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US bugged Merkel's phone from 2002 until 2013, report claims
- frank_boyd 13y agoSo, this time, at least grammatically speaking, Obama didn't lie when he said they were not spying on her. I think we're making real progress here. On the bright side, it's a good thing she's "on the list" as well, as this seems to be the only way to get her attention regarding the mass surveillance issue.
- friendly_chap 13y agoHypocrites indeed. Hopefully humanity will come up with a way to replace these parasites called politicians. I believe not even too many years later we will remember this era of humanity as the darkest of the dark ages.
- throwaway98789 13y agoI made this account entirely to remind you of the goddamn holocaust. Try not to lose all perspective, eh?
- infinitone 13y agoWhich holocaust? The one 50 years ago or the one currently happening? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxv4Aff3IA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxv4Aff3IA
- andy_ppp 13y agoI saw this video only the other day - can't actually believe this is happening - still a bit shocked by it :-/
- friendly_chap 13y agoSo how can politicians prevent a holocaust exactly? I thought they caused it in the first place.
- patrickg_zill 13y agoI recommend you add "Holodomor" next time you make a throwaway account to talk about the Holocaust.
- Sagat 13y agoThere are a ton of events which rival the Holocaust in horror. In fact, genocides are being committed as we speak.
- StavrosK 13y agoI envy your unbridled optimism.
- friendly_chap 13y agoHope is all we have got, my friend.
- StavrosK 13y agoHere's hoping, then.
- rob05c 13y ago> the darkest of the dark ages I agree this is a dark age for freedom, but to put things in perspective: Mao, Lenin, The Inquisition, Genghis Khan, Victorian Imperialism, Feudalism. The current US Congress, the CIA, Hoover's FBI, et al may be tyrannical, but Obama is no Mao.
- lispm 13y agoMerkel got the 'freedom' medal from Obama. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/06/07/remarks-president-obama-and-chancellor-merkel-exchange-toasts http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/06/07/remark...
- maak 13y ago... your point?
- growupkids 13y agoThat maybe she's pretending to be mad, but knows this sort of thing goes on and everyone pretends it doesn't?
- trapnii 13y agohis point probably: because Obama exactly knows what she's doing. ;)
- fosap 13y agoShe got a medal for fighting a surveillance state (historically quite questionable, btw) by a Obama. And now she has to learn that Obama is no better.
- acqq 13y agoThanks to you I've read what Obama then said (it's linked above): "Told by the communists that she couldn’t pursue her love of languages, she excelled as a physicist. Asked to spy for the secret police, she refused." Perfect.
- molecule 13y ago> Mrs Merkel - an Americophile who was awarded the US Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2011 - is said to be shocked that Washington may have engaged in the sort of spying she had to endure growing up in Communist East Germany. though she expressed no such outrage when it was revealed that the NSA was conducting similar surveillance on German citizens.
- rhizome 13y agoI have a suspicion that the "world leaders bin tapped" storyline is intended to set the stage for a "hey we're all in this together" kumbaya agreement where the leaders substitute their judgement for ours and allow the surveillance to continue.
- growupkids 13y agoOr when the Chinese were caught doing the same thing.
- Volpe 13y agoWhich incident was that?
- growupkids 13y agoIncidents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_intelligence_activity_abroad#Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_intelligence_activity_a...
- Volpe 13y agoSorry there seems to only have been one directed at the Chancellory [1] Would you really equate unconfirmed word document files (which were denied by the government) with explicit phone tapping (which was all but admitted to by the government)? [1] http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/espionage-report-merkel-s-china-visit-marred-by-hacking-allegations-a-502169.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/espionage-report-m...
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- 0p0p 13y ago> President Barack Obama promised Mrs Merkel he knew nothing of the alleged phone monitoring, the magazine reports. He apologised to the German chancellor, it said. Plausible deniability?!? Wonder what else he "didn't know" and how he is justified in making sweepings statements if he is not sufficiently informed. It can't be "Don't worry, trust me" and "Oops, I didn't know" simultaneously.
- MatthewPhillips 13y agoI haven't been following the story close enough, but he never apologized for spying on U.S. citizens, he defended that, right?
- growupkids 13y agoPolitician move #178, also know as the "Reagan Shim Sham": just say you don't know anything about it.
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y agoIt's worth remembering that Barack Obama was not president of the US until 2008. It's safe to assume that in 2002 he was the subject of, not the instigator of, surveillance.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- sockypuppy 13y ago> Wonder what else [Obama] "didn't know" Here's a laundry list from a libertarian / conservative commentator who often says insightful things even when I disagree with him: [Obama] was himself clueless as to the extent and severity of the problems in his signature legislation. Two weeks after the Benghazi massacre, he was still parroting the Susan Rice line about anti-Islamic videos, which the CIA knew within hours had had nothing to do with the murder of Ambassador Stevens. Obama had no idea for three years his IRS might be slow-walking Tea Party applications for tax exemptions. He wasn’t in the loop about Eric Holder’s phone taps on Fox News or the Associated Press. Nobody told him. The president has not been more deeply implicated in the scandals since re-election because he could credibly say, "How was I supposed to know what was going on?" Source: http://buchanan.org/blog/queen-obamaland-5957 http://buchanan.org/blog/queen-obamaland-5957
- throwaway9848 13y agoI'm shocked - shocked - to find that gambling is going on in here!
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y agoThere was an article that made this same comparison recently, and discussed why it doesn't matter: http://crookedtimber.org/2013/10/23/the-politics-of-hypocrisy/ http://crookedtimber.org/2013/10/23/the-politics-of-hypocris... > What is interesting is not whether France (or Mexico, or Brazil, or Germany) is being hypocritical in pretending to be shocked at what the US is doing. It’s whether their response (hypocritical as it may be) has real political consequences. And it surely does
- zurn 13y agoThe UKUSA intelligence aparatus has been long used as a justification to increase powers of spy agencies in other countries. For allies it's the perceived political returns when they deliver more intelligence and get in exchange get on the good side of USA's foreign policy, and for others it's the perceived need to keep up in the arms race.
- patrickg_zill 13y agoNot just USA had access to the info - remember that it came out that the USA was giving raw feeds to Israel's intelligence service also.... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/11/nsa-americans-personal-data-israel-documents http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/11/nsa-americans-p...
- alexqgb 13y agoShe's "angry", but not angry enough to grant Snowden asylum.
- maak 13y agoAt least somebody with influence is getting angry at all.
- growupkids 13y agoIt's political theatre. She's not mad, she playing to her audience.
- pepr 13y agoWell, at least she is pretending - US politicians aren't even prentending to be outraged :-D
- scaphandre 13y agoI doubt her anger is completely feigned. Even if it were, the job of a politician in a democracy is to represent the interests of their people. Anger here is better than not talking about it.
- growupkids 13y agoThink the Russians hope no one notices how quiet they are right now about all this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Soviet_and_Russian_espionage_in_the_United_States#Post-Soviet_period http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Soviet_and_Russian_e... According to former GRU Colonel Stanislav Lunev, "SVR and GRU (Russia's external and military intelligence agencies, respectively) are operating against the U.S. in a much more active manner than they were during even the hottest days of the Cold War"
- camus2 13y agoRussia doesnt boast about being the "Greatest democracy and the Leader of the free world".
- skidoo 13y agoIf the shoe were on the other foot, there'd be bloody hell to pay.
- diego_moita 13y agoDisclaimer: Brazilian here Most comments I've seen about this issue seem very American, going along the lines of "stop the hypocrisy, everybody does it". It is useless to argue against such view, cynicism is usually unpermeable to arguments. However, regardless if "everybody does it" or not this story will have implications. It is a very strong argument for a new kind of walled garden: the nationally restricted Internet. We should expect a strong growth of the China-style Internet. This surveillance is now seen in Latin America as a threat from the classic "American Imperialism". In the name of "protection" from real or imaginary dangers politicians, bureaucrats and autocrats will enforce Internet monitoring within a lot of countries. Google, Apple, Facebook and Microsoft, expect a lot of trouble.
- rob05c 13y agoI fear Tyrannical Governments will create an "American Internet," a "Chinese Internet," a "European Internet," and a "Rest-of-the-world Internet." It will happen quietly, and no one outside the tech community will know until it's too late.
- bcoates 13y agoIf that's the worst case scenario we're doing pretty OK. The nationalist networks will presumably be like the PSTN in the 90s: ubiquitous, reliable, safe but perceived as safer than it is, overpriced, limited, behind. All the interesting stuff will happen over tunnels to the Internet Internet.
- rob05c 13y agoWell, it depends how they do it, right? If they just block DNS, yeah, people who care can simply tunnel out. It still hurts, as the average non-caring citizen's knowledge is stunted. But not as badly. If they block IPs, and closely monitor outgoing tunnels? Then it's a lot harder to get out. I suspect you're right, they'll probably just block DNS and the worst IPs. It's easier, and DNS gets the 99%. Even The Great Firewall only blocks the 'worst' IPs (like Twitter).
- brubaker 13y agoI have a hard time believing that it ended.
- rob05c 13y agoAs an American, I wish news agencies would stop conflating the US with the CIA. It suggests US citizens generally approve of their actions. The "US" did not bug Merkel's phone. An agency under the Executive branch, which is above the Rule of Law, which is drunk with power and paranoia, who considers American citizens the enemy as much as foreigners, bugged Merkel's phone. It would be like saying "Syria uses chemical weapons." The Syrian people had little to do with it, and the American people have little to do with this.
- bilbo0s 13y agoWell... we voted in all the Representatives, Senators and Presidents who, in turn, voted to implement the programs though. We do have some culpability.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- rob05c 13y agoThe US is a two-party system. First Past The Post voting ensures a vote for a third party is wasted. No significant percentage of people will ever vote for a third party (excluding transition periods between party systems). The current ruling party is widely recognized as less warmongering and less surveillance-state than the other party. Americans aren't completely inculpable. Our societal inability to work together (see: Prisoner's Dilemma), combined with our unwillingness to risk contentment, contributes. But I fail to see how American citizens have any real say in the government. We present a "democracy," but the two-party system is a thinly veiled autocracy.
- kamjam 13y agoAs a non-American, I have no rights in your country and my views no not count for diddly-squat. In fact, the NSA surveillance are specifically supposed to target at me as a non-American. So as an America, if you do not approve of their actions then you need to do something about it. You succeeded in one revolution, maybe it is time for another.
- sethbannon 13y agoAs an American, I'm deeply embarrassed by this. Outrage will not stop the spying program, however. Action will: https://stopwatching.us https://stopwatching.us
- topynate 13y agoHaving accurately assessed the likely effects of the programme's exposure, it seems very dumb to proceed with it. What could the NSA learn that would outweigh having Germany decide that America wasn't actually a friendly, trustworthy country, as it has presumably now done? Don't ignore either that by recognizing the programme as a betrayal while proceeding with it, the NSA admits to being utterly amoral in a way that can't be walked back from. The only saving grace is that the programme started in 2003; you could almost plead collective insanity given what American foreign policy looked like at that time.
- csense 13y agoIt seems naive not to believe that other countries' intelligence services do the same, or would do so if they had the technology. This doesn't make it right. The reason I feel that we're justified in using the "but-everybody-else-does-it" argument to dismiss it from our concern at the moment, is that it attempts to redirect the public outrage from a major problem (NSA spying on basically everyone) to a much more minor problem (NSA spying on head of a foreign state). Imagine the (hypothetical) case where a particular state's police force is taking fire due to the police breaking up a properly permitted, legal, peaceful rally using excessive force. It later comes out that the police officers of the department in question regularly disobey the speed limit and sometimes run stop signs. To be sure, police officers speeding is not something they should be doing; it's wrong and unethical to do that. But police officers speeding is a much less serious problem than police officers depriving the people of their right to peacefully assemble and petition their government for redress of grievances. And if the media and the audience's focus immediately goes from the more important story (unlawfully breaking up peaceful rallies and excessive use of force) to the less important story (police officers sometimes exceed the speed limit when they're not supposed to), it's bad because it means the serious problem is no longer getting the attention it deserves.
- mahranch 13y agoI'm going to go against the grain here and say that it's not just that "everyone does it", it's more about the fact that everyone will do it, regardless of the circumstances. Consider for a moment what would happen if the U.S. stopped all its foreign & domestic spying. What would happen? Do you think China will stop their spy programs? How about Russia? The UK? The rest of Europe? No. The U.S. would be at a severe disadvantage when it comes to intelligence. It's like an arms race, except instead of weapons, it's knowledge. Just because one player quits or gets caught, doesn't mean everyone else will stop. In fact, it would be to their advantage if a few players left the table. That's why I find this whole spying thing nonsense. It's one thing to spy on regular citizens, but it's another to spy on targets (like Angela Merkel) who are political actors and/or heads of state. It should be expected.
- LekkoscPiwa 13y agoThe pace at which the USA destroys the remainders of its credibility is astonishing.
- AustinLin 13y agoSometimes I wish the gov't would just come out and say what everyone is thinking: Yep we are spying on you, (insert name of foreign leader), just like you are trying to spy on our leaders. There are good arguments to be made against mass surveillance of the internet at large, but expecting that countries will stop spying on each other anytime soon is plain stupid.
- grey-area 13y agoIt started in 2002, Merkel was elected as Chancellor in 2005, that implies they are watching for up and coming politicians (she was CDU leader in 2002). I did find it interesting that the NSA admitted also collecting information from Washington DC in 2008 (an election year), the assurances that this was an accident are sounding more and more hollow, and the implications are frightening for a functioning democracy. This, along with the Airbus, Petrobras and Belgacom revelations, makes it clear that surveillance is not targeting terrorists or part of the war on terror - it is engaged in for economic and political advantage, even against allies. That's quite a serious breach of trust. "President Barack Obama promised Mrs Merkel he knew nothing of the alleged phone monitoring" I can't decide which is more damning, that he know about it, and didn't stop it, or that he knew nothing about it, and the NSA takes it upon themselves to monitor the communications of allied politicians and interfere in other nations. Either way his reputation and his promises are meaningless now. Along with being used by the US, raw intercept information is also shared with other allies of the US like Isreal and the UK, potentially damaging its European allies by giving out secret information to third parties, and I find it hard to believe given the lack of security the Snowden and Manning leaks highlighted, that Russia and China also don't have access to much of this intel through the many private contractors with security clearance. While it is somewhat hypocritical of Merkel to be outraged by this and not by the widespread surveillance of her citizens, I'm pleased that this story has at last triggered such a virulent reaction in European politicians. The best thing she could do now in response is to offer Snowden asylum in Germany, and allow him to speak openly about the US security state - I do believe that would be in the interests of all the citizens of the world, if not of their leaders. The blowback from this affair is just starting to pick up pace - it's already taken US relations with South America to a new low, and is about to do the same in Europe. Hopefully it will lead to meaningful change.