7 ms·

State Dept. to Twitter: Keep site up in Iran

61 points by robg 17y ago

brown9-2 17y ago
Another link to same story: http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSWBT01137420090616 http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUS...
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
siavosh 17y ago
bravo to the State Dept. and twitter but I wish they made the request more discretely.
- geuis 17y ago
  Why must this be secret? This is a nice sign of transparency between the government and tech companies. Its much better read "State department working with Twitter" than "NSA installing secret monitoring equipment in AT&T building".
  - siavosh 17y ago
    well my concern is that it could be used as propaganda inside Iran trying to link the protests to foreign powers. but for domestic transparancy, to your point, is great.
    - jm4 17y ago
      I would presume that since the announcement came straight from the State Department any potential consequences of such an announcement were considered. I also think any propaganda value the announcement may have is negligible if there is any value at all. If they're going to claim a link between the protests and a foreign power I would think they'd have to come up with something a little more substantial than the State Department asking Twitter to postpone maintenance. Could you imagine some diplomat going to the U.N. with such a thin story? I can't. In fact, it would probably be even more effective to claim foreign involvement without any evidence at all. If they make the case using the Twitter story many people would quickly dismiss it as a weak theory. If they, instead, make bold claims and then are unable to substantiate them due to national security reasons it can't be disputed.
      - netsp 17y ago
        It wouldn't be of much value in a vacuum. But Iranian-US dynamic didn't start this week. 'The US is manipulating Iranians,' is a storyline that Iranians would be open to. It's a pre-existing fear.
        bint 17y ago
        Yep, there's obviously a lot going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. The people really behind the Twitter protests is just one part of it. http://kheirkhah.ir/media/Image/Weblog%202/Keyhan-ehtics.jpg http://kheirkhah.ir/media/Image/Weblog%202/Keyhan-ehtics.jpg
    - philwelch 17y ago
      Yes, but "we're trying to shut down all means of communication within and out of Iran, but those damned Americans are trying to keep Twitter up" is a hard propaganda message to pull off.
      - netsp 17y ago
        Twitter is being used by foreign powers to spread misinformation & seed malcontent. Twitter is taking orders from the United States State Department about what it should & shouldn't do in Iran.
        deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
mmelin 17y ago
Washington Times just broke through Safari 4's popup blocker and showed me a _really_ obnoxious ad for an Economist subscription. We're talking 600x400 pixels of #FF0000, flashing.
- Dilpil 17y ago
  Hmm, I don't see anything in Mozilla.
- Zev 17y ago
  I don't see this ad in Safari 4 on Mac.
biohacker42 17y ago
It has been very interesting to watch the information flow in Iran. Full disclosure: I was born and raised behind the iron curtain so I've thought a lot about autocratic regimes and network theory. It's very difficult if not impossible to stop a human wave revolution. Even if the police have guns and the protesters don't, it is usually impossible to stop, regimes just topple. Violent regime change by small groups of people also happens, but I want to concentrate on the classic thrown off by the populace scenario. To keep a population down, to have a police state and stay in power you need some percentage X of that population to function as police. To do it by brute force requires such a large X that it's hard to function as a state, see North Korea. But you can get away with a much smaller X if you can disrupt the formation of a human wave. And the best way to do that is fear, intimidation and preventing the flow of information. That's why police states spy on their people and control the media. Parades are for propaganda, except they can also turn to bad, see Romania and Ceauşescu. The spying is not about getting everyone who's dissatisfied with the regime. It's about getting at least some of the super links, and intimidating the rest. Controlling the media is about preventing synchronization, you want to prevent EVERYONE going out on the street at the same time. So no braking news, or reports of demonstrations. If there are large demonstrations anywhere, you definitely don't put that on TV, much less live TV. Even industrial accidents are suppressed and then slowly leaked over time, days. You just don't want to give anyone a reason to panic. Controlling a populace like that is very much like crowd control, it's even somewhat similar to how you control an animal that could kill you if it got spooked, like a horse. That control occasionally slips. Soccer is huge in the rest of the world and soccer matches are live even in autocratic regimes. And usually that's not a problem. Except when a soccer riot at live soccer match starts a revolution. Interestingly, I recall hearing that North Korea would not show the South Korean team's games in the soccer world cup live. And what Iran is doing is very smart. Evil but smart. Shutting down Facebook and youtube is smart. Why they left Twitter open is anyone's guess. Breaking up the crowds while they are still small, announcing fake rallies is poisoning the information well. Given how important information is to regime change, I am stunned the CIA has not done more to make Facebook unblockable, or at least difficult to block. Or airdropped encrypted satellite cell phones on the crowds. I am surprised and depressed there aren't free information distribution tools being made and given away by the NSA, CIA, etc to everybody living in autocratic regimes. It saddens me to think this is because they fear those tools could be used against friendly dictators. Watching the brutality of the police in Iran, how they beat people, students, women, anyone, I keep thinking to myself: Iran needs soccer hooligans. Iran needs semi-pro, British, well organized, taking-hooliganism-as-a-serious-hobby, with many years experience hooligans. And lots of them. Why are we not parachuting them into Tehran? You can also watch the crowds react, flow around blockades or confront them when numbers are on their side. And the police go from bullies to running away as fast as the balance of numbers changes. Watching has been painful, but Iran is after all the nation that used the human wave attack in the Iran-Iraq war, so I can't help but expect that to happen to the current regime soon.
bint 17y ago
Yeah, it would not surprise me one bit if all this mayhem in Iran is eventually found to have America's fingerprints all over it. Remember the Orange Revolution and Yushchenko (the acid-on-face guy) in Ukraine not so long ago? Quote: 'an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing…' http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa The situation in Iran, esp. the reaction to the Twittering, strikes me as the exact same thing, especially given the US history in the region covertly bringing down the democratic government of Mossadeq. Israel and therefore America want to destabilise Iran at any cost. They don't want democracy, they want a 'friendly' democracy -- that's the key. It's been going on covertly and not-so-covertly for a long time: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2002/09/12/Netanyahu_US_should_attack_Iran_with_TV/UPI-63711031863825/ http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2002/09/12/Netanyahu_US_should_a...
- rjurney 17y ago
  Its not really fair to talk about US meddling in Ukraine during the Orange Revolution without mentioning the overwhelming Russian meddling in Ukraine that it sought to oppose.
  - bint 17y ago
    So because they do it, it's okay for us to do it too? We've moved completely away from the "Trade with all nations and have emnity with none" of the Founders to the Machiavelian games of Brezinski, Kissenger and their friends at the CFR. Why did the CIA plan and execute a coup against the democratically-elected Hugo Chavez, and attempt to overthow the legitimate democracy in Venezuela? How can it be justified from a non-Machiavelian (i.e. moral) worldview? Can it? The crazy thing is, the US subverts democracy in the name of democracy.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
    - rjurney 17y ago
      In case you didn't notice: the FSB took over Russia, and they are evil. They don't have Ukraine's best interest in mind in anything they do. They want to start a civil war, and annex the Russian part of Ukraine. Can you make such a case for opposing overwhelming foreign intervention in Venezuela? No. Therefore our meddling there was wrong. Not the same as Russia/Ukraine. We were opposing a takeover in Ukraine.
raheemm 17y ago
Sort of unrelated but why does Facebook not co-opt Twitter. It does not seem to be all that hard. Problem with Twitter is that there is no way to verify identity. I always have a suspicion that the tweets from guy in Iran is really just some bozo in the state dept or the Iranian revolutionary guard.
- jmillikin 17y ago
  I do not think any authentic protesters would be using Twitter if their identities could be "verified".
- brown9-2 17y ago
  And how do you verify identity on Facebook?
sfphotoarts 17y ago
I just looked at the State Dept's website to see exactly what their mission is. They still have a page from 2007 outlining the will of the then President Bush. Maybe they should think about updating their own website sometime...
jmhodges 17y ago
Looks like the new url is: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/17/state-asks-twitter-to-keep-site-up-in-iran/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/17/state-asks-t... The day seems to have changed. (Perhaps their CMS updates the url as a side effect of saving an update that happens on a new day?)
axod 17y ago
Debunked: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8104318.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8104318.stm

61 points by robg 17y ago

Another link to same story: http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSWBT01137420090616 http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUS...

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

siavosh 17y ago

bravo to the State Dept. and twitter but I wish they made the request more discretely.

geuis 17y ago
Why must this be secret? This is a nice sign of transparency between the government and tech companies. Its much better read "State department working with Twitter" than "NSA installing secret monitoring equipment in AT&T building".
- siavosh 17y ago
  well my concern is that it could be used as propaganda inside Iran trying to link the protests to foreign powers. but for domestic transparancy, to your point, is great.
  - jm4 17y ago
    I would presume that since the announcement came straight from the State Department any potential consequences of such an announcement were considered. I also think any propaganda value the announcement may have is negligible if there is any value at all. If they're going to claim a link between the protests and a foreign power I would think they'd have to come up with something a little more substantial than the State Department asking Twitter to postpone maintenance. Could you imagine some diplomat going to the U.N. with such a thin story? I can't. In fact, it would probably be even more effective to claim foreign involvement without any evidence at all. If they make the case using the Twitter story many people would quickly dismiss it as a weak theory. If they, instead, make bold claims and then are unable to substantiate them due to national security reasons it can't be disputed.
    - netsp 17y ago
      It wouldn't be of much value in a vacuum. But Iranian-US dynamic didn't start this week. 'The US is manipulating Iranians,' is a storyline that Iranians would be open to. It's a pre-existing fear.
      - bint 17y ago
        Yep, there's obviously a lot going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. The people really behind the Twitter protests is just one part of it. http://kheirkhah.ir/media/Image/Weblog%202/Keyhan-ehtics.jpg http://kheirkhah.ir/media/Image/Weblog%202/Keyhan-ehtics.jpg
  - philwelch 17y ago
    Yes, but "we're trying to shut down all means of communication within and out of Iran, but those damned Americans are trying to keep Twitter up" is a hard propaganda message to pull off.
    - netsp 17y ago
      Twitter is being used by foreign powers to spread misinformation & seed malcontent. Twitter is taking orders from the United States State Department about what it should & shouldn't do in Iran.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]

mmelin 17y ago

Washington Times just broke through Safari 4's popup blocker and showed me a _really_ obnoxious ad for an Economist subscription. We're talking 600x400 pixels of #FF0000, flashing.

Dilpil 17y ago
Hmm, I don't see anything in Mozilla.
Zev 17y ago
I don't see this ad in Safari 4 on Mac.

biohacker42 17y ago

It has been very interesting to watch the information flow in Iran. Full disclosure: I was born and raised behind the iron curtain so I've thought a lot about autocratic regimes and network theory. It's very difficult if not impossible to stop a human wave revolution. Even if the police have guns and the protesters don't, it is usually impossible to stop, regimes just topple. Violent regime change by small groups of people also happens, but I want to concentrate on the classic thrown off by the populace scenario. To keep a population down, to have a police state and stay in power you need some percentage X of that population to function as police. To do it by brute force requires such a large X that it's hard to function as a state, see North Korea. But you can get away with a much smaller X if you can disrupt the formation of a human wave. And the best way to do that is fear, intimidation and preventing the flow of information. That's why police states spy on their people and control the media. Parades are for propaganda, except they can also turn to bad, see Romania and Ceauşescu. The spying is not about getting everyone who's dissatisfied with the regime. It's about getting at least some of the super links, and intimidating the rest. Controlling the media is about preventing synchronization, you want to prevent EVERYONE going out on the street at the same time. So no braking news, or reports of demonstrations. If there are large demonstrations anywhere, you definitely don't put that on TV, much less live TV. Even industrial accidents are suppressed and then slowly leaked over time, days. You just don't want to give anyone a reason to panic. Controlling a populace like that is very much like crowd control, it's even somewhat similar to how you control an animal that could kill you if it got spooked, like a horse. That control occasionally slips. Soccer is huge in the rest of the world and soccer matches are live even in autocratic regimes. And usually that's not a problem. Except when a soccer riot at live soccer match starts a revolution. Interestingly, I recall hearing that North Korea would not show the South Korean team's games in the soccer world cup live. And what Iran is doing is very smart. Evil but smart. Shutting down Facebook and youtube is smart. Why they left Twitter open is anyone's guess. Breaking up the crowds while they are still small, announcing fake rallies is poisoning the information well. Given how important information is to regime change, I am stunned the CIA has not done more to make Facebook unblockable, or at least difficult to block. Or airdropped encrypted satellite cell phones on the crowds. I am surprised and depressed there aren't free information distribution tools being made and given away by the NSA, CIA, etc to everybody living in autocratic regimes. It saddens me to think this is because they fear those tools could be used against friendly dictators. Watching the brutality of the police in Iran, how they beat people, students, women, anyone, I keep thinking to myself: Iran needs soccer hooligans. Iran needs semi-pro, British, well organized, taking-hooliganism-as-a-serious-hobby, with many years experience hooligans. And lots of them. Why are we not parachuting them into Tehran? You can also watch the crowds react, flow around blockades or confront them when numbers are on their side. And the police go from bullies to running away as fast as the balance of numbers changes. Watching has been painful, but Iran is after all the nation that used the human wave attack in the Iran-Iraq war, so I can't help but expect that to happen to the current regime soon.

bint 17y ago

Yeah, it would not surprise me one bit if all this mayhem in Iran is eventually found to have America's fingerprints all over it. Remember the Orange Revolution and Yushchenko (the acid-on-face guy) in Ukraine not so long ago? Quote: 'an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing…' http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa The situation in Iran, esp. the reaction to the Twittering, strikes me as the exact same thing, especially given the US history in the region covertly bringing down the democratic government of Mossadeq. Israel and therefore America want to destabilise Iran at any cost. They don't want democracy, they want a 'friendly' democracy -- that's the key. It's been going on covertly and not-so-covertly for a long time: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2002/09/12/Netanyahu_US_should_attack_Iran_with_TV/UPI-63711031863825/ http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2002/09/12/Netanyahu_US_should_a...

rjurney 17y ago
Its not really fair to talk about US meddling in Ukraine during the Orange Revolution without mentioning the overwhelming Russian meddling in Ukraine that it sought to oppose.
- bint 17y ago
  So because they do it, it's okay for us to do it too? We've moved completely away from the "Trade with all nations and have emnity with none" of the Founders to the Machiavelian games of Brezinski, Kissenger and their friends at the CFR. Why did the CIA plan and execute a coup against the democratically-elected Hugo Chavez, and attempt to overthow the legitimate democracy in Venezuela? How can it be justified from a non-Machiavelian (i.e. moral) worldview? Can it? The crazy thing is, the US subverts democracy in the name of democracy.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - rjurney 17y ago
    In case you didn't notice: the FSB took over Russia, and they are evil. They don't have Ukraine's best interest in mind in anything they do. They want to start a civil war, and annex the Russian part of Ukraine. Can you make such a case for opposing overwhelming foreign intervention in Venezuela? No. Therefore our meddling there was wrong. Not the same as Russia/Ukraine. We were opposing a takeover in Ukraine.

raheemm 17y ago

Sort of unrelated but why does Facebook not co-opt Twitter. It does not seem to be all that hard. Problem with Twitter is that there is no way to verify identity. I always have a suspicion that the tweets from guy in Iran is really just some bozo in the state dept or the Iranian revolutionary guard.

jmillikin 17y ago
I do not think any authentic protesters would be using Twitter if their identities could be "verified".
brown9-2 17y ago
And how do you verify identity on Facebook?

sfphotoarts 17y ago

I just looked at the State Dept's website to see exactly what their mission is. They still have a page from 2007 outlining the will of the then President Bush. Maybe they should think about updating their own website sometime...

jmhodges 17y ago

Looks like the new url is: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/17/state-asks-twitter-to-keep-site-up-in-iran/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/17/state-asks-t... The day seems to have changed. (Perhaps their CMS updates the url as a side effect of saving an update that happens on a new day?)

axod 17y ago

Debunked: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8104318.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8104318.stm