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> So Walmart cares about the health of it's employees, just not enough to provide them with a reasonable health care option. Walmart is not a person. It does n

by maratd 13y ago

> So Walmart cares about the health of it's employees, just not enough to provide them with a reasonable health care option. Walmart is not a person. It does not care one way or another. Not because it's evil, but because it's not a person. It can't care. About anything. This entire "don't be evil" crap has really got to stop. Corporations respond to incentives, not moral arguments. If we, as a society, have decided that we want employers to completely provide for the health of their employees, that's fine. We should make laws requiring them to do so, with penalties in tow for non-compliance. But please stop the entire "they just don't care!" crap. They're not supposed to. They're corporations, not people. And yes, I know people run those corporations. Those people have fiduciary responsibilities to their stockholders, not to your moral compass. This is something resolved on a societal level, not on the corporate level.

shiftpgdn 13y ago
Then shouldn't Costco cut all of its employees salaries by half? They are a publicly traded company as well you know...
- maratd 13y ago
  Costco is the way it is, not because it's a saint, but because of the market it occupies. It is, for all intents and purposes, a wholesaler. They sell things in bulk. That's their thing. And they don't hold your hand while doing it. There are no friendly people walking the isles willing to direct you, just cashiers. You pay for access. They only take AmEx, etc. Mind you, I love the place, but it is the way it is because of what it is, not because it cares.
  - shiftpgdn 13y ago
    I don't shop at Wal-Mart because of their Union busting but last time I went to Costco there were a handful of "floor" employees wandering around to be found if you needed help. Costco pays its employees well because their CEO thinks happy employees lead to better workers[1]. In fact the last big box store I shopped at which was Home Depot had less people around to help than Costco. I realize that's anecdotal but you can't write down high employee salaries as "Being just a wholesaler". [1]http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-06/costco-ceo-craig-jelinek-leads-the-cheapest-happiest-company-in-the-world http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-06/costco-ceo-c...
- npc 13y ago
  I think the whole point is that "should" and "shouldn't" simply aren't very useful concepts when dealing with corporations, like talking about what a slime mold should or shouldn't do. Getting morally outraged at WalMart is like getting really indignant about what plantar fasciitis is up to. Individuals will respond to moral accusations, but corporations are really only effectively controlled via legislation.
  - nikatwork 13y ago
    > Getting morally outraged at WalMart is like getting really indignant about what plantar fasciitis is up to. Except plantar fasciitis doesn't have a CEO, board or steering committee. Or a public reputation. > but corporations are really only effectively controlled via legislation. That's true, but it doesn't mean we can't publicly shame corporations when they act in bad faith. Incorporation is not some magical get-out-of-ethics-jail-free card.
- victoro 13y ago
  This Walmart vs Costco nonsense has got to stop. They serve completely different segments of the market. I won't bother rehashing here what others have argued much better (and with data to back it up). Just go read this and stop making the comparison already: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-27/why-walmart-will-never-pay-like-costco.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-27/why-walmart-will-ne... (This article was also posted on HN a couple weeks back)
- adventured 13y ago
  If you want Walmart to run like Costco, Walmart has to fire over a million people to drastically bring down their head count to match the substantially fewer people that Costco employs compared to Walmart on a sales basis. Costco sales: $99b | Costco employees: 175,000 Walmart sales: $469b | Walmart employees: 2+ million As someone else noted, they're very different businesses. The comparison is Samsclub vs Costco. If you want to know the job killer in retail, look no further than Amazon.com. While all the pundits are busy chewing on Walmart, at least Walmart employs a ton of people (I'm not arguing that's good or bad, it's just amusing that the pundits are universally missing the elephant running down the road). Here's Amazon's ratios: FY12: $61b sales | Employees: 88,000 Amazon would have perhaps 500,000 to 750,000 employees at Walmart's size. That's assuming Amazon would ever hire all those people to begin with (the KIVA purchase says they would rather not). Amazon can avoid all the labor problems, by simply not hiring so many people in the first place. Whereas to compete with Amazon, Walmart might have to fire a lot of people and shift to heavy automation. That isn't going to go well for Walmart = massive strikes, national headlines, endless political pressure.
panarky 13y ago
As someone famous once said, "Corporations are people, my friend." But seriously, please stop with the "fiduciary responsibility to stockholders" crap, as if that's the only responsibility people have to each other. Too many companies extract profit for themselves by imposing negative externalities on their employees, on taxpayers, and on the environment. We can't legislate all of this away, so there's a healthy role for shame, for protest, and for boycott. By the way, it's possible to care for your employees AND make a profit. Costco treats their employees well and still makes a killing for their stockholders.
- gwright 13y ago
  Despite the original author's claim, Costco and Walmart aren't really competitors. They have much different product mixes and customer demographics, i.e. they serve different markets.
  - derleth 13y ago
    Great article on the subject, which turned into the first in a series: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-27/why-walmart-will-never-pay-like-costco.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-27/why-walmart-will-ne... ("Why Wal-Mart Will Never Pay Like Costco", By Megan McArdle, Bloomberg, Aug 27, 2013 12:29 PM MT) Key paragraph: > In other words, Trader Joe’s and Costco are the specialty grocer and warehouse club for an affluent, educated college demographic. They woo this crowd with a stripped-down array of high quality stock-keeping units, and high-quality customer service. The high wages produce the high levels of customer service, and the small number of products are what allow them to pay the high wages. Fewer products to handle (and restock) lowers the labor intensity of your operation. In the case of Trader Joe’s, it also dramatically decreases the amount of space you need for your supermarket ... which in turn is why their revenue per square foot is so high. (Costco solves this problem by leaving the stuff on pallets, so that you can be your own stockboy). And Walmart is the exact opposite of those things: It thrives on selling poor people everything they need and can afford, and they need lots of cheap labor to do everything a Walmart store needs to do on a daily basis.
- chongli 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
nikatwork 13y ago
> Those people have fiduciary responsibilities to their stockholders, not to your moral compass. This is something resolved on a societal level, not on the corporate level. This is the kind of ethical cop-out non-philosophy that's tearing then American environment apart. A corporation can be a good global citizen, or a rapacious parasite. They are not obliged to rape the fuck out of everything in sight to turn a short-term profit for shareholders. Let alone lobby/bribe the government to open new loopholes so they can pillage harder and faster. Doing so is bad for the long-term prosperity of their country, and the shareholders. No really - don't be evil.
- derleth 13y ago
  >> Those people have fiduciary responsibilities to their stockholders, not to your moral compass. This is something resolved on a societal level, not on the corporate level. > This is the kind of ethical cop-out non-philosophy that's tearing then American environment apart. It's possible to describe something without agreeing with it. Responding to that statement the way you did is pointless. It's like getting angry at the doctor who tells you the cancer you have is almost certain to kill you. What you quoted is simple observable fact, verified in many ways through history, and becoming angry at someone for stating it means you are angry and it is still a simple observable fact, verified in many ways through history.
  - aaronbrethorst 13y ago
    > Responding to that statement the way you did is pointless. It's like getting angry at the doctor who tells you the cancer you have is almost certain to kill you. Disagree. It's like getting angry at the doctor who tells you your two pack a day smoking habit is incredibly bad for you, and may well result in cancer or emphysema.
  - nikatwork 13y ago
    > It's possible to describe something without agreeing with it. GP was not simply describing - they were excusing. "Oh well, some corporations are evil, don't complain, it's not their job to be good corporate citizens." Actually by calling out and disagreeing with this behavior we can change it. The most effective way is through strong regulations, but the current US government system is broken and flawed. But at the very least we can use websites such as change.org and sumofus.org to put pressure on bad corporate actors. Hell, we quite often see the same thing happen on HN in miniature when someone makes a post calling out a company - and that company is forced to respond to the resulting negative publicity. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing", and all that.

by maratd 13y ago

shiftpgdn 13y ago

Then shouldn't Costco cut all of its employees salaries by half? They are a publicly traded company as well you know...

maratd 13y ago
Costco is the way it is, not because it's a saint, but because of the market it occupies. It is, for all intents and purposes, a wholesaler. They sell things in bulk. That's their thing. And they don't hold your hand while doing it. There are no friendly people walking the isles willing to direct you, just cashiers. You pay for access. They only take AmEx, etc. Mind you, I love the place, but it is the way it is because of what it is, not because it cares.
- shiftpgdn 13y ago
  I don't shop at Wal-Mart because of their Union busting but last time I went to Costco there were a handful of "floor" employees wandering around to be found if you needed help. Costco pays its employees well because their CEO thinks happy employees lead to better workers[1]. In fact the last big box store I shopped at which was Home Depot had less people around to help than Costco. I realize that's anecdotal but you can't write down high employee salaries as "Being just a wholesaler". [1]http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-06/costco-ceo-craig-jelinek-leads-the-cheapest-happiest-company-in-the-world http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-06/costco-ceo-c...
npc 13y ago
I think the whole point is that "should" and "shouldn't" simply aren't very useful concepts when dealing with corporations, like talking about what a slime mold should or shouldn't do. Getting morally outraged at WalMart is like getting really indignant about what plantar fasciitis is up to. Individuals will respond to moral accusations, but corporations are really only effectively controlled via legislation.
- nikatwork 13y ago
  > Getting morally outraged at WalMart is like getting really indignant about what plantar fasciitis is up to. Except plantar fasciitis doesn't have a CEO, board or steering committee. Or a public reputation. > but corporations are really only effectively controlled via legislation. That's true, but it doesn't mean we can't publicly shame corporations when they act in bad faith. Incorporation is not some magical get-out-of-ethics-jail-free card.
victoro 13y ago
This Walmart vs Costco nonsense has got to stop. They serve completely different segments of the market. I won't bother rehashing here what others have argued much better (and with data to back it up). Just go read this and stop making the comparison already: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-27/why-walmart-will-never-pay-like-costco.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-27/why-walmart-will-ne... (This article was also posted on HN a couple weeks back)
adventured 13y ago
If you want Walmart to run like Costco, Walmart has to fire over a million people to drastically bring down their head count to match the substantially fewer people that Costco employs compared to Walmart on a sales basis. Costco sales: $99b | Costco employees: 175,000 Walmart sales: $469b | Walmart employees: 2+ million As someone else noted, they're very different businesses. The comparison is Samsclub vs Costco. If you want to know the job killer in retail, look no further than Amazon.com. While all the pundits are busy chewing on Walmart, at least Walmart employs a ton of people (I'm not arguing that's good or bad, it's just amusing that the pundits are universally missing the elephant running down the road). Here's Amazon's ratios: FY12: $61b sales | Employees: 88,000 Amazon would have perhaps 500,000 to 750,000 employees at Walmart's size. That's assuming Amazon would ever hire all those people to begin with (the KIVA purchase says they would rather not). Amazon can avoid all the labor problems, by simply not hiring so many people in the first place. Whereas to compete with Amazon, Walmart might have to fire a lot of people and shift to heavy automation. That isn't going to go well for Walmart = massive strikes, national headlines, endless political pressure.

panarky 13y ago

As someone famous once said, "Corporations are people, my friend." But seriously, please stop with the "fiduciary responsibility to stockholders" crap, as if that's the only responsibility people have to each other. Too many companies extract profit for themselves by imposing negative externalities on their employees, on taxpayers, and on the environment. We can't legislate all of this away, so there's a healthy role for shame, for protest, and for boycott. By the way, it's possible to care for your employees AND make a profit. Costco treats their employees well and still makes a killing for their stockholders.

gwright 13y ago
Despite the original author's claim, Costco and Walmart aren't really competitors. They have much different product mixes and customer demographics, i.e. they serve different markets.
- derleth 13y ago
  Great article on the subject, which turned into the first in a series: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-27/why-walmart-will-never-pay-like-costco.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-27/why-walmart-will-ne... ("Why Wal-Mart Will Never Pay Like Costco", By Megan McArdle, Bloomberg, Aug 27, 2013 12:29 PM MT) Key paragraph: > In other words, Trader Joe’s and Costco are the specialty grocer and warehouse club for an affluent, educated college demographic. They woo this crowd with a stripped-down array of high quality stock-keeping units, and high-quality customer service. The high wages produce the high levels of customer service, and the small number of products are what allow them to pay the high wages. Fewer products to handle (and restock) lowers the labor intensity of your operation. In the case of Trader Joe’s, it also dramatically decreases the amount of space you need for your supermarket ... which in turn is why their revenue per square foot is so high. (Costco solves this problem by leaving the stuff on pallets, so that you can be your own stockboy). And Walmart is the exact opposite of those things: It thrives on selling poor people everything they need and can afford, and they need lots of cheap labor to do everything a Walmart store needs to do on a daily basis.
chongli 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

nikatwork 13y ago

> Those people have fiduciary responsibilities to their stockholders, not to your moral compass. This is something resolved on a societal level, not on the corporate level. This is the kind of ethical cop-out non-philosophy that's tearing then American environment apart. A corporation can be a good global citizen, or a rapacious parasite. They are not obliged to rape the fuck out of everything in sight to turn a short-term profit for shareholders. Let alone lobby/bribe the government to open new loopholes so they can pillage harder and faster. Doing so is bad for the long-term prosperity of their country, and the shareholders. No really - don't be evil.

derleth 13y ago
>> Those people have fiduciary responsibilities to their stockholders, not to your moral compass. This is something resolved on a societal level, not on the corporate level. > This is the kind of ethical cop-out non-philosophy that's tearing then American environment apart. It's possible to describe something without agreeing with it. Responding to that statement the way you did is pointless. It's like getting angry at the doctor who tells you the cancer you have is almost certain to kill you. What you quoted is simple observable fact, verified in many ways through history, and becoming angry at someone for stating it means you are angry and it is still a simple observable fact, verified in many ways through history.
- aaronbrethorst 13y ago
  > Responding to that statement the way you did is pointless. It's like getting angry at the doctor who tells you the cancer you have is almost certain to kill you. Disagree. It's like getting angry at the doctor who tells you your two pack a day smoking habit is incredibly bad for you, and may well result in cancer or emphysema.
- nikatwork 13y ago
  > It's possible to describe something without agreeing with it. GP was not simply describing - they were excusing. "Oh well, some corporations are evil, don't complain, it's not their job to be good corporate citizens." Actually by calling out and disagreeing with this behavior we can change it. The most effective way is through strong regulations, but the current US government system is broken and flawed. But at the very least we can use websites such as change.org and sumofus.org to put pressure on bad corporate actors. Hell, we quite often see the same thing happen on HN in miniature when someone makes a post calling out a company - and that company is forced to respond to the resulting negative publicity. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing", and all that.