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Ask HN: What is your least favorite part of your favorite language?

15 points by joelS 13y ago

Complaints about a language usually come from people who dislike the whole thing. Those who are passionate about a language may be more insightful to its own shortcomings.

msluyter 13y ago
Python: one case where I believe explicit is not better than implicit is the explicit passing around of self. It just seems to add extra clutter to the code, as well as demanding a certain cognitive overhead in remembering that a function is defined with N parameters but is invoked with N-1. Perhaps there are good reasons for it, but generally I prefer java's implicit 'this.'
- rprospero 13y ago
  I'm not sure that it's a good reason, but the explicit self allows for weird intermingling of functions and members. For instance, class foo: def __init__(self,val): self.x=val def square(self): return self.x**2 #imperative way imperative = [foo(x).square() for x in range(5)] #functional way s = foo.square composed = lambda x: s(foo(x)) functional = map(composed,range(5)) print imperative==functional The explicit self allows you to treat member functions as generic function and compose them in a functional way. Now, most functional programming isn't necessarily Pythonic. However, given a proper compose function, I could imagine it being useful to mix a long chain of function and member calls without needing to make a distinction between the two.
bartonfink 13y ago
Javascript - null vs. undefined. What's better than one keyword for a nebulous concept? How about two! SQL - you SELECT fields before you specify what table they come from, so tooling is virtually impossible.
pjungwir 13y ago
Ruby: Why do we need procs, lambdas, and blocks? Haml: Hard to control whitespace around elements. SQL: Can never remember which date functions go with which RDBMS.
maerF0x0 13y ago
C# : It only runs on MS stack (dont give me Mono)
- majurg 13y ago
  iOS?
mark_l_watson 13y ago
Ruby: too slow. Love the language, makes me happy to code in, but compared with other languages I use (Common Lisp, Java, Clojure) it is slow. That said, for many applications execution speed does not matter.
vannevar 13y ago
The parentheses.
- taternuts 13y ago
  I found it a little confusing ready ruby code that omits parentheses, but sometimes I feel like a method call with no input params shouldn't need parens
hollerith 13y ago
None of the code I want to install on my hard drive is written in Scheme (except a Scheme compiler). Also, Scheme cannot practically be used as an interactive command processor and file-name-space browser like a Unix shell can. (Yes, I know about scsh; I do not like it.)
db48x 13y ago
Common Lisp: it's a 2-lisp Javascript: semicolon insertion Erlang: periods, commas and semicolons Clojure: not much, actually PHP: ugh, nearly everything Python: lambdas can only have a single expression Everything except Lisps: expression/statement dichotomy
yen223 13y ago
Python: The fact that the datetime object set to midnight evaluates to False.
stevekemp 13y ago
Lua indexes starting from 1 is a constant annoyance. Yes I'm used to it, and yes I remember, but it does always feel wrong.
andrewcooke 13y ago
Julia: 1-based indexing is annoying at times; a compiler would reduce waits on startup; error messages with multiple dispatch can be confusing.
rpedela 13y ago
Python: The import system. Why can't I easily import a file from any location in the file system? Javascript: Lacks support for 64-bit integers and arbitrary-precision decimals. SQL: SQL injection.
- Vaskivo 13y ago
  I agree with the python one. Some more things I find annoying in Python: - Hardcoded recursion limit + no tail call optimization. I understand Guido's reasons for this but I find myself writing ugly code instead of beatiful code. (But maybe changing this would make Python's internals ugly.) Mainly Python but other languages too. - Length of the collection: len(foo). String representation: str(foo). Why not foo.len() or foo.str(). Or even better: foo.len or foo.str. As a Python user, I'm not a fan of getters. I think we should use the "attribute syntax" to get data about and of the object/type/thing, regardless if it involves any computations or not. (but would probably generate more problems than solve little nitpicks)
  - chas 13y ago
    This doesn't help in quite the way you would like, but the recursion limit is adjustable through sys.setrecursionlimit [1]. [1]http://docs.python.org/2/library/sys.html#sys.setrecursionlimit http://docs.python.org/2/library/sys.html#sys.setrecursionli...
    - Vaskivo 13y ago
      The problem is not that there is a hardcoded limit. Python just isn't suited for heavy recursion. As for tail-call optimization, here's Guido's opinion (which I agree): http://neopythonic.blogspot.pt/2009/04/tail-recursion-elimination.html http://neopythonic.blogspot.pt/2009/04/tail-recursion-elimin...
- captainmuon 13y ago
  I second the Python one. Why the wierd distinction between packages, modules, and things in files? I believe all of these three should give me os.path.isdir: import os import os.path import os.path.isdir os.path.isdir(...) And to get isdir() directly, I would use either: from os.path import isdir import os.path.isdir as isdir This should work if path is either a package (a directory), a module (a file), or an object defined in os.py! Sometimes, for some reason if I only import a module, I can't use submodules. So `import os` wouldn't give `os.path.isdir`. I don't know when that occurs, maybe it was in an ancient version of python. But it leaves me with an uneasy feeling every time I use a submodule. Anyone know when this happens? Last but not least, it should be easier to import stuff from above the script. If my script lives at ./tools/foobar.py, and I want to import ./helper.py, it should just be something like # ./tools/foobar.py from .. import helper $ python ./tools/foobar.py # simple run-a-script syntax and not $ python -m tools/foobar # hideous run-a-module syntax or what I'm using now # ./tools/foobar.py # hideous boilerplate header import sys, os SCRIPTDIR = os.path.relpath(os.path.dirname(__file__) or ".") PARENTDIR = os.path.relpath(os.path.join(SCRIPTDIR, "..")) sys.path.insert(0, PARENTDIR) import helper $ python ./tools/foobar.py # simple run-a-script syntax
codegeek 13y ago
Python: self keyword
captainmuon 13y ago
Python: The fact that they broke the syntax with Python 3, splitting the language in two parts: one that is widely deployed, and one that is actively developed. I never had the luck to use Python 3 in actual work. If I could, I would make Python 5 (2+3=5), which is Python 3 but accepts all the legacy syntax of Python 2 (especially the print statement). I'd solve the str/unicode problem by providing bytes, str, unicode = python5.legacy_strings or bytes, str, unicode = python5.modern_strings that you would put at the top of the file. I'd make the modern strings builtin for system modules, or files with the .py5 extention. Problem solved.
kennethtilton 13y ago
Lisp: (mapcar 'funcall (loop for x below 3 collecting (lambda () (print x)))) producing: 3 3 3 (3 3 3 ) OK, it is the loop DSL that chooses to rebind the same variable over which I closed, but loop is in the standard so I'll blame lisp. The syntax really looks like a fresh binding. Shucks, this is almost a bug: the loop implementation was allowed to leak into the loop semantics.
zachlatta 13y ago
Go: no generics, the community is small, Go allows you to use functions as data (to some extent), but doesn't take advantage of this to the extent that it could. I'm relatively new to the language, so my observations may either be incorrect or not include the full picture. If anyone has anything to chime in or, I'd love to hear.
bennyg 13y ago
Objective-C: appending strings should be like every other language: NSString *result

15 points by joelS 13y ago

Complaints about a language usually come from people who dislike the whole thing. Those who are passionate about a language may be more insightful to its own shortcomings.

msluyter 13y ago

Python: one case where I believe explicit is not better than implicit is the explicit passing around of self. It just seems to add extra clutter to the code, as well as demanding a certain cognitive overhead in remembering that a function is defined with N parameters but is invoked with N-1. Perhaps there are good reasons for it, but generally I prefer java's implicit 'this.'

rprospero 13y ago
I'm not sure that it's a good reason, but the explicit self allows for weird intermingling of functions and members. For instance, class foo: def __init__(self,val): self.x=val def square(self): return self.x**2 #imperative way imperative = [foo(x).square() for x in range(5)] #functional way s = foo.square composed = lambda x: s(foo(x)) functional = map(composed,range(5)) print imperative==functional The explicit self allows you to treat member functions as generic function and compose them in a functional way. Now, most functional programming isn't necessarily Pythonic. However, given a proper compose function, I could imagine it being useful to mix a long chain of function and member calls without needing to make a distinction between the two.

bartonfink 13y ago

Javascript - null vs. undefined. What's better than one keyword for a nebulous concept? How about two! SQL - you SELECT fields before you specify what table they come from, so tooling is virtually impossible.

pjungwir 13y ago

Ruby: Why do we need procs, lambdas, and blocks? Haml: Hard to control whitespace around elements. SQL: Can never remember which date functions go with which RDBMS.

maerF0x0 13y ago

C# : It only runs on MS stack (dont give me Mono)

majurg 13y ago
iOS?

mark_l_watson 13y ago

Ruby: too slow. Love the language, makes me happy to code in, but compared with other languages I use (Common Lisp, Java, Clojure) it is slow. That said, for many applications execution speed does not matter.

vannevar 13y ago

The parentheses.

taternuts 13y ago
I found it a little confusing ready ruby code that omits parentheses, but sometimes I feel like a method call with no input params shouldn't need parens

hollerith 13y ago

None of the code I want to install on my hard drive is written in Scheme (except a Scheme compiler). Also, Scheme cannot practically be used as an interactive command processor and file-name-space browser like a Unix shell can. (Yes, I know about scsh; I do not like it.)

db48x 13y ago

Common Lisp: it's a 2-lisp Javascript: semicolon insertion Erlang: periods, commas and semicolons Clojure: not much, actually PHP: ugh, nearly everything Python: lambdas can only have a single expression Everything except Lisps: expression/statement dichotomy

yen223 13y ago

Python: The fact that the datetime object set to midnight evaluates to False.

stevekemp 13y ago

Lua indexes starting from 1 is a constant annoyance. Yes I'm used to it, and yes I remember, but it does always feel wrong.

andrewcooke 13y ago

Julia: 1-based indexing is annoying at times; a compiler would reduce waits on startup; error messages with multiple dispatch can be confusing.

rpedela 13y ago

Python: The import system. Why can't I easily import a file from any location in the file system? Javascript: Lacks support for 64-bit integers and arbitrary-precision decimals. SQL: SQL injection.

Vaskivo 13y ago
I agree with the python one. Some more things I find annoying in Python: - Hardcoded recursion limit + no tail call optimization. I understand Guido's reasons for this but I find myself writing ugly code instead of beatiful code. (But maybe changing this would make Python's internals ugly.) Mainly Python but other languages too. - Length of the collection: len(foo). String representation: str(foo). Why not foo.len() or foo.str(). Or even better: foo.len or foo.str. As a Python user, I'm not a fan of getters. I think we should use the "attribute syntax" to get data about and of the object/type/thing, regardless if it involves any computations or not. (but would probably generate more problems than solve little nitpicks)
- chas 13y ago
  This doesn't help in quite the way you would like, but the recursion limit is adjustable through sys.setrecursionlimit [1]. [1]http://docs.python.org/2/library/sys.html#sys.setrecursionlimit http://docs.python.org/2/library/sys.html#sys.setrecursionli...
  - Vaskivo 13y ago
    The problem is not that there is a hardcoded limit. Python just isn't suited for heavy recursion. As for tail-call optimization, here's Guido's opinion (which I agree): http://neopythonic.blogspot.pt/2009/04/tail-recursion-elimination.html http://neopythonic.blogspot.pt/2009/04/tail-recursion-elimin...
captainmuon 13y ago
I second the Python one. Why the wierd distinction between packages, modules, and things in files? I believe all of these three should give me os.path.isdir: import os import os.path import os.path.isdir os.path.isdir(...) And to get isdir() directly, I would use either: from os.path import isdir import os.path.isdir as isdir This should work if path is either a package (a directory), a module (a file), or an object defined in os.py! Sometimes, for some reason if I only import a module, I can't use submodules. So `import os` wouldn't give `os.path.isdir`. I don't know when that occurs, maybe it was in an ancient version of python. But it leaves me with an uneasy feeling every time I use a submodule. Anyone know when this happens? Last but not least, it should be easier to import stuff from above the script. If my script lives at ./tools/foobar.py, and I want to import ./helper.py, it should just be something like # ./tools/foobar.py from .. import helper $ python ./tools/foobar.py # simple run-a-script syntax and not $ python -m tools/foobar # hideous run-a-module syntax or what I'm using now # ./tools/foobar.py # hideous boilerplate header import sys, os SCRIPTDIR = os.path.relpath(os.path.dirname(__file__) or ".") PARENTDIR = os.path.relpath(os.path.join(SCRIPTDIR, "..")) sys.path.insert(0, PARENTDIR) import helper $ python ./tools/foobar.py # simple run-a-script syntax

codegeek 13y ago

Python: self keyword

captainmuon 13y ago

Python: The fact that they broke the syntax with Python 3, splitting the language in two parts: one that is widely deployed, and one that is actively developed. I never had the luck to use Python 3 in actual work. If I could, I would make Python 5 (2+3=5), which is Python 3 but accepts all the legacy syntax of Python 2 (especially the print statement). I'd solve the str/unicode problem by providing bytes, str, unicode = python5.legacy_strings or bytes, str, unicode = python5.modern_strings that you would put at the top of the file. I'd make the modern strings builtin for system modules, or files with the .py5 extention. Problem solved.

kennethtilton 13y ago

Lisp: (mapcar 'funcall (loop for x below 3 collecting (lambda () (print x)))) producing: 3 3 3 (3 3 3 ) OK, it is the loop DSL that chooses to rebind the same variable over which I closed, but loop is in the standard so I'll blame lisp. The syntax really looks like a fresh binding. Shucks, this is almost a bug: the loop implementation was allowed to leak into the loop semantics.

zachlatta 13y ago

Go: no generics, the community is small, Go allows you to use functions as data (to some extent), but doesn't take advantage of this to the extent that it could. I'm relatively new to the language, so my observations may either be incorrect or not include the full picture. If anyone has anything to chime in or, I'd love to hear.

bennyg 13y ago

Objective-C: appending strings should be like every other language: NSString *result