideal so much as mandatory, if one wishes to not break laws). I'd make this conjecture: the vast majority of software development, in the Valley or otherwise, isn't done on Macs; it's really a very small subset of developers who prefer it, and that subset consists mainly of web app and iOS mobile app developers. If the majority of HNers develop software on Apple products, all that means is that HN's primary developer demographic is a tiny subset of the overall industry.
  - BrandonM 13y ago
    Our 7-programmer startup develops a webapp, and we do it on Ubuntu.
    - Iftheshoefits 13y ago
      Yep. I didn't mean to imply that all webapp development was done on Apple platforms, either. In fact, what I really meant, but worded poorly, was that it's really a very specific subset of the developer "community" that: a) thinks "all development is web development" and b) "web development" is ideal when done on Apple platforms. My experience mirrors what you have explicitly stated--most development, web app or otherwise, isn't done on Apple products.
deleted 13y ago
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regal 13y ago
The bigger outrage in smart phones is the fact that Android exists in the first place - thanks to a little industrial espionage on Apple's board. [1] I know where my wallet voting's going. [1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/robenderle/2011/11/11/you-the-jury-is-googles-schmidt-guilty-or-innocent-of-stealing-from-apple/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/robenderle/2011/11/11/you-the-ju...
- 37prime 13y ago
  I am Secretary Not Sure if I could read anything by Rob Enderle. Please find a better, umm more reliable source.
  - pkaler 13y ago
    Your logical fallacy is: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem Conveniently, there is a bullet point list of 5 items in the middle of that article. You are free to disagree with any of those points: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
    - vacri 13y ago
      Wouldn't referencing a website regarding fallacies in this manner be, in itself, an appeal-to-authority fallacy? :)
    - alextingle 13y ago
      Incorrect. If I read the article, and then dismiss the content simply because it was written by Rob Enderle, then that's ad hominem. On the other hand if I notice the article is written by well-known-fool Rob Enderle and don't bother reading it, then that's just good time management.
      - niuzeta 13y ago
        Would you mind expanding on Rob Erderle? I've heard not nice retorts on him but not quite some details and would like a few pointers.
serge2k 13y ago
but the screen on my new macbook is so nice :( Besides, google isn't exactly a wonderful company lately. Their ads and related policies, ugh.
- waqf 13y ago
  Have you seen the screen on the Chromebook Pixel?
  - 72deluxe 13y ago
    It is good, but have you seen the lack of storage? I am sure I have USB keys with larger storage, and I have more MP3s than will fit on its storage. It is abysmal.
    - waqf 13y ago
      They're pretty upfront about intending you to use Google Drive for your storage. So you should focus your critique on explaining why Drive is inadequate.
- alextingle 13y ago
  Really? I thought all Apple monitors had horrible glossy surfaces.
realcul 13y ago
Well to be fair then it should include google/motorola as well in the boycott... their hands are not clean either. Motorola has lawsuit against Microsoft/Apple on standards essential patents. folks should go buy fireOS phone/develop for it etc...looks like they are the only clean ones of the bunch.
richtr 13y ago
This inspired me to create a 'buycott' that people can join to show their dissatisfaction with these patent trolling tactics: http://buycott.com/campaign/699/boycott-rockstar-s-weaponization-of-acquired-nortel-patents http://buycott.com/campaign/699/boycott-rockstar-s-weaponiza...

ekianjo 13y ago

"Don't buy Macs" is not going to work well around here. Most HNers develop software on Mac and see it as the ideal development platform. I'd say they don't care about what Apple does (it's not the first time Apple does that either).

throwaway98604 13y ago
I'm honestly starting to regret choosing to learn Objective-C now. I am seriously considering learning Android development and ditching my Macbook / iPhone for a Nexus 5 and some sort of linux distro. People like me are making this whole situation significantly worse by contributing software to Apple's platform.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  Good thing you realize it now. Better now than later. Do take action if you are serious about the philosophical implications of your work. Anyway, we can see that even in the absence of Steve Jobs, Apple is certainly serious about "going nuclear on Android". They'll follow their former leader's thinking even beyond the grave. That's sad.
  - serge2k 13y ago
    Probably because they can see what happened with PCs happening again. If they don't fight android with everything they have now then in 5 or 10 years they might not have the chance.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      Their market share is already going away progressively. There's way more Android devices being sold than Apple ones nowadays. They still have a clear edge on tablets, but for how long ? I can't see how Apple's growth can be sustainable unless they come on new segments (just like they did with the iPhone and the iPad in the first place). Fighting to the death on existing segments is not going to cut it in the long term.
    - Apocryphon 13y ago
      All of this assumes that Android is Windows and that another open source platform, such as Firefox OS or Ubuntu Touch, wouldn't be available to pose any challenge to Android. The mobile sphere is probably dynamic enough to support such changes. If the FOSS projects in mobile work hard enough now, they can eat into Android's market share, at least in the developing world. We shouldn't consider Android's position to be unshakeable.
      - Ygg2 13y ago
        Which is harder to nuke - a behemot of several billions dollars or a small non-profit company making browsers.
  - waqf 13y ago
    "even" beyond the grave? They're onto the desperate measures now because without Steve they can't hit their revenue targets through actually making better products.
    - fpgeek 13y ago
      The groundwork for these measures was laid a long, long time ago. Many of the patents Apple has used against Android OEMs have gone back to the mid-90s - when Apple v Microsoft was recent history and their inability to get "patent-like protection" from UI copyrights was fresh in Apple's mind.
      - waqf 13y ago
        Yes, they have been prepared for this a long time. They could have launched this strategy any time they wanted. And I'm saying that the reason they're doing it now is because they're out of ideas.
- pavpanchekha 13y ago
  I can't speak for Android, but the Nexus phones are nice and Linux can make a stellar developer environment. What with Android no longer being an ugly step-child, it's a good time to make the switch.
- cageface 13y ago
  If it makes any difference I'd say Android development is mostly a lot more logical and sane than iOS, particularly now that Apple is shoving the tragic catastrophe of an API that is AutoLayout down everybody's throat. Don't let the fragmentation FUD scare you.
  - anko 13y ago
    What do you mean by fragmentation FUD? Are you seriously saying that android isn't more fragmented than iOS? There are 5 resolutions to support in iOS. For most purposes, there are only 2 versions to support. What's the situation like on android? Just because you don't understand an API, doesn't mean you should trash it. Writing APIs is hard. Last I checked I couldn't have more than 1 map on a screen on android with massive trickery.
    - eropple 13y ago
      > What's the situation like on android? Screen resolution is almost meaningless on Android. Form factor is what matters. Phone (1280x720 being the floor for remotely new devices), small tablet, large tablet.
    - cageface 13y ago
      I've developed several iOS and Android applications professionally and I've actually spent more time dealing with device-specific issues on iOS than Android. It's true that you do have to deal with different form factors and resolutions in Android but the tools the Android SDK gives you to deal with these issues are so vastly superior to what Apple offers that it comes as a wash in typical cases. I've been writing software for a living for fifteen years now and I've yet to encounter a more opaque, complex, and unpredictable API than AutoLayout.
  - _Simon 13y ago
    >Don't let the fragmentation FUD scare you. But we should all just accept that Google does no wrong by listening to a perennial Apple troll? Do me a favour! That's the problem with you open source terrorist; it all black and white. Google as just as bad as everyone else. They are not doing this out of altruism! If they were, we'd have the source for the Google apps on android, the search algorithms and web apps and they'd all be BSD, not the cancerous GPLv3! They really don't care about your silly ideologies. They care about revenue. That comes from advertising, which requires spying! For fuck sake man, THEY WORKED WITH THE NSA!!! They are pulling the same trick that Microsoft did with nascent IT departments; they convincing you that they are your friends. Hell, they already fucked consumers by giving power back to mobile companies. What is with you people? I frankly cannot believe the utterly childish language I'm seeing; especially from the likes of pg! I suppose you'll be telling me that Samsung are an example of a morally upstanding company next.
- camus2 13y ago
  It has nothing to do with you buying a mac. It's basically big corps trying to shoot down each other,it's war. It will not end google search,dont worry,worst case google will have to pay a few billion but they can afford it. Remember these corporations are using patents as nuclear dissuasion tools,we are not really in patent trolling here.IMHO Google is not better than the rest.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    Google paying a "few billions" will impact their company as a whole: a few billions lost, means these billions are not invested somewhere else, and patents may have other insidious consequences, such as restraining the internal innovation at Google because of past experiences with Patent trolls. And as I said in another post, Google has a different stance on patents. So far, they pledged not to use them in an aggressive way. Maybe they'll change their mind in the long run, but they have not been very aggressive in that field so far.
  - pedalpete 13y ago
    However, what the original commenter is saying is that he is trying to make an impact against this action by not giving his money to the companies that are taking this action. Your attitude suggesting that company revenues have nothing to do with the actions of the company is simply suggesting that people don't vote with their dollars, or maybe that they shouldn't, which is wrong. Corporations exist to make money, if they make decisions you disagree with, you should not spend your money on their products. You should do what you can to let them know that reason x,y,z is the reason you're not spending your money with them. Enough of a groundswell and that will change. Interestingly in this case, if a large enough mass of people bought Android phones specifically because of this lawsuit, that is a double-wammy for Apple and Microsoft in the mobile space, and it gives Google a few dollars to pay for the patent suit.
- chasing 13y ago
  Well, that'll show 'em. But seriously: This isn't an issue that'll be solved by buying one product over another. (I mean, if I understand correctly, this could impact your ability to actually get your hands on a Nexus 5 (or later) device if litigation either prevents them from being produced or makes them too expensive for Google to make. That's the whole point, right? To take the power to choose financial winners and losers out of the hands of the market. To make your decision matter less. That's one big reason it's shitty: It distorts markets regardless what you as the consumer want.) It's an issue with how our government treats patents like this. Buy your Apple product if that's the best one for you. Enjoy building with Objective C. Or work with Google's products. Whichever you want. But. If you're interested in changing this situation, I'd try recommend trying to get the attention of the one organization that really holds the power, here: The United States government.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    > If you're interested in changing this situation, I'd try recommend trying to get the attention of the one organization that really holds the power, here: The United States government. Well it's certainly easier to vote with your dollars than to change the state of politics. Politics are relatively stable in short-mid run, and even a large group of citizen has very little power to change that unless they get representatives of their own to run for and win elections with a clear no-more-patent-bullshit agenda. Net: it's not going to happen any time soon.
- bstar77 13y ago
  This comment is ridiculous. The big players have been playing a patent chess game since 2007. Don't forget Google bid for these patents as well and it's completely ignorant to think they would have not exercised their billion $+ purchase. Google took the initiative a year ago with their Motorola patent portfolio, Samsung took the initiative with their FRAND patents, Apple took the initiative with their design portfolio, Microsoft took the initiative by funding SCO and suing android OEMs and now this conglomerate is taking the initiative with the Nortel patents. This is a war with many players willing to stifle the industry until this gets sorted out. All players are responsible, but this terrible system requires that you get involved and are proactive in protecting your intellectual property. Go sell your mac and get an ultra book. Go learn Java and ditch obj-c. But do it because you prefer those products, not because you think you are taking the moral high ground.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    If I remember correctly, Google has always said they would only use these patents in a defensive manner if they ever get them. http://www.androidcentral.com/google-pledges-only-use-open-source-related-patents-defensively http://www.androidcentral.com/google-pledges-only-use-open-s... That's very different from Apple or Microsoft.
    - bstar77 13y ago
      I disagree, microsoft tried to destroy linux by coercing companies to pay a bogus linux tax. Microsoft also footed the bill for SCO's case against Linux. MS' record is atrocious here. Motorola Mobility sued apple in 2010. Just last month Motorola filed a motion to reopen their case against Apple. Again, all of these companies are deeply involved in this game of patents.
      - ekianjo 13y ago
        > Motorola Mobility sued apple in 2010. As far as I know Google acquired Motorola Mobility in 2011. So they had nothing to do with the original suit. As for last month's one, I don't know about the details. > I disagree, microsoft tried to destroy linux Where did I say Microsoft was clean ?
- eonil 13y ago
  Go and do it right now. Experience them yourself. And experience Android yourself. Don't have a Android device? Don't worry, there's an emulator. And let's see whether you can say after that. Personally, I lost all the technical/engineering respect on Google people after that.
yuhong 13y ago
And Apple is not the only company in this consortium
- subsection1h 13y ago
  True, but Apple paid $2.6 billion of the $4.5 billion.[1] [1] http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/10/31/google-samsung-and-others-sued-by-rockstar-consortium-over-nortel-patents http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/10/31/google-samsung-and...
dchichkov 13y ago
Linux is an ideal development platform. Mac is an ideal procrastination platform ;)
- Munksgaard 13y ago
  With the amount of procrastination that happens on my Linux computer, I fear the day I'll have to work on a Mac...
cheald 13y ago
With the exception of iOS developers, I think that most developers would find that development is actually much nicer in Linux than it is in OS X. The amount of pain involved in setting up a coherent development environment in OS X is almost comical after setting up an equivalent in Ubuntu or Fedora.
- redthrowaway 13y ago
  >The amount of pain involved in setting up a coherent development environment in OS X is almost comical after setting up an equivalent in Ubuntu or Fedora. For what kind of development? Web dev is pretty damn straightforward and pain-free.
  - cheald 13y ago
    Well, setting up a working Rails install involves, among other things, installing homebrew, xcode, xcode command tools, apple-gcc42, and then manually symlinking all your gcc binaries to the homebrew versions rather than the xcode versions, for example, then making sure that you get certain binaries compiled with certain compilers, lest everything just break horribly down the road, at which point you have to manually rip it all out and re-do it the right way, because accidentally invoking the wrong gcc binary will hose your whole install. Homebrew makes it work, but you're basically at the mercy of this third-party package system to keep things working, because the OS itself is broken for this kind of work. Apple not shipping anything that is GPLv3 means that you have to rely on homebrew, which works great except for when it doesn't, and you end up six hours deep into troubleshooting it. We've run into numerous edge cases where things don't quite work right in OS X, even though it's ostensibly still a POSIX toolchain. The number of hacks, workarounds, and kludges in our OS X environments far exceeds that which our Linux environments have to deal with. It's by no means impossible to set up, but it's a hell of a lot more complex than it's ever been for me on Linux. I run both a rMBP and a Fedora machine, and development/experimentation is a lot easier on the Fedora machine, because the whole OS is actually built around the concept of a sane package manager and standard library/compiler toolchain, and isn't crippled by licensing pathologies.
    - 13y ago
panarky 13y ago
Macs may be better, but this has gone beyond healthy competition. This is not right, and we must do what we can to stop it. Deploying this patent portfolio offensively can only postpone innovation. It's bad for customers, it's bad for the industry, and I'd argue it's bad for humanity. Coincidentally, Google released Android 4.4 today. It brings a modern browser with much improved battery life to older, less capable hardware. This is a win for people of average means, and it extends access to the world's information to people in developing countries that wouldn't have had the opportunity on more expensive hardware. Would we be where we are today without Android? Use the patents as a defense against patent troll attacks. But when you become a patent troll yourself, you are now the enemy. Fuck Apple. Fuck Microsoft. I will do everything I can to avoid their products, even if the alternatives aren't as good. They're both a net-negative for humanity.
- eridius 13y ago
  Google's been abusing patents for a while (notably FRAND patents). Where was the outrage then? Why is it suddenly horrible for other companies to use patents against a company that has a history of abusing them?
  - yohanatan 13y ago
    Clearly he works for Google.
csense 13y ago
> Most HNers develop software on Mac I've never owned a Mac, and the last time I used one was in 2004. > ideal development platform The other day I wanted to apply the hqx filtering algorithm to some images, with proper handling of transparency. The code I found for this [1] uses the DeVIL image library. After some apt-cache searching, I found that I could do this: sudo apt-get install libdevil-dev libdevil1c2 I challenge you to compile this program on a Mac. Not as easy, is it? > they don't care about what Apple does I certainly do! Due to the fact that you have to pay a non-refundable fee to the App store and it's hit-or-miss whether your app gets accepted or stays accepted, I've decided to develop mobile apps exclusively for Android. [1] http://code.google.com/p/hqx/ http://code.google.com/p/hqx/
- eridius 13y ago
  > I challenge you to compile this program on a Mac. brew install devil
abecedarius 13y ago
I stopped buying Macs a few years ago. I'm happy with my Thinkpad X1 Carbon, and apparently there are some nice newer machines too.
Iftheshoefits 13y ago
I guess you may have a point. The recent spate of postings regarding the HealthCare.gov website, which contain numerous comments about the front-end website and proceed to conflate that with development of the entire system lead me to believe a solid percentage of HNers live in a "all development is web development" bubble. Really until I moved to the Valley I had never really seen people I'd consider "hackers" or "programmers" writing code on anything other than a linux or unix terminal, or in Visual Studio, Eclipse, or some other IDE on Windows. I was actually shocked to see Apple products be so ubiquitous in programmer circles. Outside of the "web development is all development" monoculture parts of the Valley there is a wide world of software development and developer communities who would basically laugh at the notion that Mac is an "ideal development platform" (some would guffaw at the notion that it's even an adequate one) for anything other than the Apple App Store ecosystem (where it isn't really ideal so much as mandatory, if one wishes to not break laws). I'd make this conjecture: the vast majority of software development, in the Valley or otherwise, isn't done on Macs; it's really a very small subset of developers who prefer it, and that subset consists mainly of web app and iOS mobile app developers. If the majority of HNers develop software on Apple products, all that means is that HN's primary developer demographic is a tiny subset of the overall industry.
- BrandonM 13y ago
  Our 7-programmer startup develops a webapp, and we do it on Ubuntu.
  - Iftheshoefits 13y ago
    Yep. I didn't mean to imply that all webapp development was done on Apple platforms, either. In fact, what I really meant, but worded poorly, was that it's really a very specific subset of the developer "community" that: a) thinks "all development is web development" and b) "web development" is ideal when done on Apple platforms. My experience mirrors what you have explicitly stated--most development, web app or otherwise, isn't done on Apple products.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

regal 13y ago

The bigger outrage in smart phones is the fact that Android exists in the first place - thanks to a little industrial espionage on Apple's board. [1] I know where my wallet voting's going. [1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/robenderle/2011/11/11/you-the-jury-is-googles-schmidt-guilty-or-innocent-of-stealing-from-apple/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/robenderle/2011/11/11/you-the-ju...

37prime 13y ago
I am Secretary Not Sure if I could read anything by Rob Enderle. Please find a better, umm more reliable source.
- pkaler 13y ago
  Your logical fallacy is: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem Conveniently, there is a bullet point list of 5 items in the middle of that article. You are free to disagree with any of those points: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
  - vacri 13y ago
    Wouldn't referencing a website regarding fallacies in this manner be, in itself, an appeal-to-authority fallacy? :)
  - alextingle 13y ago
    Incorrect. If I read the article, and then dismiss the content simply because it was written by Rob Enderle, then that's ad hominem. On the other hand if I notice the article is written by well-known-fool Rob Enderle and don't bother reading it, then that's just good time management.
    - niuzeta 13y ago
      Would you mind expanding on Rob Erderle? I've heard not nice retorts on him but not quite some details and would like a few pointers.

serge2k 13y ago

but the screen on my new macbook is so nice :( Besides, google isn't exactly a wonderful company lately. Their ads and related policies, ugh.

waqf 13y ago
Have you seen the screen on the Chromebook Pixel?
- 72deluxe 13y ago
  It is good, but have you seen the lack of storage? I am sure I have USB keys with larger storage, and I have more MP3s than will fit on its storage. It is abysmal.
  - waqf 13y ago
    They're pretty upfront about intending you to use Google Drive for your storage. So you should focus your critique on explaining why Drive is inadequate.
alextingle 13y ago
Really? I thought all Apple monitors had horrible glossy surfaces.

realcul 13y ago

Well to be fair then it should include google/motorola as well in the boycott... their hands are not clean either. Motorola has lawsuit against Microsoft/Apple on standards essential patents. folks should go buy fireOS phone/develop for it etc...looks like they are the only clean ones of the bunch.

richtr 13y ago

This inspired me to create a 'buycott' that people can join to show their dissatisfaction with these patent trolling tactics: http://buycott.com/campaign/699/boycott-rockstar-s-weaponization-of-acquired-nortel-patents http://buycott.com/campaign/699/boycott-rockstar-s-weaponiza...