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Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

210 points by pg 13y ago

nachteilig 13y ago
I remain surprised that the US hasn't adopted more of this sort of attitude toward immigration. Historically it's a country that's always been about taking the best talent from elsewhere, so I remain baffled that it's so difficult in modern days. Especially with 'silicon valley' being located in America.
aashaykumar92 13y ago
Even Boerries says it will still take a long time for a 'techie' to acquire a Visa, Germany just offers a simpler application process and is fastER than that of Americas. And even if the time it takes to get a Visa is close to similar, it comes down to a debate between being in Silicon Valley vs. Berlin...despite the so-called saturation of startups in the valley, the reality is opportunity is far greater in the valley than anywhere else. Silicon Valley wins IMO.
- rsynnott 13y ago
  Remember, though, that Germany's in the EU; that's a big pool of people who don't require a visa at all.
- kops 13y ago
  Getting a US visa is one thing, but what about tolerating the thought of someone putting their hands up your ass at the port of entry :-(
cbhl 13y ago
This story reminds me of those "Pivot to Canada" billboards you sometimes see in the valley.
chimeracoder 13y ago
Visas deter US-based startups from hiring foreign talent, but on the flip side, US taxation laws deter US-based talent from leaving the country. I would love the idea of working for a startup in Berlin, but to make financially comparable, I'd have to be paid about 30% more[0] just to offset the cost of paying double taxes (both to the US, and to Germany). I'm ignoring factors like COLA, other expenses, etc., but for a US citizen this is a major deterrent to living abroad, even temporarily. I guess a cynic would say that this is just the system "working as intended", though that just raises the question of whose intentions it's working for. I would love to live in a foreign country for a few years in my 20s (the easiest time to do it), and assuming I eventually move back, the US will already get a cut of any foreign income I made via sales tax (when I spend it), capital gains (when I invest it), and (eventually) the estate tax. [0] Edit: Apparently this figure is off - see discussion below. The tax/financial implications still do appear to be a hurdle, it's just (unsurprisingly) even more complicated than I realized.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  Any taxes you pay out of the US are credited against your US tax liability. http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Tax-Credit http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Forei...
- rb2k_ 13y ago
  > US taxation laws deter US-based talent from leaving the country They do? I know Americans still have to pay taxes while living abroad, but they can exclude up to $97600 per year from their US taxable income which is a nice start. (And that "Earned Income Exclusion" is rising every year: http://taxes.about.com/od/taxhelp/a/ForeignIncome_3.htm http://taxes.about.com/od/taxhelp/a/ForeignIncome_3.htm)
  - gst 13y ago
    Isn't there a tax treaty between Germany and the United States to avoid double taxation?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
parennoob 13y ago
As someone who is a non-US citizen going through the tortuous process of acquiring permanent residency in the US (estimated time: 8-10 years), I will advise any international people looking for their first job -- if you can get one in Berlin, Canada, or elsewhere, take it. The US immigration system is fraught with bureaucracy, and is structured such that employers have strong incentives to delay your application for permanent residency for as long as possible. This, combined with per-country caps on green cards, makes for a process where you spend a decade or more in a country as an "alien" when you are working there and paying large amounts of taxes towards a Social Security system etc. that you have no chance of using in your present state. (To be fair, there is a fair bit of reform in this system that has been proposed by Congress, but with the current state it is in, it could be years before those bills are passed and made into laws.)
- pucallpa 13y ago
  this ^^^ I worked in canada for a year and was offered to stay, my permanent residency would have been granted after 6 months and citizenship in 2 years. After 5 years in the US, I'm on this situation, even after obtained a Software Engineering master degree in the US from CMU, my application is being dragged.
  - levosmetalo 13y ago
    That's why there's no rational reason experienced developer who have a wife and kids will choose USA over Germany. In USA he would first need to wait at least one year until his family can arrive, then wait for 5 or more years to get permanent residency (Green Card) in which period his wife will not have permission to work, and he would be unable to plan his future in any significant way because he would live on the edge of deportation if his current employer decide he doesn't work (good/hard/long) enough. That's at least six years of limbo in someones' life. It might be ok for singles with no kids, but noone else. Compare that to Germany where it takes at most 3 months to be completely settled with the family where wife also gets work permit, and children can start getting child benefits and going to state subsided kindergartens from the get go. I would start thinking about moving to US if and only if I would get Green Card from the start, but even then I'm not sure I would change EU(ropean) way of life for 50+ work weeks, one week of vacation and no payed sick or parental leave, super expensive education and no universal health care.
kellysutton 13y ago
Having built the first version of LayerVault in Berlin, it was remarkable to see how many expats were building companies there. It's also much more affordable than your more traditional hubs. I can't recommend Berlin enough, especially for building an MVP.
- lgieron 13y ago
  You can also build it in, like, your home town. I don't get this obsession with moving to a startup hub before there's even most remote proof of your startup's viability. To me, it always raises the suspicion that one's less interested in actually building the business and more interested in living inside the movie The Social Network.
  - kmfrk 13y ago
    "Let them come, and they will build it." :)
  - oscargrouch 13y ago
    I think is the same phenomenon that happen to a lot wannabe-writers or painters; they would move to Paris or New York, just to feel they were real Van Goghs or Proust's :)
    - lsc 13y ago
      >I think is the same phenomenon that happen to a lot wannabe-writers or painters; they would move to Paris or New York, just to feel they were real Van Goghs or Proust's :) It's nice to be around people who value the things you value. It's nice to have friends you can talk to who understand what you are going through. I know for me, it's nice to be around people who are impressed when I do things that I feel are impressive, and it's nice to be around people who are better than I am. I mean, yeah, there is a tech scene in davis and in sacramento... but it is a much 'smaller pond' - it really is pretty cool to be able to rub shoulders with the leading voices of your industry, and that's way easier to do here. In a very real sense, you /can/ come rub shoulders with Van Gogh or Proust here, I mean, figuratively speaking. Many of the leading figures in the industry. Maybe you think wanting that is silly, but... yeah, some of us are really into that sort of thing. I am in silicon valley, mostly for the social reasons you mention. I think that's valid, and it's worth the extra money for me. It's not worth the extra money for some other people, an that's fine too, but this is what I want to spend my money on, and I feel that I'm getting a reasonable value out of the deal. (There is also monetary advantages... but if I'm being honest with myself, I'm mostly here for the social advantages.)
janus 13y ago
As a argentinian programmer with italian citizenship that is considering leaving the country for Europe, are there any sites / forums or communities where I can contact startups or companies residing in Berlin? I'm a web developer with experience in Ruby, Rails and Javascript
- spariev 13y ago
  You may want to take a look at http://berlinstartupjobs.com http://berlinstartupjobs.com
- Argorak 13y ago
  Contact the Ruby Berlin Community (either through RUG::B or Ruby Berlin e.V.). We have members that are in a similar situation like you and will definitely be able to help you out. Also, there is a surprising number of Berliners going to RubyConf AR. That would be a nice place to meet people.
hbharadwaj 13y ago
Added to the fact that people coming from India and China don't have options like DV list, O1 and are sort of ill-treated and are looked down upon, etc., - I owe a lot of gratitude to the outsourcing and loan staff boom. Thanks Infosys, Wipro, etc., Can someone comment on how London compares with Berlin?
nchuhoai 13y ago
Just to chip in on the Berlin train. As OP stated, it's fairly easy to get a visa, but you might not even need one. I know tons of people who have no official visa whatsoever, are just there on a tourist visa, which really is just a simple stamp at the border. No one really cares. Usual talking points include the low living costs but relatively high standard of living, making it the ideal ground for people in their 20s-30s trying to get something off the ground. Can't really comment on what happens once you get off the ground, generally Germany is just a bureaucracy if not worse than the US. Also, it's super hip to hate on all the newcomers to Berlin and how Berlin becomes no hip no more. Funny thing is that most of them have barely been a year or two in Berlin. As born-and-raised Berliner, I reserve myself the right to shit on the influx of people.
- freehunter 13y ago
  If I were seeking citizenship in Germany but had only been in the country on the tourist visa, does the (5 year?) timer start from when I arrived in the country, or from when I get an official visa? You can work a job legally without a work visa?
CookWithMe 13y ago
> The amount of talent that I need for the problem that we're trying to solve NumberFour has an incredibly high turnover of talent, both from what I anecdotally hear from people who workED their (apparently no one sticks around for longer than a year...) and when looking online at their ratings: http://www.kununu.com/de/be/berlin/in/numberfour1 http://www.kununu.com/de/be/berlin/in/numberfour1 So, if you you want to emigrate to Berlin, please do so, but be aware that there are great and ... not-so-great companies here (like everywhere else). [Disclaimer: I shortly considered applying at NumberFour, but quickly dismissed it ]
gotrecruit 13y ago
as an aspiring foreign entrepreneur (to US), i have personally been through visa hell the past year. i spent almost an entire year going through the horrible visa process, and til today i'm still yet to receive one. i've been denied 3 times already and i highly doubt i will ever get one. i don't understand why america is so hostile to foreigners these days. for the record, i have a bachelor's degree from a respectable american university (the only visa i've ever gotten), i have no criminal convictions and i come from a wealthy 1%-er family from my country. i cannot see how i pose any risk at all to america by letting me in. i've very recently made my last attempt to return to US, and if this fails again, i will not try again and will be looking to canada instead where i will bring all the resources i have and try to start something. i hope to succeed, if only just for the chance to be in the news and say something to the effect of "America, you could have had all these taxes paid to you and all these jobs created by my company, instead you shut your doors to me and so fuck you"
tptacek 13y ago
German labor law has some features that might interact in interesting ways with startups. Germany lacks employment-at-will; it appears that disputed terminations can easily become lawsuits there (but German law also seems to have orderly mechanisms for resolving these disputes, which boil down to mandatory severance). German law has what appears to be a strict policy on hours worked per week and per day, and on working over weekends. German law has statutory maternity leave (which I think is unproblematic) but also a statutory 3-year(!) parental leave, during which time employees aren't paid but are entitled to their job on return. Are startups exempt from this?
- DangerousPie 13y ago
  Many of these rules only come into affect once a company has reached a certain number of employees, which I think is around ten. So small start-ups should be fine, but will have to observe this once they start growing.
- CookWithMe 13y ago
  Small companies (ten people or less) are exempt from some of these laws, but if a startup grows to a certain size it's not exempt. They are, however, less of a problem for a startup then they may appear. While a company can't easily fire employees who've been employed for many years, new employees who turn out not to be a good fit can be let go within 3 to 6 months. Furthermore, it's much easier to fire people if your company is not making profit. A lot of the laws intend to protect jobs that would be cut to increase margins (e.g. outsourcing, hiring younger/cheaper workers, ageism, ...). If you can proof your company is financially in trouble, then this is enough reason to let employees go, and you don't have to proof they did something wrong. Work hours, as required by law, are usually ignored by startups (though one could argue that this is not a good thing...). Parental leave is a IMO a good thing, besides that career-driven employees who would want to work in a startup will not take a 3-year leave.
- stingraycharles 13y ago
  > German law has what appears to be a strict policy on hours worked per week and per day, and on working over weekends. If it's anything like over here in The Netherlands (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), this will have very little interactions with startups: you simply work regular hours on paper, but simply make a lot of hours in the evenings / weekends at home.
okeumeni 13y ago
This is controversial but it is my personal experience: As a non-white, living in Germany is hard; the level of bigotry and racism in my opinion makes the nuisance of the US visa system negligible. Most tech immigrants are non-whites so I think a debate over immigration should take into account the quality of life for the techies and their family. Sure the US still have a lot to do to improve its visa system, but the American way of life and its people, makes the US the most attractive place to go for non-whites techies.
- zobzu 13y ago
  its about the same when you're white vs non-white communities. And its the same for a large part of Europe, anyways.
- thex86 13y ago
  Same can be said for Canada. As a non-white, I have not faced any discrimination yet in Canada ever since I moved here ten years ago. Sure there may be racism but at least not in the everyday life and certainly not in the tech sector.
  - sentenza 13y ago
    Same can be said for West Germany. The horror stories are overwhelmingly from the former East Germany and Berlin. I'm not trying to defend what is going on "over there", but you have to realize that Germany is, in many respects, still not one country and will remain so for a very long time. Whenever you hear people speak of German unification, keep the following in mind: While we were incredibly lucky that there was no bloodshed, the people of East Germany were completely screwed in the process. More than twenty years after the beginning, it is misleading to speak of unification. What happened was an annexation. Every part of East German society was uprooted, down to the most minuscule. Massive labor migration to the west completely changed demographics, with many young women leaving but fewer young men doing so. Wherever you have conditions such as these in any European country, Skinheads and the like will start appearing. As if it was some perverse rule of nature. Maybe we're screwed. Maybe it is an emergent trait of European culture. I hope it isn't.
- 13y ago
CalRobert 13y ago
I clawed and scratched my way into Europe (Ireland) because I was sick and tired of my taxes supporting drone warfare and I didn't want to have to pay $2500 per month for an apartment so I could ride a bike to work. It's awesome. By all accounts Germany is even nicer, with a stronger economy, better cycling infrastructure, and cheaper rents. Honestly I'm not sure why you'd move to the US if Germany is an option.
- bergie 13y ago
  Also, Berlin is international enough that you'll get by quite nicely without speaking German.
  - simonhn 13y ago
    You need to be willing and able to learn German in addition to simply working in Berlin. Depending on your ability to pick up new languages, this can be quite a lot of extra work in the evening and/or weekends (it was for me). Not everyone can, or is willing to (e.g. in banks) speak English, or you may sometimes find yourself on the wrong railway platform, or having a long wait in the wrong queue when you cannot understand German. The big German cities I know well: Berlin, Hamburg and Munich are all very nice places to live and work.
    - bergie 13y ago
      Sure, things are nicer if you speak even a little German. I don't, and have been doing fine in Berlin. Other German cities on the other hand are a different story. Oh, and on banks... At least Sparkasse got me an English-speaking rep when I asked for one.
zobzu 13y ago
because Germany has good laws and Berlin is a big city, yet EXTREMELY cheap. The visa doesn't have all that much to do with it really. Most of the people in the US don' need a US visa, and guess what, more of the Europeans are close to Berlin. Crazy I know.
- jrockway 13y ago
  Most of the people in the US don't need a US visa I'd say about half of my friends in the US are not US citizens, and their most frequent topic of conversation is visas. If you want to just show up in the US and work illegally, that's fine. But if you want to do it legally, visas are a big deal.
  - zobzu 13y ago
    so you're saying half of the US population are not US citizens based on your experience? Sure. Right.
patrik 13y ago
The immigration policies in Berlin/Germany might be better than they are in the US, but they are _far_ from perfect. As someone from Berlin who went through the whole process multiple times from an employer perspective, these are my experiences: When you hire someone from the EU: No problems at all. When someone is from another “western” country (USA, Australia, etc.): Things take some more time and are a bit of a hassle, but are basically OK. Everything else: Big problems. Unless you are formally really well qualified, a work permit is pretty hard to attain. If it is even possible at all, it definitely takes a lot of time and energy from everyone involved.
kriro 13y ago
Most importantly (imo) Berlin is a European capital with fun stuff to do and very affordable rent and cost of living. The location is also decent as it is attractive for many eastern Europeans who tend to be well trained and not hyperexpensive.
- Argorak 13y ago
  This is changing. Rents in Berlin are rising by more than 10% each year in most areas.
anovikov 13y ago
No details as usual. Can i immigrate to Germany as a self-employed?
- CalRobert 13y ago
  Not sure about Germany, but if you're from the US look up "Dutch American Friendship Treaty" if the Netherlands strikes your fancy.
Aloisius 13y ago
US Visa laws are certainly hard, but there is a positive side (for the US at least): only those that are highly motivated to move here make it through the process. This really does bias the types of immigrants we get. As much as people might complain about immigrants coming in and then going on welfare, it just doesn't happen with any frequency. Instead, we get immigrants who come here and start companies at twice the rate of natural born citizens. Our labor laws also select for people who really want to work - at least compared to our European counterparts. I don't mean to say that people who emigrate to Europe don't want to work, but the perception that you have to work longer hours in the US certainly does weed out the people who are overly concerned about working too much. As long as we continue to have people who want to come to the US, I can't see why we'd want to make the process easier unless we can continue to keep these filters in place.
- jkarni 13y ago
  Or: weeding out everyone who believes forms and bureaucracy shouldn't constitute a significant fraction of one's mental landscape, or who is offended by the extent to which the difficulty of the process makes it seem like the government doesn't want you here in the first place, or whose opportunities in other countries are close enough in attractiveness for the annoyance to tip the scale (presumably precisely the people you should most try to attract). Though "weeding out" or "filtering" to any real extent clearly isn't all that much of a priority when a large part of the system is a lottery.
  - Aloisius 13y ago
    Though "weeding out" or "filtering" to any real extent clearly isn't all that much of a priority when a large part of the system is a lottery. The green card lottery (Diversity Immigrant Visa) makes up less than 5% of the total green cards issued in the US. I'd hardly call that a large part of the system.
    - jkarni 13y ago
      I was thinking of H1B.
oscargrouch 13y ago
If you are a expat and want to create a startup in Berlin, how hard is it? what would you need? how hard is to get the visa? I've seen that France was creating a "startup visa" to help foreigners founders to create companies there. Is there something similar going on on Germany? Im realling looking over this, and was thinking about Berlin, Paris or Rio (on my own country) Edit: I also can go for the Polish citizenship as a polish descendant and get into the EU that way as another option
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- CalRobert 13y ago
  Edit: I also can go for the Polish citizenship as a polish descendant and get into the EU that way as another option That seems like the obvious choice. Do that. Then you can do this like any other EU citizen, and if it fails you're not worried about getting kicked out.
peterjmag 13y ago
I successfully applied for a work visa here in Berlin, and I was blown away by how quick the process was, especially in contrast to the stories I hear about the same process in the US. From submitting all the paperwork to getting word that my application was approved, it took a grand total of 7 days. I was expecting to wait at least a few weeks, but it seems that the new Blue Card legislation has really streamlined things. For anyone considering working in Germany, I would definitely recommend looking into the Blue Card, which offers some advantages over the normal work permit: - It's initially valid for 4 years. For limited contracts, it's valid for the length of the contract plus 3 months. - After 36 months with a Blue Card, you can apply for permanent residency (as opposed to 5 years with the normal work permit). This is lowered to only 21 months if you can prove B1-level German proficiency. - You can leave the EU for up to 12 months without losing your visa status (versus 6 months with the normal work permit). - After 18 months, you're free to live and work in any other EU country. Further details: http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/ http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/
- makmanalp 13y ago
  So what's the catch? What's worse about the Blue Card / why would you ever get the work permit?
  - arjunnarayan 13y ago
    I think the blue card is only for some restricted occupations (in tech, science, mathematics, etc.) and has a minimum salary requirement (of about 46k euros/year). Which shouldn't be a problem for the HN demographic.
    - guido4000 13y ago
      For IT occupations the limit is even lower: € 36.192 per year.
      - toomuchtodo 13y ago
        For workers under 29 years of age. 30 and above is something like € 52.000/year (at least for The Netherlands).
jobu 13y ago
Take note of the caveat at the bottom of the article: *"The Germans appreciate their visa-application process in comparison with America’s, but in the end, it’s still a slower process than many techies are willing to tolerate." German bureaucracy may not be the worst in the world, but it is significantly more convoluted than the United States.
spikels 13y ago
This is a weak article. The headline exaggerates the content of the article as is often the case. Based on anecdotal opinions of two Berlin techies who probably have an incentive to promote Berlin's tech scene. The conclusion is that the German visa process is still intolerable. Yet somehow the application process is better is some ways. Some details of the process would be nice as well numbers of visas granted and time frames would be very helpful. There are currently several big PR effort around US immigration reform[1]. Could this article just be part of that effort directed at Silicon Valley? Am I being paranoid? Edit: I'm for easier immigration and work visas but would like a more transparent and fact based discussion. [1] http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/10/24/republicans-for-immigration-reform-boost-effort-in-house/ http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/10/24/republicans-for-imm...
- k__ 13y ago
  Yes... The politicians try to sell Berlin as the Valley of Germany to the world, which it really isn't... Hamburg, Frakfurt, Stuttgart and Munich are way ahead of Berlin, but they aren't "hip"
- selmnoo 13y ago
  The submitter of this article, pg, is in fact a major contributor to the FWD.us intiative [1]. But it's probably better to assume there's a good faith basis in the submission of this article, since we've no reason to believe otherwise. You're very right that Berlin in recent years has been aggressively pushing itself as the next Valley (and I guess to some extent it is succeeding -- you're seeing a few big players emerge from there, Soundcloud being one that everyone knows about). The reason why it'll never be the next full-on Valley though, in my opinion (as another poster has already mentioned) is the racism there. As a brown guy who's been to a lot of places, let me tell you that there is racism basically everywhere but in America (and Canada). It is of a particularly sharp type in Berlin (and the rest of East Germany). It really puts a burden on you mentally when you have to make everyday life decisions (should I take the train at this time? alone? at $X place?) in efforts of just escaping harassment. For as much as I rail on America for the eroding civil liberties and all, I can not imagine leaving this place for any other. [1]: http://www.fwd.us/our_supporters http://www.fwd.us/our_supporters
mbesto 13y ago
Startups might like it, but investors don't. Bootstrapping startups might be favorable in Berlin on the other hand.
nerfhammer 13y ago
What about language barriers? Many German companies officially use English as their business language on paper at least, but how true would this be for startups?
- claudius 13y ago
  Standard in university groups is English if necessary (i.e. at least one person doesn’t speak German) and German otherwise. I would expect it to be roughly the same for highly technical startups.
- rafifyalda 13y ago
  English will get you by in Berlin. If the startup has international employees, then English will be spoken heavily inside the startup (usually). Outside of your startup, you'll want to at least learn enough German to be able to ask for things in a shop, order at restaurants. Though even if you were to speak in English, you'll find most people will be able to respond in English and help you out, but that depends on how far you travel. Once you start getting out beyond the ring (metro system), you'll find the level of English degrade. One tip when you start out here: Genuinely apologise to someone that you do not speak German in German, ask if they speak English in German, and they will almost always be happy to speak in English. Start blurting out loudly in an American-English accent and you may not receive the same level of hospitality. Source: Live and worked for a few startups here in Berlin, speaking from anecdotal evidence based on experiences from both German and expat friends
tokenadult 13y ago
I didn't see any official statistics in this Bloomberg article, which is unusual for articles on public policy issues from that publisher. Such statistics would be helpful for putting the individual statements by business owners in context. What do we know about the total number of immigrants who arrive in Germany each year under the visa status described in the article? How does that compare to the total number of immigrants who arrive in the United States each year under its visa categories mentioned in the article? As a matter of country-to-country net immigration, does the United States gain immigrants from Germany, or does Germany gain immigrants from the United States? (In net immigration between the two countries, do different categories of immigrants have differing net preferences for one country or the other?) It's really hard to figure out how generalizable the statements in this article are without more context like this. Statistics trump anecdotes, even though anecdotes are more compelling to the human mind.
- Aloisius 13y ago
  As a matter of country-to-country net immigration, does the United States gain immigrants from Germany, or does Germany gain immigrants from the United States? It is hard to find comparable statistics, but Germany claimed to have about 100,000 US citizens living there total in 2011[1]. In 2011, over 600,000 people who were born in Germany resided in the US[2]. 1. https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Thematisch/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/AuslaendBevoelkerung2010200117004.pdf?__blob=publicationFile https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Thematisch/Bevoelke... 2. http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Profiles.pdf http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Pr...
LetBinding 13y ago
What is the Big Data startup scene like in Berlin? I am about to graduate with a PhD in Machine Learning from a US university. I have talked to several Big Data startups in the valley but being a foreigner, the visa is a hurdle. But if this article is true, maybe I should look at the Berlin scene.
- brassybadger 13y ago
  There are lots of startups in Berlin, and the tech scene is flourishing. However, I always feel that companies here are behind the state of the art. There might be exceptions, this is just my impression when I go to meetups, presentations, or talk to colleagues (they have worked for quite a few different companies here in Berlin). That being said, there are quite a few companies that are into the big data business. Having a PhD will certainly make it very easy for you to get a good job here.
  - LetBinding 13y ago
    That's nice to know. Do you work for a Berlin big data startup too?
mahyarm 13y ago
One negative is if I want to immigrate and get citizenship, I would have to give up my original citizenship. It's too bad that the EU's start up hub is in a country without dual citizenship.
- levosmetalo 13y ago
  If your own country allows dual citizenship, you are not legally prohibited to get your original citizenship again after taking German. Germany doesn't explicitly prohibit their citizens to take another country citizenship, it just doesn't want to grant its own if you don't renounce all your old citizenships. IANAL, but know many people who did just that.
  - mahyarm 13y ago
    Unless your from the UK or EU which just lets you get it again relatively easily or the consequences very minor, many countries make you go through the green card song and dance all over again. It's a pain in today's international world.
- CalRobert 13y ago
  Plenty of startup activity in London, though immigration there is apparently an absolute effing nightmare. The fact that they drive vans around saying to get the fuck out (I paraphrase) is worrisome.
zura 13y ago
While we're at it, is it possible to opt out a pension/unemployment insurance from the income tax?
jacques_chester 13y ago
Australians have a special case: we can get work in the US on the E-3 visa, which is much easier to obtain than a H1B.
seivan 13y ago
Talent == Cheap labour.
altero 13y ago
I find it ironic that Germany emigration policy is considered friendly. I live in Czech Republic, but it was easier to move to Ireland than to neighboring Germany. Germany is very nationalistic state, it had number of exceptions from EU open space. Even now German Police searches vehicles with foreign registration plates (search is nearly disassembly). German law is VERY unfriendly to startups, and the taxes for companies and workers are very high. I would choose Ireland, Czech Rep or Poland over Germany any time
geebee 13y ago
This article prompted me to look into something I've been interested in for a while - what's the skilled vs unskilled breakdown in immigration for various countries? Canada and Australia, as far as I understand it, do emphasize skilled immigration, though not exclusively (Australia has a points test that I think the US would do well to emulate). I read a lot of praise for Germany's startup visa, but I'm also reading about hostility toward immigrants, boats of poor, uneducated (and most likely) migrants sinking off the coast of Italy or the shores of Australia... there's a lot of anecdote here (stories like that attract a lot of attention - but are they typical?). A really broad look would be interesting to read about. I actually haven't been able to find much about this, though - at least not on a nation-by-nation basis. It does sound like a difficult bit of data analysis, because the numbers themselves are tough to interpret (for example, would migration within the EU count as immigration, whereas Californians moving to Texas wouldn't?). Anyone got any good links?
jeremydavid 13y ago
Are there any Berlin startups in here willing to write a "Letter of Intent"? If so, I'd love to send you an email and explain more! (Basically, a Letter of Intent is a non-binding letter used to get a freelance visa that shows the applicant is capable of building connections - I intend to actually work on my own projects once I get in the door.)
ajju 13y ago
One day I will write about the tragi-comedy that was my route to being able to start and run a startup as an immigrant. Meanwhile, I want to highlight two things: (1) My wife, who has a graduate degree from one of the best schools in the U.S. and has been living in the U.S. for a decade, is currently stuck in Canada indefinitely because on her 3rd visa stamping they decided that she may be a security risk and they need to investigate her because she took an information security class in grad school 8 years ago. I am not exaggerating when I say indefinitely. They will literally not provide an expected timeline by which she will get an answer. She has met at least 3 individuals who have been stuck in this kind of limbo for over a year. The cherry on the cake: this is the 2nd time this is happening to her. The first time, after 2 months, they decided she was o.k. If you are going to use basic keyword filtering on an applicant's resume to flag them, at the very least you should learn from the false positives! (2) For all the bad press that the H1B program gets, at least 50% of the people I know who got an H1B after going to grad school in the U.S. have actively tried to start a startup. Most gave up on it because of the high risk of being kicked out in the U.S. since there is no startup visa. Would you start a startup if every time you left the country you risked not being let back in indefinitely? Most of my rational friends think I am crazy for taking that kind of risk. Think about it - even anti-H1B advocates who think these H1Bs are stealing their jobs should be happy to let these guys get a visa to start a company so that they are not "stealing jobs"!
aphelion 13y ago
It's things like this that make me wish Silicon Valley invested less energy and resources in nutty utopian schemes like artificial islands and more in lobbying for liberalization and modernization of U.S. immigration policy.
jmspring 13y ago
It is a bit off topic, but do people have a good reference to German government policy around self employment visas and laws? Realistically, via the wife (a German national), I could arrange necessary permits when we decide to move there. That said, I'd like to know what the self employment/self funding routes might be just to be better rounded in the whole approach.
tn13 13y ago
Please re-post this when some startup company successfully files billion dollar IPO.
vendakka 13y ago
I moved to Tübingen, Germany from the South Bay this week to move closer to my wife. I was able to establish a company and I'm currently working for my company. While I needed to work with a few German lawyers to navigate the legal processes, the whole thing was surprisingly painless. I was on an H1B in the US and it would have taken me close to a decade to get permanent residence and start a company that I could work for. For some context, I'm an ex-Googler and I've been part of the founding team of a successful startup previously. Despite all the above it would have been difficult for me to found a startup in the US and work for it. However, after a few months of applying to Germany I now have a registered GmbH, an approval for a Blue Card and I'm paying my bills through consulting. I should be able to start work on my startup in a short while once I have sufficient run-way to pay my own salary for a year or so. I just signed a lease for office space yesterday and I'm looking forward to exploring the German startup scene.

210 points by pg 13y ago

I remain surprised that the US hasn't adopted more of this sort of attitude toward immigration. Historically it's a country that's always been about taking the best talent from elsewhere, so I remain baffled that it's so difficult in modern days. Especially with 'silicon valley' being located in America.

aashaykumar92 13y ago

Even Boerries says it will still take a long time for a 'techie' to acquire a Visa, Germany just offers a simpler application process and is fastER than that of Americas. And even if the time it takes to get a Visa is close to similar, it comes down to a debate between being in Silicon Valley vs. Berlin...despite the so-called saturation of startups in the valley, the reality is opportunity is far greater in the valley than anywhere else. Silicon Valley wins IMO.

rsynnott 13y ago
Remember, though, that Germany's in the EU; that's a big pool of people who don't require a visa at all.
kops 13y ago
Getting a US visa is one thing, but what about tolerating the thought of someone putting their hands up your ass at the port of entry :-(

cbhl 13y ago

This story reminds me of those "Pivot to Canada" billboards you sometimes see in the valley.

chimeracoder 13y ago

Visas deter US-based startups from hiring foreign talent, but on the flip side, US taxation laws deter US-based talent from leaving the country. I would love the idea of working for a startup in Berlin, but to make financially comparable, I'd have to be paid about 30% more[0] just to offset the cost of paying double taxes (both to the US, and to Germany). I'm ignoring factors like COLA, other expenses, etc., but for a US citizen this is a major deterrent to living abroad, even temporarily. I guess a cynic would say that this is just the system "working as intended", though that just raises the question of whose intentions it's working for. I would love to live in a foreign country for a few years in my 20s (the easiest time to do it), and assuming I eventually move back, the US will already get a cut of any foreign income I made via sales tax (when I spend it), capital gains (when I invest it), and (eventually) the estate tax. [0] Edit: Apparently this figure is off - see discussion below. The tax/financial implications still do appear to be a hurdle, it's just (unsurprisingly) even more complicated than I realized.

toomuchtodo 13y ago
Any taxes you pay out of the US are credited against your US tax liability. http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Tax-Credit http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Forei...
rb2k_ 13y ago
> US taxation laws deter US-based talent from leaving the country They do? I know Americans still have to pay taxes while living abroad, but they can exclude up to $97600 per year from their US taxable income which is a nice start. (And that "Earned Income Exclusion" is rising every year: http://taxes.about.com/od/taxhelp/a/ForeignIncome_3.htm http://taxes.about.com/od/taxhelp/a/ForeignIncome_3.htm)
- gst 13y ago
  Isn't there a tax treaty between Germany and the United States to avoid double taxation?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

parennoob 13y ago

As someone who is a non-US citizen going through the tortuous process of acquiring permanent residency in the US (estimated time: 8-10 years), I will advise any international people looking for their first job -- if you can get one in Berlin, Canada, or elsewhere, take it. The US immigration system is fraught with bureaucracy, and is structured such that employers have strong incentives to delay your application for permanent residency for as long as possible. This, combined with per-country caps on green cards, makes for a process where you spend a decade or more in a country as an "alien" when you are working there and paying large amounts of taxes towards a Social Security system etc. that you have no chance of using in your present state. (To be fair, there is a fair bit of reform in this system that has been proposed by Congress, but with the current state it is in, it could be years before those bills are passed and made into laws.)

pucallpa 13y ago
this ^^^ I worked in canada for a year and was offered to stay, my permanent residency would have been granted after 6 months and citizenship in 2 years. After 5 years in the US, I'm on this situation, even after obtained a Software Engineering master degree in the US from CMU, my application is being dragged.
- levosmetalo 13y ago
  That's why there's no rational reason experienced developer who have a wife and kids will choose USA over Germany. In USA he would first need to wait at least one year until his family can arrive, then wait for 5 or more years to get permanent residency (Green Card) in which period his wife will not have permission to work, and he would be unable to plan his future in any significant way because he would live on the edge of deportation if his current employer decide he doesn't work (good/hard/long) enough. That's at least six years of limbo in someones' life. It might be ok for singles with no kids, but noone else. Compare that to Germany where it takes at most 3 months to be completely settled with the family where wife also gets work permit, and children can start getting child benefits and going to state subsided kindergartens from the get go. I would start thinking about moving to US if and only if I would get Green Card from the start, but even then I'm not sure I would change EU(ropean) way of life for 50+ work weeks, one week of vacation and no payed sick or parental leave, super expensive education and no universal health care.

kellysutton 13y ago

Having built the first version of LayerVault in Berlin, it was remarkable to see how many expats were building companies there. It's also much more affordable than your more traditional hubs. I can't recommend Berlin enough, especially for building an MVP.

lgieron 13y ago
You can also build it in, like, your home town. I don't get this obsession with moving to a startup hub before there's even most remote proof of your startup's viability. To me, it always raises the suspicion that one's less interested in actually building the business and more interested in living inside the movie The Social Network.
- kmfrk 13y ago
  "Let them come, and they will build it." :)
- oscargrouch 13y ago
  I think is the same phenomenon that happen to a lot wannabe-writers or painters; they would move to Paris or New York, just to feel they were real Van Goghs or Proust's :)
  - lsc 13y ago
    >I think is the same phenomenon that happen to a lot wannabe-writers or painters; they would move to Paris or New York, just to feel they were real Van Goghs or Proust's :) It's nice to be around people who value the things you value. It's nice to have friends you can talk to who understand what you are going through. I know for me, it's nice to be around people who are impressed when I do things that I feel are impressive, and it's nice to be around people who are better than I am. I mean, yeah, there is a tech scene in davis and in sacramento... but it is a much 'smaller pond' - it really is pretty cool to be able to rub shoulders with the leading voices of your industry, and that's way easier to do here. In a very real sense, you /can/ come rub shoulders with Van Gogh or Proust here, I mean, figuratively speaking. Many of the leading figures in the industry. Maybe you think wanting that is silly, but... yeah, some of us are really into that sort of thing. I am in silicon valley, mostly for the social reasons you mention. I think that's valid, and it's worth the extra money for me. It's not worth the extra money for some other people, an that's fine too, but this is what I want to spend my money on, and I feel that I'm getting a reasonable value out of the deal. (There is also monetary advantages... but if I'm being honest with myself, I'm mostly here for the social advantages.)

janus 13y ago

As a argentinian programmer with italian citizenship that is considering leaving the country for Europe, are there any sites / forums or communities where I can contact startups or companies residing in Berlin? I'm a web developer with experience in Ruby, Rails and Javascript

spariev 13y ago
You may want to take a look at http://berlinstartupjobs.com http://berlinstartupjobs.com
Argorak 13y ago
Contact the Ruby Berlin Community (either through RUG::B or Ruby Berlin e.V.). We have members that are in a similar situation like you and will definitely be able to help you out. Also, there is a surprising number of Berliners going to RubyConf AR. That would be a nice place to meet people.

hbharadwaj 13y ago

Added to the fact that people coming from India and China don't have options like DV list, O1 and are sort of ill-treated and are looked down upon, etc., - I owe a lot of gratitude to the outsourcing and loan staff boom. Thanks Infosys, Wipro, etc., Can someone comment on how London compares with Berlin?

nchuhoai 13y ago

Just to chip in on the Berlin train. As OP stated, it's fairly easy to get a visa, but you might not even need one. I know tons of people who have no official visa whatsoever, are just there on a tourist visa, which really is just a simple stamp at the border. No one really cares. Usual talking points include the low living costs but relatively high standard of living, making it the ideal ground for people in their 20s-30s trying to get something off the ground. Can't really comment on what happens once you get off the ground, generally Germany is just a bureaucracy if not worse than the US. Also, it's super hip to hate on all the newcomers to Berlin and how Berlin becomes no hip no more. Funny thing is that most of them have barely been a year or two in Berlin. As born-and-raised Berliner, I reserve myself the right to shit on the influx of people.

freehunter 13y ago
If I were seeking citizenship in Germany but had only been in the country on the tourist visa, does the (5 year?) timer start from when I arrived in the country, or from when I get an official visa? You can work a job legally without a work visa?

CookWithMe 13y ago

> The amount of talent that I need for the problem that we're trying to solve NumberFour has an incredibly high turnover of talent, both from what I anecdotally hear from people who workED their (apparently no one sticks around for longer than a year...) and when looking online at their ratings: http://www.kununu.com/de/be/berlin/in/numberfour1 http://www.kununu.com/de/be/berlin/in/numberfour1 So, if you you want to emigrate to Berlin, please do so, but be aware that there are great and ... not-so-great companies here (like everywhere else). [Disclaimer: I shortly considered applying at NumberFour, but quickly dismissed it ]

gotrecruit 13y ago

as an aspiring foreign entrepreneur (to US), i have personally been through visa hell the past year. i spent almost an entire year going through the horrible visa process, and til today i'm still yet to receive one. i've been denied 3 times already and i highly doubt i will ever get one. i don't understand why america is so hostile to foreigners these days. for the record, i have a bachelor's degree from a respectable american university (the only visa i've ever gotten), i have no criminal convictions and i come from a wealthy 1%-er family from my country. i cannot see how i pose any risk at all to america by letting me in. i've very recently made my last attempt to return to US, and if this fails again, i will not try again and will be looking to canada instead where i will bring all the resources i have and try to start something. i hope to succeed, if only just for the chance to be in the news and say something to the effect of "America, you could have had all these taxes paid to you and all these jobs created by my company, instead you shut your doors to me and so fuck you"

tptacek 13y ago

German labor law has some features that might interact in interesting ways with startups. Germany lacks employment-at-will; it appears that disputed terminations can easily become lawsuits there (but German law also seems to have orderly mechanisms for resolving these disputes, which boil down to mandatory severance). German law has what appears to be a strict policy on hours worked per week and per day, and on working over weekends. German law has statutory maternity leave (which I think is unproblematic) but also a statutory 3-year(!) parental leave, during which time employees aren't paid but are entitled to their job on return. Are startups exempt from this?

DangerousPie 13y ago
Many of these rules only come into affect once a company has reached a certain number of employees, which I think is around ten. So small start-ups should be fine, but will have to observe this once they start growing.
CookWithMe 13y ago
Small companies (ten people or less) are exempt from some of these laws, but if a startup grows to a certain size it's not exempt. They are, however, less of a problem for a startup then they may appear. While a company can't easily fire employees who've been employed for many years, new employees who turn out not to be a good fit can be let go within 3 to 6 months. Furthermore, it's much easier to fire people if your company is not making profit. A lot of the laws intend to protect jobs that would be cut to increase margins (e.g. outsourcing, hiring younger/cheaper workers, ageism, ...). If you can proof your company is financially in trouble, then this is enough reason to let employees go, and you don't have to proof they did something wrong. Work hours, as required by law, are usually ignored by startups (though one could argue that this is not a good thing...). Parental leave is a IMO a good thing, besides that career-driven employees who would want to work in a startup will not take a 3-year leave.
stingraycharles 13y ago
> German law has what appears to be a strict policy on hours worked per week and per day, and on working over weekends. If it's anything like over here in The Netherlands (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), this will have very little interactions with startups: you simply work regular hours on paper, but simply make a lot of hours in the evenings / weekends at home.

okeumeni 13y ago

This is controversial but it is my personal experience: As a non-white, living in Germany is hard; the level of bigotry and racism in my opinion makes the nuisance of the US visa system negligible. Most tech immigrants are non-whites so I think a debate over immigration should take into account the quality of life for the techies and their family. Sure the US still have a lot to do to improve its visa system, but the American way of life and its people, makes the US the most attractive place to go for non-whites techies.

zobzu 13y ago
its about the same when you're white vs non-white communities. And its the same for a large part of Europe, anyways.
thex86 13y ago
Same can be said for Canada. As a non-white, I have not faced any discrimination yet in Canada ever since I moved here ten years ago. Sure there may be racism but at least not in the everyday life and certainly not in the tech sector.
- sentenza 13y ago
  Same can be said for West Germany. The horror stories are overwhelmingly from the former East Germany and Berlin. I'm not trying to defend what is going on "over there", but you have to realize that Germany is, in many respects, still not one country and will remain so for a very long time. Whenever you hear people speak of German unification, keep the following in mind: While we were incredibly lucky that there was no bloodshed, the people of East Germany were completely screwed in the process. More than twenty years after the beginning, it is misleading to speak of unification. What happened was an annexation. Every part of East German society was uprooted, down to the most minuscule. Massive labor migration to the west completely changed demographics, with many young women leaving but fewer young men doing so. Wherever you have conditions such as these in any European country, Skinheads and the like will start appearing. As if it was some perverse rule of nature. Maybe we're screwed. Maybe it is an emergent trait of European culture. I hope it isn't.
13y ago

CalRobert 13y ago

I clawed and scratched my way into Europe (Ireland) because I was sick and tired of my taxes supporting drone warfare and I didn't want to have to pay $2500 per month for an apartment so I could ride a bike to work. It's awesome. By all accounts Germany is even nicer, with a stronger economy, better cycling infrastructure, and cheaper rents. Honestly I'm not sure why you'd move to the US if Germany is an option.

bergie 13y ago
Also, Berlin is international enough that you'll get by quite nicely without speaking German.
- simonhn 13y ago
  You need to be willing and able to learn German in addition to simply working in Berlin. Depending on your ability to pick up new languages, this can be quite a lot of extra work in the evening and/or weekends (it was for me). Not everyone can, or is willing to (e.g. in banks) speak English, or you may sometimes find yourself on the wrong railway platform, or having a long wait in the wrong queue when you cannot understand German. The big German cities I know well: Berlin, Hamburg and Munich are all very nice places to live and work.
  - bergie 13y ago
    Sure, things are nicer if you speak even a little German. I don't, and have been doing fine in Berlin. Other German cities on the other hand are a different story. Oh, and on banks... At least Sparkasse got me an English-speaking rep when I asked for one.

zobzu 13y ago

because Germany has good laws and Berlin is a big city, yet EXTREMELY cheap. The visa doesn't have all that much to do with it really. Most of the people in the US don' need a US visa, and guess what, more of the Europeans are close to Berlin. Crazy I know.

jrockway 13y ago
Most of the people in the US don't need a US visa I'd say about half of my friends in the US are not US citizens, and their most frequent topic of conversation is visas. If you want to just show up in the US and work illegally, that's fine. But if you want to do it legally, visas are a big deal.
- zobzu 13y ago
  so you're saying half of the US population are not US citizens based on your experience? Sure. Right.

patrik 13y ago

The immigration policies in Berlin/Germany might be better than they are in the US, but they are _far_ from perfect. As someone from Berlin who went through the whole process multiple times from an employer perspective, these are my experiences: When you hire someone from the EU: No problems at all. When someone is from another “western” country (USA, Australia, etc.): Things take some more time and are a bit of a hassle, but are basically OK. Everything else: Big problems. Unless you are formally really well qualified, a work permit is pretty hard to attain. If it is even possible at all, it definitely takes a lot of time and energy from everyone involved.

kriro 13y ago

Most importantly (imo) Berlin is a European capital with fun stuff to do and very affordable rent and cost of living. The location is also decent as it is attractive for many eastern Europeans who tend to be well trained and not hyperexpensive.

Argorak 13y ago
This is changing. Rents in Berlin are rising by more than 10% each year in most areas.

anovikov 13y ago

No details as usual. Can i immigrate to Germany as a self-employed?

CalRobert 13y ago
Not sure about Germany, but if you're from the US look up "Dutch American Friendship Treaty" if the Netherlands strikes your fancy.

Aloisius 13y ago

US Visa laws are certainly hard, but there is a positive side (for the US at least): only those that are highly motivated to move here make it through the process. This really does bias the types of immigrants we get. As much as people might complain about immigrants coming in and then going on welfare, it just doesn't happen with any frequency. Instead, we get immigrants who come here and start companies at twice the rate of natural born citizens. Our labor laws also select for people who really want to work - at least compared to our European counterparts. I don't mean to say that people who emigrate to Europe don't want to work, but the perception that you have to work longer hours in the US certainly does weed out the people who are overly concerned about working too much. As long as we continue to have people who want to come to the US, I can't see why we'd want to make the process easier unless we can continue to keep these filters in place.

jkarni 13y ago
Or: weeding out everyone who believes forms and bureaucracy shouldn't constitute a significant fraction of one's mental landscape, or who is offended by the extent to which the difficulty of the process makes it seem like the government doesn't want you here in the first place, or whose opportunities in other countries are close enough in attractiveness for the annoyance to tip the scale (presumably precisely the people you should most try to attract). Though "weeding out" or "filtering" to any real extent clearly isn't all that much of a priority when a large part of the system is a lottery.
- Aloisius 13y ago
  Though "weeding out" or "filtering" to any real extent clearly isn't all that much of a priority when a large part of the system is a lottery. The green card lottery (Diversity Immigrant Visa) makes up less than 5% of the total green cards issued in the US. I'd hardly call that a large part of the system.
  - jkarni 13y ago
    I was thinking of H1B.

oscargrouch 13y ago

If you are a expat and want to create a startup in Berlin, how hard is it? what would you need? how hard is to get the visa? I've seen that France was creating a "startup visa" to help foreigners founders to create companies there. Is there something similar going on on Germany? Im realling looking over this, and was thinking about Berlin, Paris or Rio (on my own country) Edit: I also can go for the Polish citizenship as a polish descendant and get into the EU that way as another option

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
CalRobert 13y ago
Edit: I also can go for the Polish citizenship as a polish descendant and get into the EU that way as another option That seems like the obvious choice. Do that. Then you can do this like any other EU citizen, and if it fails you're not worried about getting kicked out.

peterjmag 13y ago

I successfully applied for a work visa here in Berlin, and I was blown away by how quick the process was, especially in contrast to the stories I hear about the same process in the US. From submitting all the paperwork to getting word that my application was approved, it took a grand total of 7 days. I was expecting to wait at least a few weeks, but it seems that the new Blue Card legislation has really streamlined things. For anyone considering working in Germany, I would definitely recommend looking into the Blue Card, which offers some advantages over the normal work permit: - It's initially valid for 4 years. For limited contracts, it's valid for the length of the contract plus 3 months. - After 36 months with a Blue Card, you can apply for permanent residency (as opposed to 5 years with the normal work permit). This is lowered to only 21 months if you can prove B1-level German proficiency. - You can leave the EU for up to 12 months without losing your visa status (versus 6 months with the normal work permit). - After 18 months, you're free to live and work in any other EU country. Further details: http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/ http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/

makmanalp 13y ago
So what's the catch? What's worse about the Blue Card / why would you ever get the work permit?
- arjunnarayan 13y ago
  I think the blue card is only for some restricted occupations (in tech, science, mathematics, etc.) and has a minimum salary requirement (of about 46k euros/year). Which shouldn't be a problem for the HN demographic.
  - guido4000 13y ago
    For IT occupations the limit is even lower: € 36.192 per year.
    - toomuchtodo 13y ago
      For workers under 29 years of age. 30 and above is something like € 52.000/year (at least for The Netherlands).

jobu 13y ago

Take note of the caveat at the bottom of the article: *"The Germans appreciate their visa-application process in comparison with America’s, but in the end, it’s still a slower process than many techies are willing to tolerate." German bureaucracy may not be the worst in the world, but it is significantly more convoluted than the United States.

spikels 13y ago

This is a weak article. The headline exaggerates the content of the article as is often the case. Based on anecdotal opinions of two Berlin techies who probably have an incentive to promote Berlin's tech scene. The conclusion is that the German visa process is still intolerable. Yet somehow the application process is better is some ways. Some details of the process would be nice as well numbers of visas granted and time frames would be very helpful. There are currently several big PR effort around US immigration reform[1]. Could this article just be part of that effort directed at Silicon Valley? Am I being paranoid? Edit: I'm for easier immigration and work visas but would like a more transparent and fact based discussion. [1] http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/10/24/republicans-for-immigration-reform-boost-effort-in-house/ http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/10/24/republicans-for-imm...

k__ 13y ago
Yes... The politicians try to sell Berlin as the Valley of Germany to the world, which it really isn't... Hamburg, Frakfurt, Stuttgart and Munich are way ahead of Berlin, but they aren't "hip"
selmnoo 13y ago
The submitter of this article, pg, is in fact a major contributor to the FWD.us intiative [1]. But it's probably better to assume there's a good faith basis in the submission of this article, since we've no reason to believe otherwise. You're very right that Berlin in recent years has been aggressively pushing itself as the next Valley (and I guess to some extent it is succeeding -- you're seeing a few big players emerge from there, Soundcloud being one that everyone knows about). The reason why it'll never be the next full-on Valley though, in my opinion (as another poster has already mentioned) is the racism there. As a brown guy who's been to a lot of places, let me tell you that there is racism basically everywhere but in America (and Canada). It is of a particularly sharp type in Berlin (and the rest of East Germany). It really puts a burden on you mentally when you have to make everyday life decisions (should I take the train at this time? alone? at $X place?) in efforts of just escaping harassment. For as much as I rail on America for the eroding civil liberties and all, I can not imagine leaving this place for any other. [1]: http://www.fwd.us/our_supporters http://www.fwd.us/our_supporters

mbesto 13y ago

Startups might like it, but investors don't. Bootstrapping startups might be favorable in Berlin on the other hand.

nerfhammer 13y ago

What about language barriers? Many German companies officially use English as their business language on paper at least, but how true would this be for startups?

claudius 13y ago
Standard in university groups is English if necessary (i.e. at least one person doesn’t speak German) and German otherwise. I would expect it to be roughly the same for highly technical startups.
rafifyalda 13y ago
English will get you by in Berlin. If the startup has international employees, then English will be spoken heavily inside the startup (usually). Outside of your startup, you'll want to at least learn enough German to be able to ask for things in a shop, order at restaurants. Though even if you were to speak in English, you'll find most people will be able to respond in English and help you out, but that depends on how far you travel. Once you start getting out beyond the ring (metro system), you'll find the level of English degrade. One tip when you start out here: Genuinely apologise to someone that you do not speak German in German, ask if they speak English in German, and they will almost always be happy to speak in English. Start blurting out loudly in an American-English accent and you may not receive the same level of hospitality. Source: Live and worked for a few startups here in Berlin, speaking from anecdotal evidence based on experiences from both German and expat friends

tokenadult 13y ago

I didn't see any official statistics in this Bloomberg article, which is unusual for articles on public policy issues from that publisher. Such statistics would be helpful for putting the individual statements by business owners in context. What do we know about the total number of immigrants who arrive in Germany each year under the visa status described in the article? How does that compare to the total number of immigrants who arrive in the United States each year under its visa categories mentioned in the article? As a matter of country-to-country net immigration, does the United States gain immigrants from Germany, or does Germany gain immigrants from the United States? (In net immigration between the two countries, do different categories of immigrants have differing net preferences for one country or the other?) It's really hard to figure out how generalizable the statements in this article are without more context like this. Statistics trump anecdotes, even though anecdotes are more compelling to the human mind.

Aloisius 13y ago
As a matter of country-to-country net immigration, does the United States gain immigrants from Germany, or does Germany gain immigrants from the United States? It is hard to find comparable statistics, but Germany claimed to have about 100,000 US citizens living there total in 2011[1]. In 2011, over 600,000 people who were born in Germany resided in the US[2]. 1. https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Thematisch/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/AuslaendBevoelkerung2010200117004.pdf?__blob=publicationFile https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Thematisch/Bevoelke... 2. http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Profiles.pdf http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Pr...

LetBinding 13y ago

What is the Big Data startup scene like in Berlin? I am about to graduate with a PhD in Machine Learning from a US university. I have talked to several Big Data startups in the valley but being a foreigner, the visa is a hurdle. But if this article is true, maybe I should look at the Berlin scene.

brassybadger 13y ago
There are lots of startups in Berlin, and the tech scene is flourishing. However, I always feel that companies here are behind the state of the art. There might be exceptions, this is just my impression when I go to meetups, presentations, or talk to colleagues (they have worked for quite a few different companies here in Berlin). That being said, there are quite a few companies that are into the big data business. Having a PhD will certainly make it very easy for you to get a good job here.
- LetBinding 13y ago
  That's nice to know. Do you work for a Berlin big data startup too?

mahyarm 13y ago

One negative is if I want to immigrate and get citizenship, I would have to give up my original citizenship. It's too bad that the EU's start up hub is in a country without dual citizenship.

levosmetalo 13y ago
If your own country allows dual citizenship, you are not legally prohibited to get your original citizenship again after taking German. Germany doesn't explicitly prohibit their citizens to take another country citizenship, it just doesn't want to grant its own if you don't renounce all your old citizenships. IANAL, but know many people who did just that.
- mahyarm 13y ago
  Unless your from the UK or EU which just lets you get it again relatively easily or the consequences very minor, many countries make you go through the green card song and dance all over again. It's a pain in today's international world.
CalRobert 13y ago
Plenty of startup activity in London, though immigration there is apparently an absolute effing nightmare. The fact that they drive vans around saying to get the fuck out (I paraphrase) is worrisome.

zura 13y ago

While we're at it, is it possible to opt out a pension/unemployment insurance from the income tax?

jacques_chester 13y ago

Australians have a special case: we can get work in the US on the E-3 visa, which is much easier to obtain than a H1B.

seivan 13y ago

Talent == Cheap labour.

altero 13y ago

I find it ironic that Germany emigration policy is considered friendly. I live in Czech Republic, but it was easier to move to Ireland than to neighboring Germany. Germany is very nationalistic state, it had number of exceptions from EU open space. Even now German Police searches vehicles with foreign registration plates (search is nearly disassembly). German law is VERY unfriendly to startups, and the taxes for companies and workers are very high. I would choose Ireland, Czech Rep or Poland over Germany any time

geebee 13y ago

This article prompted me to look into something I've been interested in for a while - what's the skilled vs unskilled breakdown in immigration for various countries? Canada and Australia, as far as I understand it, do emphasize skilled immigration, though not exclusively (Australia has a points test that I think the US would do well to emulate). I read a lot of praise for Germany's startup visa, but I'm also reading about hostility toward immigrants, boats of poor, uneducated (and most likely) migrants sinking off the coast of Italy or the shores of Australia... there's a lot of anecdote here (stories like that attract a lot of attention - but are they typical?). A really broad look would be interesting to read about. I actually haven't been able to find much about this, though - at least not on a nation-by-nation basis. It does sound like a difficult bit of data analysis, because the numbers themselves are tough to interpret (for example, would migration within the EU count as immigration, whereas Californians moving to Texas wouldn't?). Anyone got any good links?

jeremydavid 13y ago

Are there any Berlin startups in here willing to write a "Letter of Intent"? If so, I'd love to send you an email and explain more! (Basically, a Letter of Intent is a non-binding letter used to get a freelance visa that shows the applicant is capable of building connections - I intend to actually work on my own projects once I get in the door.)

ajju 13y ago

One day I will write about the tragi-comedy that was my route to being able to start and run a startup as an immigrant. Meanwhile, I want to highlight two things: (1) My wife, who has a graduate degree from one of the best schools in the U.S. and has been living in the U.S. for a decade, is currently stuck in Canada indefinitely because on her 3rd visa stamping they decided that she may be a security risk and they need to investigate her because she took an information security class in grad school 8 years ago. I am not exaggerating when I say indefinitely. They will literally not provide an expected timeline by which she will get an answer. She has met at least 3 individuals who have been stuck in this kind of limbo for over a year. The cherry on the cake: this is the 2nd time this is happening to her. The first time, after 2 months, they decided she was o.k. If you are going to use basic keyword filtering on an applicant's resume to flag them, at the very least you should learn from the false positives! (2) For all the bad press that the H1B program gets, at least 50% of the people I know who got an H1B after going to grad school in the U.S. have actively tried to start a startup. Most gave up on it because of the high risk of being kicked out in the U.S. since there is no startup visa. Would you start a startup if every time you left the country you risked not being let back in indefinitely? Most of my rational friends think I am crazy for taking that kind of risk. Think about it - even anti-H1B advocates who think these H1Bs are stealing their jobs should be happy to let these guys get a visa to start a company so that they are not "stealing jobs"!

aphelion 13y ago

It's things like this that make me wish Silicon Valley invested less energy and resources in nutty utopian schemes like artificial islands and more in lobbying for liberalization and modernization of U.S. immigration policy.

jmspring 13y ago

It is a bit off topic, but do people have a good reference to German government policy around self employment visas and laws? Realistically, via the wife (a German national), I could arrange necessary permits when we decide to move there. That said, I'd like to know what the self employment/self funding routes might be just to be better rounded in the whole approach.

tn13 13y ago

Please re-post this when some startup company successfully files billion dollar IPO.

vendakka 13y ago

I moved to Tübingen, Germany from the South Bay this week to move closer to my wife. I was able to establish a company and I'm currently working for my company. While I needed to work with a few German lawyers to navigate the legal processes, the whole thing was surprisingly painless. I was on an H1B in the US and it would have taken me close to a decade to get permanent residence and start a company that I could work for. For some context, I'm an ex-Googler and I've been part of the founding team of a successful startup previously. Despite all the above it would have been difficult for me to found a startup in the US and work for it. However, after a few months of applying to Germany I now have a registered GmbH, an approval for a Blue Card and I'm paying my bills through consulting. I should be able to start work on my startup in a short while once I have sufficient run-way to pay my own salary for a year or so. I just signed a lease for office space yesterday and I'm looking forward to exploring the German startup scene.