8 ms·

Torvalds: SteamOS will "really help" Linux on desktop

officemonkey 13y ago
The only reason I chose Windows over Mac OS X for my new home computer is I wanted to play games on it. If SteamOS lets me play AAA games (and not just Portal, Half-Life, Left4Dead and Team Fortress) AND it lets me run XBMC or Plex or some other TV software, then I'd switch in a second.
- mr337 13y ago
  Pretty sure it will, if not we can def make it do that. I am so looking forward to this.
- EvanKelly 13y ago
  I'm certainly not a "gamer" any longer, but I still have a pretty healthy Steam library. I've been very happy with the increasing options on Mac OS X and I hope they keep improving. I'm way more excited about slower, turn-based games, and Civ V, Europa Universalis, and FTL have been enough to keep me from searching for anything else. Despite this, I know I've been missing out on games I would probably love. I think I see a SteamOS device in my future.
- ZeroGravitas 13y ago
  If you've already bought the machine and Windows OS then you should be able to install steam on it, buy their new controller and have a roughly similar experience with the big difference that the whole steam library will work today, without requiring streaming from another box. SteamOS will be great for linux, but people seem to assume Valve are taking a very exclusive, traditional console approach, when they're trying something a bit different. I also assume that basically any Steam game that comes native to Linuxt will also come to Mac OS X.
Havoc 13y ago
I'm glad he approves of it. Generally if he doesn't approve of something like this then it triggers a string of "Torvalds says" articles that do nothing for nix. Then someone brings up a RMS angle and then it all devolves into an artificially created shtstorm which keeps the entire FOSS scene in this constant paralyzed state. Personally I think Valve - as great as they are - will step on a pile of RMS flavored toes. So be it. They bring raw power to the (desktop) nix world like never before. nix hasn't really moved an inch on the desktop front anyway...whats the worse that could happen? The risk is acceptable given the massive potential progress. I think it'll also provide much needed focus to the nix world. Sure variety has its benefit...but at some point it becomes fragmentation not variety. A central vocal point like valve will go a long way to fixing that.
- unlogic 13y ago
  nix hasn't really moved an inch on the desktop front anyway What a ridiculous thing to say. Millions of people use *nix operating systems on their desktop computers every day. This number is significantly higher than a few years ago. When I hear someone complaining about state of GNU/Linux on desktops, they usually mean they can't play gamez. Sometimes they add something about lacking good video drivers (to play gamez). And by your statement you reduce the whole range of possible computer uses to gaming. Maybe we shouldn't confuse "linux in entertainment" with "linux on desktops"? Former is only a subset of the latter. Don't get me wrong, I like playing, and I adore Valve and their games. But for many GNU/Linux users giving up their freedoms may not be worth another brainless AAA title.
  - balabaster 13y ago
    I'll complain about it, I'm not a gamer... Ubuntu won't even suspend/sleep properly under LUKS for crypting out loud!
  - GrinningFool 13y ago
    It has moved on the desktop front - a few inches anyway. I use desktop linux as my primary OS every day. It's still not ready for prime time, but it's finally close enough that I can deal with it. Some fun things that happen to me on a regular basis - you'll note that these issues have nothing to do with "gamez": * my sound stops working and/or diverts to anther output. I still can't get it to detect when I put in a mic or headphones with any reliability. Yes, the hardware is compatible. * behavior on attempted suspend or wake is always a crapshoot. * it shuffles my desktop layout every time I unplug/replug in my two external monitors * memory gradually gets consumed. Even doing a restart of X doesn't fix it. (No, I'm not talking about cache.) Under mac I was rebooting once a month. Under windows it was once a week. On *desktop* linux I do it every 2-3 days just to keep things working. (Server-side linux goes for months.) * sometimes networking stops working. I have to disconnect/reconnect wifi. * invariably, on a daily basis, I find I have to tweak *something* to make it work or keep it working. * Here's a fun one: using vim with clientserver enabled resets my Konsole appearance profile (fonts, colors, transparency) every time I open the editor or remote-open a file with an existing session. Obviously none of these are deal breakers - the positives outweigh the negatives. The control, user interface, tools and projects available, and many other things make the tradeoff worth it to me. But I wouldn't call it a smooth experience, or even an experience on-par with other desktop OSes if we're talking about ability to "just work" without issues. "But for many GNU/Linux users giving up their freedoms may not be worth another brainless AAA title." Neither you, I nor any other users who are intensely interested in freedoms are the target audience for SteamOS. SteamOS won't affect what you and those users and I can use Linux for. And - because I suspect somebody will pipe up with some veiled-snark solutions or suggestions for my issues - you're missing the point. When using a stable desktop OS, I should not have to spend time on these things. I didn't have to on either Mac or Windows.
moocowduckquack 13y ago
If they help sort out some decent graphics driver code I will love them forever and send them cake on their birthday.
- officemonkey 13y ago
  No cake necessary, just buy their games. :-D
  - evanb 13y ago
    Yeah, the cake was a lie.
    - moocowduckquack 13y ago
      shh...
    - FlailFast 13y ago
      You monster.
massysett 13y ago
"The desktop" that is relevant for GNU/Linux distributions is a stagnant, shrinking market. You will see more Chromebooks than you will ever see Linux desktops. At first glance SteamOS does not even look like a GNU/Linux desktop. It's supposed to be a living room machine, complete with its own "SteamBox." Attributing anything important to SteamOS is akin to saying "Roku is Linux; this is really going to help us get some drivers."
- ZeroGravitas 13y ago
  I'm guessing you don't count chromebooks/ boxes as "Linux desktops"?
  - massysett 13y ago
    No, I'm not an RMS disciple but here I said GNU/Linux for a reason. Chromebooks aren't GNU/Linux. Torvalds doesn't seem to be saying that Steam will help with Chromebook-like devices--and why would it? The manufacturer will do what it takes to get the drivers working on those devices.
    - ZeroGravitas 13y ago
      If you use just "Linux", then there's some ambiguity. If you use both "GNU/Linux" and "Linux" to refer to the same thing in consecutive sentences, then that's plain misleading.
    - teho 13y ago
      >Chromebooks aren't GNU/Linux. It does use glibc and many other common software found in GNU/Linux systems. I'd say it's a GNU/Linux system.
balabaster 13y ago
The reason Linux hasn't seen widespread adoption isn't just that it doesn't have the marketing power of Microsoft behind it. It's flaky, it lacks support for a wide variety of hardware, it requires a level of understanding that the vast majority of the population just don't have time or willingness to gain, it lacks obvious usability features in the most recent versions of major distros. The general population requires their computer to make their life easier, Linux just doesn't do that. I've been hacking around with Ubuntu now for the past month and I'm still not satisfied with it. I have a laundry list of things that are far from satisfactory that I don't yet have the capability of fixing myself... and I've been developing software for 20 years. If the learning curve is this steep for a long time developer, imagine how daunting it is to the general public. They don't get a computer because they want something to tinker with and figure out how it works for hundreds of hours a week, they want a computer to do something for them that will enrich or simplify their life in some fashion. Perhaps if some of the more fundamental features were fixed instead of adding nice to have trinkets, you'd find more people will take it more seriously. I shouldn't have to go and hack around with complicated and potentially not-yet-existing files, referencing incomplete or inaccurate blog posts written by the last guy who tried what you're attempting and got so pissed off with it that he thought he'd save the next idiot the headache he'd just gone through - only to omit the most important piece of information that's not to be found anywhere else on the internet. That is why Windows has a major market. Because unlike Linux, shit just works... for the most part. They say that Linux is free as in "freedom", but honestly, how free are you when you have to spend all your time tied to the computer just to get shit working? I'm trying to love Linux, I really am, I'm on my 4th distro in 2 months and so far I feel like the only thing I've achieved is getting Stockholm Syndrome. If Steam can fix this, I say please, please bring it on. Torvalds, I think you've got the right idea, honest to God I do, and I'm trying to love your system but it seriously needs some love from developers and usability experts that understand people.
- JimmaDaRustla 13y ago
  Same here! I'm a technologically educated person, I use command line Linux for all my VMs and servers, I love it...but nothing "just works" when you jump to a UI powered by Linux. So, I run a Samba share on my VMs and configure my desktop to be friendly.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Sheepshow 13y ago
I know this isn't the point of the article, but: > developers focus on useless UX features This is the number one reason I have personally delivered poor quality software.
asmman1 13y ago
It makes me wonder how different is this one from the dozen of Linux distributions around. Will this one solve any of the followings problems? if so, it's a very good start. Linux is hard to use on day-day. Even you chose the most friendly distribution (like Ubuntu) Almost nothing works in the first try to install. Look, I failed to get the newly gcc version (I really want it) because I need to compile from source code and a lot of libs is missing from my system and when I try to install others lot of libs is missing too. It's get in looping. I got the latest version of Microsoft Visual Studio in just one second. Where can I get something better? Also, nowdays everybody is switching to a XBOX/PS4 etc and no longer do much play on PC. I don't have numbers, but I can seen it's changing a lot. It shouldn't decrease, just unlike, it means in a future (very close) playing big games on PC is almost dead. Why should someone invest time and money in something going to no longer exists? PC is something that the peoples will continues to have to work and browser on internet, if not on your smartphone/tablet.
- arjie 13y ago
  GCC 4.8 is in the repos. Interesting that you had trouble getting it.
  - asmman1 13y ago
    Show me how to install it?
drill_sarge 13y ago
I think it will help not exclusively _Linux_ but it will help more to get real support behind graphics drivers. Sure, some of this is directly related to the kernel (like power management, switchable graphics etc.) but mostly it is stuff which isn't directly related to the kernel (e.g. mesa, xorg, wayland). What I see recently that AMD has really stepped up too (if you own Radeon HD, not the very old Xwhatever series), contributing to kernel code and mesa drivers. Nvidia has some pretty good proprietary drivers, but heh... they are proprietary. Thats the main problem I have: Both AMD/Nvidia closed drivers offer better 3D performance, better feature support for their chips etc. but when I have trouble with graphics on my system, it's because of the closed drivers. You never know if they still work after updating.

The only reason I chose Windows over Mac OS X for my new home computer is I wanted to play games on it. If SteamOS lets me play AAA games (and not just Portal, Half-Life, Left4Dead and Team Fortress) AND it lets me run XBMC or Plex or some other TV software, then I'd switch in a second.

mr337 13y ago
Pretty sure it will, if not we can def make it do that. I am so looking forward to this.
EvanKelly 13y ago
I'm certainly not a "gamer" any longer, but I still have a pretty healthy Steam library. I've been very happy with the increasing options on Mac OS X and I hope they keep improving. I'm way more excited about slower, turn-based games, and Civ V, Europa Universalis, and FTL have been enough to keep me from searching for anything else. Despite this, I know I've been missing out on games I would probably love. I think I see a SteamOS device in my future.
ZeroGravitas 13y ago
If you've already bought the machine and Windows OS then you should be able to install steam on it, buy their new controller and have a roughly similar experience with the big difference that the whole steam library will work today, without requiring streaming from another box. SteamOS will be great for linux, but people seem to assume Valve are taking a very exclusive, traditional console approach, when they're trying something a bit different. I also assume that basically any Steam game that comes native to Linuxt will also come to Mac OS X.

Havoc 13y ago

I'm glad he approves of it. Generally if he doesn't approve of something like this then it triggers a string of "Torvalds says" articles that do nothing for nix. Then someone brings up a RMS angle and then it all devolves into an artificially created shtstorm which keeps the entire FOSS scene in this constant paralyzed state. Personally I think Valve - as great as they are - will step on a pile of RMS flavored toes. So be it. They bring raw power to the (desktop) nix world like never before. nix hasn't really moved an inch on the desktop front anyway...whats the worse that could happen? The risk is acceptable given the massive potential progress. I think it'll also provide much needed focus to the nix world. Sure variety has its benefit...but at some point it becomes fragmentation not variety. A central vocal point like valve will go a long way to fixing that.

unlogic 13y ago
nix hasn't really moved an inch on the desktop front anyway What a ridiculous thing to say. Millions of people use *nix operating systems on their desktop computers every day. This number is significantly higher than a few years ago. When I hear someone complaining about state of GNU/Linux on desktops, they usually mean they can't play gamez. Sometimes they add something about lacking good video drivers (to play gamez). And by your statement you reduce the whole range of possible computer uses to gaming. Maybe we shouldn't confuse "linux in entertainment" with "linux on desktops"? Former is only a subset of the latter. Don't get me wrong, I like playing, and I adore Valve and their games. But for many GNU/Linux users giving up their freedoms may not be worth another brainless AAA title.
- balabaster 13y ago
  I'll complain about it, I'm not a gamer... Ubuntu won't even suspend/sleep properly under LUKS for crypting out loud!
- GrinningFool 13y ago
  It has moved on the desktop front - a few inches anyway. I use desktop linux as my primary OS every day. It's still not ready for prime time, but it's finally close enough that I can deal with it. Some fun things that happen to me on a regular basis - you'll note that these issues have nothing to do with "gamez": * my sound stops working and/or diverts to anther output. I still can't get it to detect when I put in a mic or headphones with any reliability. Yes, the hardware is compatible. * behavior on attempted suspend or wake is always a crapshoot. * it shuffles my desktop layout every time I unplug/replug in my two external monitors * memory gradually gets consumed. Even doing a restart of X doesn't fix it. (No, I'm not talking about cache.) Under mac I was rebooting once a month. Under windows it was once a week. On *desktop* linux I do it every 2-3 days just to keep things working. (Server-side linux goes for months.) * sometimes networking stops working. I have to disconnect/reconnect wifi. * invariably, on a daily basis, I find I have to tweak *something* to make it work or keep it working. * Here's a fun one: using vim with clientserver enabled resets my Konsole appearance profile (fonts, colors, transparency) every time I open the editor or remote-open a file with an existing session. Obviously none of these are deal breakers - the positives outweigh the negatives. The control, user interface, tools and projects available, and many other things make the tradeoff worth it to me. But I wouldn't call it a smooth experience, or even an experience on-par with other desktop OSes if we're talking about ability to "just work" without issues. "But for many GNU/Linux users giving up their freedoms may not be worth another brainless AAA title." Neither you, I nor any other users who are intensely interested in freedoms are the target audience for SteamOS. SteamOS won't affect what you and those users and I can use Linux for. And - because I suspect somebody will pipe up with some veiled-snark solutions or suggestions for my issues - you're missing the point. When using a stable desktop OS, I should not have to spend time on these things. I didn't have to on either Mac or Windows.

moocowduckquack 13y ago

If they help sort out some decent graphics driver code I will love them forever and send them cake on their birthday.

officemonkey 13y ago
No cake necessary, just buy their games. :-D
- evanb 13y ago
  Yeah, the cake was a lie.
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    shh...
  - FlailFast 13y ago
    You monster.

massysett 13y ago

"The desktop" that is relevant for GNU/Linux distributions is a stagnant, shrinking market. You will see more Chromebooks than you will ever see Linux desktops. At first glance SteamOS does not even look like a GNU/Linux desktop. It's supposed to be a living room machine, complete with its own "SteamBox." Attributing anything important to SteamOS is akin to saying "Roku is Linux; this is really going to help us get some drivers."

ZeroGravitas 13y ago
I'm guessing you don't count chromebooks/ boxes as "Linux desktops"?
- massysett 13y ago
  No, I'm not an RMS disciple but here I said GNU/Linux for a reason. Chromebooks aren't GNU/Linux. Torvalds doesn't seem to be saying that Steam will help with Chromebook-like devices--and why would it? The manufacturer will do what it takes to get the drivers working on those devices.
  - ZeroGravitas 13y ago
    If you use just "Linux", then there's some ambiguity. If you use both "GNU/Linux" and "Linux" to refer to the same thing in consecutive sentences, then that's plain misleading.
  - teho 13y ago
    >Chromebooks aren't GNU/Linux. It does use glibc and many other common software found in GNU/Linux systems. I'd say it's a GNU/Linux system.

balabaster 13y ago

The reason Linux hasn't seen widespread adoption isn't just that it doesn't have the marketing power of Microsoft behind it. It's flaky, it lacks support for a wide variety of hardware, it requires a level of understanding that the vast majority of the population just don't have time or willingness to gain, it lacks obvious usability features in the most recent versions of major distros. The general population requires their computer to make their life easier, Linux just doesn't do that. I've been hacking around with Ubuntu now for the past month and I'm still not satisfied with it. I have a laundry list of things that are far from satisfactory that I don't yet have the capability of fixing myself... and I've been developing software for 20 years. If the learning curve is this steep for a long time developer, imagine how daunting it is to the general public. They don't get a computer because they want something to tinker with and figure out how it works for hundreds of hours a week, they want a computer to do something for them that will enrich or simplify their life in some fashion. Perhaps if some of the more fundamental features were fixed instead of adding nice to have trinkets, you'd find more people will take it more seriously. I shouldn't have to go and hack around with complicated and potentially not-yet-existing files, referencing incomplete or inaccurate blog posts written by the last guy who tried what you're attempting and got so pissed off with it that he thought he'd save the next idiot the headache he'd just gone through - only to omit the most important piece of information that's not to be found anywhere else on the internet. That is why Windows has a major market. Because unlike Linux, shit just works... for the most part. They say that Linux is free as in "freedom", but honestly, how free are you when you have to spend all your time tied to the computer just to get shit working? I'm trying to love Linux, I really am, I'm on my 4th distro in 2 months and so far I feel like the only thing I've achieved is getting Stockholm Syndrome. If Steam can fix this, I say please, please bring it on. Torvalds, I think you've got the right idea, honest to God I do, and I'm trying to love your system but it seriously needs some love from developers and usability experts that understand people.

JimmaDaRustla 13y ago
Same here! I'm a technologically educated person, I use command line Linux for all my VMs and servers, I love it...but nothing "just works" when you jump to a UI powered by Linux. So, I run a Samba share on my VMs and configure my desktop to be friendly.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Sheepshow 13y ago

I know this isn't the point of the article, but: > developers focus on useless UX features This is the number one reason I have personally delivered poor quality software.

asmman1 13y ago

It makes me wonder how different is this one from the dozen of Linux distributions around. Will this one solve any of the followings problems? if so, it's a very good start. Linux is hard to use on day-day. Even you chose the most friendly distribution (like Ubuntu) Almost nothing works in the first try to install. Look, I failed to get the newly gcc version (I really want it) because I need to compile from source code and a lot of libs is missing from my system and when I try to install others lot of libs is missing too. It's get in looping. I got the latest version of Microsoft Visual Studio in just one second. Where can I get something better? Also, nowdays everybody is switching to a XBOX/PS4 etc and no longer do much play on PC. I don't have numbers, but I can seen it's changing a lot. It shouldn't decrease, just unlike, it means in a future (very close) playing big games on PC is almost dead. Why should someone invest time and money in something going to no longer exists? PC is something that the peoples will continues to have to work and browser on internet, if not on your smartphone/tablet.

arjie 13y ago
GCC 4.8 is in the repos. Interesting that you had trouble getting it.
- asmman1 13y ago
  Show me how to install it?

drill_sarge 13y ago

I think it will help not exclusively _Linux_ but it will help more to get real support behind graphics drivers. Sure, some of this is directly related to the kernel (like power management, switchable graphics etc.) but mostly it is stuff which isn't directly related to the kernel (e.g. mesa, xorg, wayland). What I see recently that AMD has really stepped up too (if you own Radeon HD, not the very old Xwhatever series), contributing to kernel code and mesa drivers. Nvidia has some pretty good proprietary drivers, but heh... they are proprietary. Thats the main problem I have: Both AMD/Nvidia closed drivers offer better 3D performance, better feature support for their chips etc. but when I have trouble with graphics on my system, it's because of the closed drivers. You never know if they still work after updating.