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The Velvet Underground's career can be summed up as: "Commercially unsuccessful, but enormously influential". On a side note, if you have a few minutes to spar

by bbx 13y ago

The Velvet Underground's career can be summed up as: "Commercially unsuccessful, but enormously influential". On a side note, if you have a few minutes to spare, read Lou Reed's review of Kanye's Yeezus: http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/lou-reed http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/lou-reed It's interesting to read a legend's opinion on a modern pop-star.

selmnoo 13y ago
It is strange reading that about Yeezus, Kanye made Yeezus with a number of other musicians (the full list, according to Wiki: 88-Keys, Ackee Juice Rockers, Arca, Benji B, Carlos Broady, Brodinski, Ben Bronfman, Evian Christ, Eric Danchild, Daft Punk, Mike Dean, Dom Solo, Jack Donoghue, Gesaffelstein, Noah Goldstein, Lunice, Lupe Fiasco, Hudson Mohawke, No ID, Che Pope, Rick Rubin, S1, Travis Scott, and Sham Joseph). So, when he's praising the horns line, the piano line, or the complex electronic effects, it's not Kanye who's responsible for all of that, it's Daft Punk, it's Mike Dean, or Mohawke. Anyway, I'm getting unnecessarily off-topic here. So to get back: Lou Reed was undeniably an innovator like no other, a true hacker. He knew how to play a mean guitar (jazz, blues, rock'n'roll and a whole lot else), he wrote great poetry. The greatest thing that's said about him is, indeed, as another commenter already has said: "Only about 3000 people bought Velvet Underground albums, but all of them started a band." My two favorite songs of his: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffr0opfm6I4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffr0opfm6I4 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wNknGIKkoA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wNknGIKkoA
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  >> "So, when he's praising the horns line, the piano line, or the complex electronic effects, it's not Kanye who's responsible for all of that, it's Daft Punk, it's Mike Dean, or Mohawke." To bring this round to tech I guess it's similar to Steve Jobs getting credit for the iPhone when a lot of the work was done by the engineers. In other words Kanye had to bring those people together and guide the creation of the music or it wouldn't have happened.
- aneisf 13y ago
  I think you're too readily writing off the role of the producer in the case of 'Yeezus.' Classics like Steely Dan's 'Aja', Quincy Jones' 'The Dude', and, in hip-hop, Dr. Dre's 'The Chronic' were crafted in much the same way, a collaboration between producers with a grand vision and a cast of musicians who could see it to realization.
- justin66 13y ago
  > It is strange reading that about Yeezus, Kanye made Yeezus with a number of other musicians As with his music, Reed is assuming his audience isn't an idiot. In this case, Reed assumes that you can fully internalize what West's role was and understand his words accordingly.
- ssharp 13y ago
  Kanye has been pretty honest about his abilities as a producer. He was always a chopped-up samples producer and started bringing in musicians and other producers to layer original instrumentation over his samples on his first album. That style evolved with each subsequent album, with his albums prior to Yeezus being extremely orchestrated and huge. There is absolutely no-doubt that Kanye is the ringleader in this. He puts a bunch of people in a room, and while he may not be the person pounding the keys, but he's putting it all together and making it cohesive. I can listen to the Hudson Mohawke / TNGHT song that Kanye used in "Blood on the Leaves" and think it's an okay song. But the way it comes in on Blood on the Leaves with Kanye's rapping and the "Strange Fruit" sample left me floored the first few times I heard it. He made those TNGHT so much more powerful. Kanye's influence over rap is enormous (the singing rap thing that Drake and others are using really didn't gain mainstream attention until 808's) and he's extremely successful commercially. It's not accident, nor is it the simple result of others' work. It's the work of someone who is meticulous in his craft, knows his limitations, and respects the work of others while pointing them in the direction he wants to move.
  - xzel 13y ago
    "but he's putting it all together and making it cohesive" No, that was Rick Rubin who did that. So we know Kanye isn't a great rapper (he's had many songs Ghost written and I think its a pretty common belief among hip-hop heads) and you say he can't produce well? What can he do well? I don't have the time to go through it all unless you really want me to, but your last post was riddled with fallacies and pretty biased opinion. Lou Reed was something else, Kanye is what he made himself (a pop star). I doubt anyone's going to pick up a copy of Yeezus in 40 years and be amazed in the way people continue to pick up copies of The Velvet Underground & Nico.
    - twerquie 13y ago
      There are two meanings of "producer" at play here: a) he who cuts a beat, b) he who produces an album. Kanye was limited yet very successful at A, and he may be the best in his field at B. Kanye may not be the world's best rapper, but he is no slouch, and to be producing (both meanings) in the capacity he does at the same time is staggering. I like to tell people it's as if Martin Scorsese played the lead role in all of his own movies. From everything I've read, Rick Rubin arrived late to the project and edited a mountain of work down into a short album.
- lightyrs 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer
pron 13y ago
I would say: "great artists; made beautiful music; some masterpieces". Not sure how anyone can get more successful than that.
javajosh 13y ago
> ... read Lou Reed's review of Kanye's Yeezus: http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/lou-reed http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/lou-reed Reading that is like watching Lou Reed mentally wrestle himself to the ground. He really doesn't like the record, but keeps rationalizing: the annoying synth sound as a "challenge"; the abrupt changes are challenging and keeping us "off balance. But soon after undermines his own rationalizations to note (correctly, in my view) that the real reason to make music is to make something beautiful, and hope that other people agree with you. And there he truly uncovers what's wrong with Kanye's music, and all that ilk: it's disdain of the listener. Anyone who listens to it is Kanye's bitch, willing to take all of his musical shit and like it, and Kanye knows it. And he definitely likes it. Here we see clearly: Lou Reed isn't anyone's bitch, even when some egalitarian part of himself perversely really wants to be. We are witnessing, in black and white, his higher principles assert themselves even after he his lower ones sacrifice aesthetics and credibility on their petty alter named 'open-mindedness'. He means well here, but he just can't get away from his own good taste. Makes me respect Lou Reed more, actually.
- gbog 13y ago
  I don't know this Kanye but if I follow you his music is shit and Reed tried hard to not say it. Then for this I would respect less Lou Reed: when it's crap just say crap. In music strong taste is expected and politeness is a loss of time.
- waterlesscloud 13y ago
  This is as complete a misreading of Reed's review as I can imagine.
  - cup 13y ago
    Sometimes I wonder if people have a preconceived bias against hip hop / rap music which tarnishes their ability to think critically on the matter.
    - twerquie 13y ago
      Yes. People's relationship with music is an odd one - what you listen to you is meant to say something about who you are. You can't listen to classical because then you're an elitist snob. You can't like Justin Bieber because then you're a teenage girl. You can't like Kanye West because then you're an egomaniacal asshole. You can't like rap music in general because then you condone drugs, sex, objectification of women, electronic music and (gasp!) street slang. It's such a weird phenomenon, and it doesn't happen nearly to the same degree in other mediums. I can watch a horror movie without people thinking I'm a serial killer. I can watch a comedy without worrying that people will think I'm an idiot. I can read basically any novel on any subject without changing people's opinion of me, beyond "oh, he reads". But music is different. When I was in high school you could clearly identify social groups by what music they listened to, which also matched their fashion, and I think the majority of people don't move beyond that headspace ever.

by bbx 13y ago

selmnoo 13y ago

It is strange reading that about Yeezus, Kanye made Yeezus with a number of other musicians (the full list, according to Wiki: 88-Keys, Ackee Juice Rockers, Arca, Benji B, Carlos Broady, Brodinski, Ben Bronfman, Evian Christ, Eric Danchild, Daft Punk, Mike Dean, Dom Solo, Jack Donoghue, Gesaffelstein, Noah Goldstein, Lunice, Lupe Fiasco, Hudson Mohawke, No ID, Che Pope, Rick Rubin, S1, Travis Scott, and Sham Joseph). So, when he's praising the horns line, the piano line, or the complex electronic effects, it's not Kanye who's responsible for all of that, it's Daft Punk, it's Mike Dean, or Mohawke. Anyway, I'm getting unnecessarily off-topic here. So to get back: Lou Reed was undeniably an innovator like no other, a true hacker. He knew how to play a mean guitar (jazz, blues, rock'n'roll and a whole lot else), he wrote great poetry. The greatest thing that's said about him is, indeed, as another commenter already has said: "Only about 3000 people bought Velvet Underground albums, but all of them started a band." My two favorite songs of his: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffr0opfm6I4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffr0opfm6I4 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wNknGIKkoA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wNknGIKkoA

k-mcgrady 13y ago
>> "So, when he's praising the horns line, the piano line, or the complex electronic effects, it's not Kanye who's responsible for all of that, it's Daft Punk, it's Mike Dean, or Mohawke." To bring this round to tech I guess it's similar to Steve Jobs getting credit for the iPhone when a lot of the work was done by the engineers. In other words Kanye had to bring those people together and guide the creation of the music or it wouldn't have happened.
aneisf 13y ago
I think you're too readily writing off the role of the producer in the case of 'Yeezus.' Classics like Steely Dan's 'Aja', Quincy Jones' 'The Dude', and, in hip-hop, Dr. Dre's 'The Chronic' were crafted in much the same way, a collaboration between producers with a grand vision and a cast of musicians who could see it to realization.
justin66 13y ago
> It is strange reading that about Yeezus, Kanye made Yeezus with a number of other musicians As with his music, Reed is assuming his audience isn't an idiot. In this case, Reed assumes that you can fully internalize what West's role was and understand his words accordingly.
ssharp 13y ago
Kanye has been pretty honest about his abilities as a producer. He was always a chopped-up samples producer and started bringing in musicians and other producers to layer original instrumentation over his samples on his first album. That style evolved with each subsequent album, with his albums prior to Yeezus being extremely orchestrated and huge. There is absolutely no-doubt that Kanye is the ringleader in this. He puts a bunch of people in a room, and while he may not be the person pounding the keys, but he's putting it all together and making it cohesive. I can listen to the Hudson Mohawke / TNGHT song that Kanye used in "Blood on the Leaves" and think it's an okay song. But the way it comes in on Blood on the Leaves with Kanye's rapping and the "Strange Fruit" sample left me floored the first few times I heard it. He made those TNGHT so much more powerful. Kanye's influence over rap is enormous (the singing rap thing that Drake and others are using really didn't gain mainstream attention until 808's) and he's extremely successful commercially. It's not accident, nor is it the simple result of others' work. It's the work of someone who is meticulous in his craft, knows his limitations, and respects the work of others while pointing them in the direction he wants to move.
- xzel 13y ago
  "but he's putting it all together and making it cohesive" No, that was Rick Rubin who did that. So we know Kanye isn't a great rapper (he's had many songs Ghost written and I think its a pretty common belief among hip-hop heads) and you say he can't produce well? What can he do well? I don't have the time to go through it all unless you really want me to, but your last post was riddled with fallacies and pretty biased opinion. Lou Reed was something else, Kanye is what he made himself (a pop star). I doubt anyone's going to pick up a copy of Yeezus in 40 years and be amazed in the way people continue to pick up copies of The Velvet Underground & Nico.
  - twerquie 13y ago
    There are two meanings of "producer" at play here: a) he who cuts a beat, b) he who produces an album. Kanye was limited yet very successful at A, and he may be the best in his field at B. Kanye may not be the world's best rapper, but he is no slouch, and to be producing (both meanings) in the capacity he does at the same time is staggering. I like to tell people it's as if Martin Scorsese played the lead role in all of his own movies. From everything I've read, Rick Rubin arrived late to the project and edited a mountain of work down into a short album.
lightyrs 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer

pron 13y ago

I would say: "great artists; made beautiful music; some masterpieces". Not sure how anyone can get more successful than that.

javajosh 13y ago

> ... read Lou Reed's review of Kanye's Yeezus: http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/lou-reed http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/lou-reed Reading that is like watching Lou Reed mentally wrestle himself to the ground. He really doesn't like the record, but keeps rationalizing: the annoying synth sound as a "challenge"; the abrupt changes are challenging and keeping us "off balance. But soon after undermines his own rationalizations to note (correctly, in my view) that the real reason to make music is to make something beautiful, and hope that other people agree with you. And there he truly uncovers what's wrong with Kanye's music, and all that ilk: it's disdain of the listener. Anyone who listens to it is Kanye's bitch, willing to take all of his musical shit and like it, and Kanye knows it. And he definitely likes it. Here we see clearly: Lou Reed isn't anyone's bitch, even when some egalitarian part of himself perversely really wants to be. We are witnessing, in black and white, his higher principles assert themselves even after he his lower ones sacrifice aesthetics and credibility on their petty alter named 'open-mindedness'. He means well here, but he just can't get away from his own good taste. Makes me respect Lou Reed more, actually.

gbog 13y ago
I don't know this Kanye but if I follow you his music is shit and Reed tried hard to not say it. Then for this I would respect less Lou Reed: when it's crap just say crap. In music strong taste is expected and politeness is a loss of time.
waterlesscloud 13y ago
This is as complete a misreading of Reed's review as I can imagine.
- cup 13y ago
  Sometimes I wonder if people have a preconceived bias against hip hop / rap music which tarnishes their ability to think critically on the matter.
  - twerquie 13y ago
    Yes. People's relationship with music is an odd one - what you listen to you is meant to say something about who you are. You can't listen to classical because then you're an elitist snob. You can't like Justin Bieber because then you're a teenage girl. You can't like Kanye West because then you're an egomaniacal asshole. You can't like rap music in general because then you condone drugs, sex, objectification of women, electronic music and (gasp!) street slang. It's such a weird phenomenon, and it doesn't happen nearly to the same degree in other mediums. I can watch a horror movie without people thinking I'm a serial killer. I can watch a comedy without worrying that people will think I'm an idiot. I can read basically any novel on any subject without changing people's opinion of me, beyond "oh, he reads". But music is different. When I was in high school you could clearly identify social groups by what music they listened to, which also matched their fashion, and I think the majority of people don't move beyond that headspace ever.