5 ms·

Just when you thought they could not make their hardware any more repair unfriendly, they find a way. I think iFixit needs to start having a minus score on the

Just when you thought they could not make their hardware any more repair unfriendly, they find a way. I think iFixit needs to start having a minus score on the repairability score - this can earn a one, it surely has to lose that for extra soldered and glued parts alone.

seiji 13y ago
Compare it to the user serviceability of a 1950s muscle car versus a 2013 Tesla. They're not making it one piece to say "screw you, HN user who wants after market RAM!" -- they're doing it because it makes the machine physically smaller and lighter. If you don't like their new work, you can still go to HP and buy a laptop with a DVD drive, a bluray drive, two VGA ports, a PS/2 port, and a proprietary six inch wide docking station port.
- stiff 13y ago
  Things like proprietary screws are there to make the machine smaller and lighter?
  - seiji 13y ago
    Well, iFixit says even trying to remove most things from inside the machine has a chance at breaking other parts irreparably (e.g. removing the battery (which takes 30 minutes of practice) has a good chance at slicing your trackpad I/O cable). The user hostile screws are just trying to say "Look, we're trying to save you from yourself. There's nothing in here you can fix without ripping cables and rendering your machine into an ineffective boat anchor."
    - jlgaddis 13y ago
      I bought a new ThinkPad W530 back in May along with an SSD and 4x8GB sticks of RAM to upgrade myself. I spent five minutes looking over the service manual and another five minutes doing the upgrades, thanks to the standard screws that Lenovo chose to use. When I bought my last MBP, I had them (at the Apple Store) upgrade the RAM, which meant I had to wait around for 90 minutes for them to do it.
      - epistasis 13y ago
        In my MBP manual it shows you how to replace the RAM, and the hard drive, and it uses standard screws.
      - drewrm 13y ago
        To be fair, changing RAM and putting in an SSD in a unibody MBP would only take a few minutes if you did it yourself too. The only "tricky" piece was disconnecting the battery (not strictly necessary), and that only needed a triwing screwdriver.
    - stiff 13y ago
      Might be, I still find it ironic, given that the founding fathers of Apple grew out of the open hacking/engineering community where all the designs were out in the wild and you could mess with things at will.
      - joezydeco 13y ago
        What was the last Apple model to include schematics in the documentation? The Apple //e?
    - uxp 13y ago
      I think I repeat this every time Apple releases a new Macbook model, but here it is anyways. I was a Swiss trained watchmaker before I switched careers and became a software developer. Back in the 40s through 60s, both the Swiss and American watch companies standardized on a 6-point case back that was removable with a two or three-pronged adjustable wrench. The same design is still being used for the most part in middle luxury brands. Though, if you ever look at the back of a modern mid-100 dollar watch (Casio, off-brands, etc.), you'll probably see a little lip where you can place the blade of a knife. Giving the knife a slight twisting motion easily pops the back off, giving anyone the ability to change the battery. But go take a look at some of the higher luxury brands and you'll see various variations of case backs. Rolex uses a fluted design unique to themselves. Breitling uses a design similar to the older 6-point, but it's more like a 18-sided polygon that requires a wrench with flat jaws. Omega uses a design with a number of deep holes in the case back, requiring a wrench with points that fit loosely on the back (instead of tightened onto it). The reasons for the "proprietary" case back designs, especially with Rolex, is exactly the same as Apple using non-standard Pentalobe screws, which you point out. These things are not serviceable to 95% of the population (and if you think that number is high, go visit the mid-west for a week and get out of the big city costal echo-chambers). I can't tell you how many times some wiseguy walked into my shop with a small container containing all but a couple pieces of his watch asking me to put it back together after they took it apart to do some trivial task, most of the time one that probably didn't require any disassembly to begin with. If you think you can personally take apart a retina MacBook Pro and replace the trackpad, no one is stopping you from buying the special screwdriver and doing it yourself with help from iFixit, but Apple certainly isn't going to honor that warranty. Requiring at least one hoop for you to jump through in order to even get the back off is enough evidence for them to know that anyone walking through their door with their product rattling around in an altoids tin intentionally decided to disassemble the thing themselves. It's a premeditative action, instead of an accidental impulse.
      - stiff 13y ago
        I don't want to have to pay someone to undust the fan of my laptop after a year of usage. I am a grown up, I accept that the warranty will not be valid past that point and that I might break something. I paid for the thing and I have the right to do with it whatever I want. The clock thing above isn't a fair comparison, a computer doesn't fall apart into two hundred pieces once you unscrew the case, there are just a few discrete components and most of the time one just replaces one of them completely, almost nobody attempts to repair surface mounted components with a soldering iron, even at the repair shops. You don't have to have any special knowledge to do those things, just know a few tricks, ironically mostly related to opening things the producer didn't want you to open, and handle it with some care. By the way, am I not, accidentally, at a site called "Hacker News"?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- ansimionescu 13y ago
  I thought we'd given up feeding common sense to the trolls.

seiji 13y ago

Compare it to the user serviceability of a 1950s muscle car versus a 2013 Tesla. They're not making it one piece to say "screw you, HN user who wants after market RAM!" -- they're doing it because it makes the machine physically smaller and lighter. If you don't like their new work, you can still go to HP and buy a laptop with a DVD drive, a bluray drive, two VGA ports, a PS/2 port, and a proprietary six inch wide docking station port.

stiff 13y ago
Things like proprietary screws are there to make the machine smaller and lighter?
- seiji 13y ago
  Well, iFixit says even trying to remove most things from inside the machine has a chance at breaking other parts irreparably (e.g. removing the battery (which takes 30 minutes of practice) has a good chance at slicing your trackpad I/O cable). The user hostile screws are just trying to say "Look, we're trying to save you from yourself. There's nothing in here you can fix without ripping cables and rendering your machine into an ineffective boat anchor."
  - jlgaddis 13y ago
    I bought a new ThinkPad W530 back in May along with an SSD and 4x8GB sticks of RAM to upgrade myself. I spent five minutes looking over the service manual and another five minutes doing the upgrades, thanks to the standard screws that Lenovo chose to use. When I bought my last MBP, I had them (at the Apple Store) upgrade the RAM, which meant I had to wait around for 90 minutes for them to do it.
    - epistasis 13y ago
      In my MBP manual it shows you how to replace the RAM, and the hard drive, and it uses standard screws.
    - drewrm 13y ago
      To be fair, changing RAM and putting in an SSD in a unibody MBP would only take a few minutes if you did it yourself too. The only "tricky" piece was disconnecting the battery (not strictly necessary), and that only needed a triwing screwdriver.
  - stiff 13y ago
    Might be, I still find it ironic, given that the founding fathers of Apple grew out of the open hacking/engineering community where all the designs were out in the wild and you could mess with things at will.
    - joezydeco 13y ago
      What was the last Apple model to include schematics in the documentation? The Apple //e?
  - uxp 13y ago
    I think I repeat this every time Apple releases a new Macbook model, but here it is anyways. I was a Swiss trained watchmaker before I switched careers and became a software developer. Back in the 40s through 60s, both the Swiss and American watch companies standardized on a 6-point case back that was removable with a two or three-pronged adjustable wrench. The same design is still being used for the most part in middle luxury brands. Though, if you ever look at the back of a modern mid-100 dollar watch (Casio, off-brands, etc.), you'll probably see a little lip where you can place the blade of a knife. Giving the knife a slight twisting motion easily pops the back off, giving anyone the ability to change the battery. But go take a look at some of the higher luxury brands and you'll see various variations of case backs. Rolex uses a fluted design unique to themselves. Breitling uses a design similar to the older 6-point, but it's more like a 18-sided polygon that requires a wrench with flat jaws. Omega uses a design with a number of deep holes in the case back, requiring a wrench with points that fit loosely on the back (instead of tightened onto it). The reasons for the "proprietary" case back designs, especially with Rolex, is exactly the same as Apple using non-standard Pentalobe screws, which you point out. These things are not serviceable to 95% of the population (and if you think that number is high, go visit the mid-west for a week and get out of the big city costal echo-chambers). I can't tell you how many times some wiseguy walked into my shop with a small container containing all but a couple pieces of his watch asking me to put it back together after they took it apart to do some trivial task, most of the time one that probably didn't require any disassembly to begin with. If you think you can personally take apart a retina MacBook Pro and replace the trackpad, no one is stopping you from buying the special screwdriver and doing it yourself with help from iFixit, but Apple certainly isn't going to honor that warranty. Requiring at least one hoop for you to jump through in order to even get the back off is enough evidence for them to know that anyone walking through their door with their product rattling around in an altoids tin intentionally decided to disassemble the thing themselves. It's a premeditative action, instead of an accidental impulse.
    - stiff 13y ago
      I don't want to have to pay someone to undust the fan of my laptop after a year of usage. I am a grown up, I accept that the warranty will not be valid past that point and that I might break something. I paid for the thing and I have the right to do with it whatever I want. The clock thing above isn't a fair comparison, a computer doesn't fall apart into two hundred pieces once you unscrew the case, there are just a few discrete components and most of the time one just replaces one of them completely, almost nobody attempts to repair surface mounted components with a soldering iron, even at the repair shops. You don't have to have any special knowledge to do those things, just know a few tricks, ironically mostly related to opening things the producer didn't want you to open, and handle it with some care. By the way, am I not, accidentally, at a site called "Hacker News"?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
ansimionescu 13y ago
I thought we'd given up feeding common sense to the trolls.