14 ms·

I think your comment is of kind intent, but if I were to summarize it, it reads to me like "Women, you should defer your careers by 20 years so you don't upset

I think your comment is of kind intent, but if I were to summarize it, it reads to me like "Women, you should defer your careers by 20 years so you don't upset your spouse and, through his insecurity, risk divorce." Maybe the advice should be that men should get counseling or something if they're so insecure that they divorce their breadwinner.

bluecalm 13y ago
It's not men initiating the divorces it's overwhelmingly women (overall too but especially in income disparity situations).
- carbocation 13y ago
  The main message, that one group of people in society (women) should defer their careers by 20 years to avoid this, is still the wrong advice to be giving to people, in my opinion.
  - bluecalm 13y ago
    Advice or not, it's good to realize what the dynamics are. If you pursue career first your chances for finding successful/attractive man later diminish because for successful/attractive guys it makes sense to go for the most attractive thing: young/hot women and by the time you decide to settle you might not be in that category any longer. It's a choice. Many people find it wrong but they would find: "if you delay settling down/children then you will likely have less attractive/successful (in other words lower status) partner to do so with" even more wrong.
randomdata 13y ago
That assumes divorce is a bad thing. Marriage comes from a time when women were unable to earn a living on their own, and we still hold up many of those ideals, even in our modern equal-oppurtunity society. Perhaps when a woman clearly demonstrates she is equally capable of being the breadwinner, the couple are freed to be more open to making relationship decisions on the basis of the relationship alone without feeling the obligations of marriage?
- cheez 13y ago
  In the vast majority of cases, divorce is worse for the kids and usually leaves the women worse off for a variety of reasons (and if I hear patriarchy, /thread done.) There are many situations in which divorce is the only choice but it is dangerous to imply that it is right thing to do more often than not because we are now supposedly more enlightened. If you don't have kids though, go for it.
  - hajile 13y ago
    Divorce is bad for WOMEN?? Divorce is a disaster for men both emotionally and financially. Even prenuptial agreements are largely useless as they are normally overturned by the court system. A serious consideration (and study) of the chances of divorce and the normal outcome of divorce would have any man reconsidering (assuming he is thinking rationally rather than emotionally).
    - cheez 13y ago
      Yeah I don't know what I was thinking. I think it's bad for everyone but the topic was about women.
    - jdbernard 13y ago
      And now that we have decided that divorce is bad for the kids, the women, and the men, maybe we can be comfortable saying divorce is a bad thing.
      - randomdata 13y ago
        Actually, I don't think anyone has shown how divorce is worse than any other non-married couple breaking up (except maybe some hardships due to legal proceedings). The premise was that couples with high-earning females no longer feel the pressure to stay together just because of the marriage, and therefore evaluate their relationship on the merits of the relationship alone, as if the marriage never existed. I guess you could argue that any relationship divide is a bad thing, but if you never have a relationship with someone, how can you determine if you mesh together? Sometimes you don't.
joyeuse6701 13y ago
eh, read more to me like: "you make more than your man? You deserve better". Anyone ever met the one friend who instigates things in relationships by saying stuff like this? male ego is certainly a factor but entitlement that we create in America with feel good statements like ”you deserve the best, you're a catch, don't settle for anything less ” is probably more subtle but just as real a problem. We can't all expect the best, if you want a stable relationship you'll have to make concessions.
cheez 13y ago
As others have said,women initiate a legal divorce in ~70% of cases while some other studies have shown that women cause the divorce in over 80% of the cases (either by infidelity or some other issue which leaves the man no choice but to initiate the divorce). It's not just kind intent, it's the world as it is. I wouldn't want my friend's marriage and family to be a martyr to the cause so I gave her the best advice I could with the knowledge and experience I had at hand.
PeterisP 13y ago
Try looking at "should" not as "Doing X is proper and just" but as "Doing X has expected result of Y, so if you really want Y then better choose X". Reality doesn't care about moral opinions of how reality should be - if you observe in practice that choosing to having a career sometimes carries an unfair consequence, then taking that risk into account helps your decisionmaking, and ignoring the consequence because it's unfair would hurt only yourself.

bluecalm 13y ago

It's not men initiating the divorces it's overwhelmingly women (overall too but especially in income disparity situations).

carbocation 13y ago
The main message, that one group of people in society (women) should defer their careers by 20 years to avoid this, is still the wrong advice to be giving to people, in my opinion.
- bluecalm 13y ago
  Advice or not, it's good to realize what the dynamics are. If you pursue career first your chances for finding successful/attractive man later diminish because for successful/attractive guys it makes sense to go for the most attractive thing: young/hot women and by the time you decide to settle you might not be in that category any longer. It's a choice. Many people find it wrong but they would find: "if you delay settling down/children then you will likely have less attractive/successful (in other words lower status) partner to do so with" even more wrong.

randomdata 13y ago

That assumes divorce is a bad thing. Marriage comes from a time when women were unable to earn a living on their own, and we still hold up many of those ideals, even in our modern equal-oppurtunity society. Perhaps when a woman clearly demonstrates she is equally capable of being the breadwinner, the couple are freed to be more open to making relationship decisions on the basis of the relationship alone without feeling the obligations of marriage?

cheez 13y ago
In the vast majority of cases, divorce is worse for the kids and usually leaves the women worse off for a variety of reasons (and if I hear patriarchy, /thread done.) There are many situations in which divorce is the only choice but it is dangerous to imply that it is right thing to do more often than not because we are now supposedly more enlightened. If you don't have kids though, go for it.
- hajile 13y ago
  Divorce is bad for WOMEN?? Divorce is a disaster for men both emotionally and financially. Even prenuptial agreements are largely useless as they are normally overturned by the court system. A serious consideration (and study) of the chances of divorce and the normal outcome of divorce would have any man reconsidering (assuming he is thinking rationally rather than emotionally).
  - cheez 13y ago
    Yeah I don't know what I was thinking. I think it's bad for everyone but the topic was about women.
  - jdbernard 13y ago
    And now that we have decided that divorce is bad for the kids, the women, and the men, maybe we can be comfortable saying divorce is a bad thing.
    - randomdata 13y ago
      Actually, I don't think anyone has shown how divorce is worse than any other non-married couple breaking up (except maybe some hardships due to legal proceedings). The premise was that couples with high-earning females no longer feel the pressure to stay together just because of the marriage, and therefore evaluate their relationship on the merits of the relationship alone, as if the marriage never existed. I guess you could argue that any relationship divide is a bad thing, but if you never have a relationship with someone, how can you determine if you mesh together? Sometimes you don't.

joyeuse6701 13y ago

eh, read more to me like: "you make more than your man? You deserve better". Anyone ever met the one friend who instigates things in relationships by saying stuff like this? male ego is certainly a factor but entitlement that we create in America with feel good statements like ”you deserve the best, you're a catch, don't settle for anything less ” is probably more subtle but just as real a problem. We can't all expect the best, if you want a stable relationship you'll have to make concessions.

cheez 13y ago

As others have said,women initiate a legal divorce in ~70% of cases while some other studies have shown that women cause the divorce in over 80% of the cases (either by infidelity or some other issue which leaves the man no choice but to initiate the divorce). It's not just kind intent, it's the world as it is. I wouldn't want my friend's marriage and family to be a martyr to the cause so I gave her the best advice I could with the knowledge and experience I had at hand.

PeterisP 13y ago

Try looking at "should" not as "Doing X is proper and just" but as "Doing X has expected result of Y, so if you really want Y then better choose X". Reality doesn't care about moral opinions of how reality should be - if you observe in practice that choosing to having a career sometimes carries an unfair consequence, then taking that risk into account helps your decisionmaking, and ignoring the consequence because it's unfair would hurt only yourself.