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This article is outrageous propaganda, I knew that the US government had issues with the Russian government, but it saddens me to see that most posters here hav

This article is outrageous propaganda, I knew that the US government had issues with the Russian government, but it saddens me to see that most posters here have nothing but hatred towards Russia. Just the fact that the NYT picked life in a gypsy settlement (no water, no electricity, child weddings) to generalize about the life in Russia makes it obvious to me that the journalists had no other intentions but to villify the Russians. What they did not tell you is that gypsy settlements look the same in France, Germany and other industrialized countries. (Yes - children not going to school, no electricity, no water, weddings of 13 year olds and so on)

CmonDev 13y ago
If you want to bomb... sorry I meant "democratize" something in 10 years, you better start pouring it with dirt right now.
- learc83 13y ago
  Yeah, that's never going to happen. Russia has nuclear weapons and wouldn't be afraid to use them, not to mention their sizable conventional forces.
  - GotAnyMegadeth 13y ago
    I think everyone is afraid to use nuclear weapons now
    - chris_mahan 13y ago
      I think everyone is afraid to even have nuclear weapons, and nuclear power plants too...
yummyfajitas 13y ago
This article is barely about Russia at all. It's mainly about wealth! privilege! inequality!, which is a perennial favorite topic of the NYT. You aren't expected to read this and thing "omfg, Russia is so bad". No one in the US is thinking this - all they are thinking is "omfg, if inequality keeps growing, the US will be like this". This is of course nonsense for various reasons (we don't have gypsies and therefore the bottom 50% will not adopt gypsy cultural indicators, and our inequality seems to be merely differing rates of positive growth). Note that many of the Americans on this thread are posting about Detroit, Appalachia and even Oakland (!?!?).
- psn 13y ago
  drive by comment: I don't know what you mean to imply by Oakland (!?!?), but... I took the amtrak south from Oakland, and I was shocked by the level of poverty thats visible from the train.
  - crazytony 13y ago
    the problem is that living near the rail line* has been traditionally one of the least desirable places to live. I'm not hand-waving away the poverty or even it's ratios but you will see lots of poverty around a rail line. *there's a long, long history here going way, way back in the US. Living near a light rail or a commuter station is completely different than living near a freight rail/mixed use rail
- rtpg 13y ago
  > (we don't have gypsies and therefore the bottom 50% will not adopt gypsy cultural indicators, Am I misreading this or are you throwing the "gypsies are like this because of culture making them lazy" argument? > and our inequality seems to be merely differing rates of positive growth) Then why has median purchasing power gone down for the past fifteen years? It doesn't matter if the dollar value goes up when prices go up faster.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    Am I misreading this or are you throwing the "gypsies are like this because of culture making them lazy" argument? I'm more referring to child marriage than anything else. Then why has median purchasing power gone down for the past fifteen years? This begs the question - if purchasing power went down over the past 15 years, people should be purchasing fewer goods and services than in 1998. What goods/services do you believe people have less of now than they did in 1998?
    - phurley 13y ago
      Upper education, health care, healthy food? It is easy to ignore if you are not at the bottom, but all of these things are less available to a growing number of people.
arcadeparade 13y ago
Yes, this article is a disgrace. Putin has built a relatively successful and stable economy, which worst of all for the NYT is both pursuing an independent path and is rich in natural resources. If they weren't able to defend themselves Russia would fulfil all 3 of Chomskys criteria for Western Intervention, however they have a capable defence and cannot be "Iraq'd" or "Libya'd", so instead of missiles they have to settle for black propaganda instead.
- vdaniuk 13y ago
  I am a citizen of a country near Russia and have a rather good knowledge about Russia internal politics and economics. Black propaganda, you say? That's adorable.
  - arcadeparade 13y ago
    Your comment adds nothing of value.
    - vdaniuk 13y ago
      It points out your biases in a humorous way while conveying information that I've first hand knowledge of the subject ;)
- zavulon 13y ago
  LOL @ 'relatively successful and stable economy'. Their economy is entirely based on selling off natural resources (sell 5%, steal 95% for yourself). When those resources run out, entire country will be bankrupt. Source: I'm from Russia and know what I'm talking about.
  - arcadeparade 13y ago
    Relative to Yeltsins Russia that is a success. And far more stable.
    - 13y ago
paganel 13y ago
> What they did not tell you is that gypsy settlements look the same in France, Germany and other industrialized countries Exactly. I'm Romanian and when I saw the photo with the young gypsy couple I said to myself: "Hey! These people look exactly like the gipsies I used to grow up with". At least I learned that there are gipsies in Russia, also.
r0h1n 13y ago
How is it propaganda? Are any of the facts mentioned false? Is the author implying that all of Russia is like this? As a journalist I find it very surprising when people react to specific articles (often "negative" to their own beliefs) by imagining a grand conspiracy. There are numerous realities in every country and every company. A skilled journalist can tell any one of those in an interesting manner. But that doesn't imply there aren't other stories. For instance, the USA is currently (a) leading the "software disruption" war (b) shut down and about to default because of partisan politics (c) spying indiscriminately on almost everyone in the world (d) incarcerating the largest proportion of its citizens (e) meddling in the affairs of numerous countries (f) reshoring manufacturing that had been outsourced (g) saddled with a fighter jet program that is outrageously expensive and possibly average (h) trying to reform one of the most convoluted & corrupt healthcare systems in the world Which of these are reality? Which are propaganda?
- grey-area 13y ago
  Is the author implying that all of Russia is like this? I did find that to be the implication, yes. e.g. At the edges of Russia’s two great cities, another Russia begins. - this implies that only the two largest cities in Russia are first world, and another decaying world begins beyond the pale. Perhaps that's an accurate description, but given the treatment of stories like the NSA surveillance in the NYT (severely lacking, and often just parroting the government line without question), Iraq wars (again, severely lacking), and the lack of similar treatments of similar US problems with decaying infrastructure, I'm inclined to think that there are plenty of other stories about Russia to be told which don't paint it as a third world country in decline, and that this is a somewhat biased, limited portrait. I cancelled my subscription recently because of the limited coverage of world events - it's just too one-sided, but perhaps that's inevitable when you're reporting from within a superpower. Which of these are reality? Which are propaganda? Well, quite. We rely on journalists to sift through information and give us a balanced story based on their perception of the truth. That means we need journalists to step outside the view of the world that their country, culture and government gives them and try to see it afresh, without preconceptions. So we have to trust them to some extent, and when that trust is abused to present things through a distorted prism, it is disheartening. Still, this is quality journalism (particularly the mix of map/graphics/text), and perhaps to say it is propaganda is a bit harsh, I'm not sure I'd go that far, but I do find the lack of balance and parochial worldview of the NYT and US press disturbing at times. The temptation is to see the world through a US prism without taking into account other viewpoints. Sometimes the NYT get it right though - for example this article on healthcare comparing systems around the world: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/health/colonoscopies-explain-why-us-leads-the-world-in-health-expenditures.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/health/colonoscopies-expla...
zavulon 13y ago
It's not propaganda, it's the truth. I'm originally from Russia and it's like that, or much worse.
- EugeneOZ 13y ago
  I'm Russian too but I see there only dirty facts. I live in Saint Petersburg now, but I lived 27 years in 2 another cities, small towns. One if them is rich, without gipsies, full of green woods and with clean streets. So yes, Russia is not a best country, but this article is a pure propaganda. I like story "Vasily" on Vimeo - there less propaganda and more true.
  - gtirloni 13y ago
    What cities in Russia would you currently consider decent for someone with a career in IT? Honest question.
    - MortenK 13y ago
      Moscow, Sct. Petersburg, Nizhniy Novgorod are the main hubs for Russian IT at the moment.
duaneb 13y ago
A) I was not aware the author was generalizing, and b) are you saying that the article only applies to gypsy settlements? What about the other topics?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
bgilroy26 13y ago
'The _____ left behind' is a phrase with a well established meaning. The poor parts of Eastern Kentucky, West Virginia, as are well as parts of the Ozarks are 'The America Left Behind'. Recently they have been seized upon by the artistic elite and made hip by music like Mumford and Sons and movies like The Hunger Games. The phrase means a subgroup that is not enjoying the prosperity that the rest of the group enjoys. To use the phrase, the author must believe the opposite of what you read.
Zigurd 13y ago
I agree this is propaganda, and it is dangerous. Despite the fact that bad roads and decaying villages are very real in Russia, Russia has tremendous oil and gas wealth, and the medium and long-term economic trends for Russia are upward. Russia has many symptoms of an industrial nation turning into a resource-extraction oligopoly, but it would be a very risky mistake to think Russia headed toward collapse. Russia may have many problems, but it will be a strong and rich nation. Allowing that fact to surprise us will lead to bad policy decisions.
anovikov 13y ago
As a Russian i know this is all true and much more than that. They never 'picked' gypsy settlement, it was one of the many places they visited. It was you DominikR who 'picked' the gypsy part out of the long article. Yes of course Roma are special. And they are nearly like that everywhere (possibly in places where they are living more permanently, like Romania, they are better off than in others, but more or less the same). This is part of Russian and European life. Native Americans are living about like that in the USA and nobody is trying to conceal that fact, or present things in a way that all of the USA is like that, neither does this article try to present all Russian to be gypsies and marry at 13. But looking at the article overally yes, this is how Russia actually lives. And, further away from large railways (railways, not highways, are the bloodlines of the economy in Russia, like in XIX century America) - and the places visited are closest to most important railway - things are much, much worse. In many places you will need AWD vehicle to move around, and even that possible only in dry summer, and find little more than rotten huts and peasants who look like zombies, and illiterate children who drink at the age of 10. These places were too scary to travel too (you can be killed just for wearing suit and tie and not looking like zombie), but THAT is also how about 20-30% of Russian live.

CmonDev 13y ago

If you want to bomb... sorry I meant "democratize" something in 10 years, you better start pouring it with dirt right now.

learc83 13y ago
Yeah, that's never going to happen. Russia has nuclear weapons and wouldn't be afraid to use them, not to mention their sizable conventional forces.
- GotAnyMegadeth 13y ago
  I think everyone is afraid to use nuclear weapons now
  - chris_mahan 13y ago
    I think everyone is afraid to even have nuclear weapons, and nuclear power plants too...

yummyfajitas 13y ago

This article is barely about Russia at all. It's mainly about wealth! privilege! inequality!, which is a perennial favorite topic of the NYT. You aren't expected to read this and thing "omfg, Russia is so bad". No one in the US is thinking this - all they are thinking is "omfg, if inequality keeps growing, the US will be like this". This is of course nonsense for various reasons (we don't have gypsies and therefore the bottom 50% will not adopt gypsy cultural indicators, and our inequality seems to be merely differing rates of positive growth). Note that many of the Americans on this thread are posting about Detroit, Appalachia and even Oakland (!?!?).

psn 13y ago
drive by comment: I don't know what you mean to imply by Oakland (!?!?), but... I took the amtrak south from Oakland, and I was shocked by the level of poverty thats visible from the train.
- crazytony 13y ago
  the problem is that living near the rail line* has been traditionally one of the least desirable places to live. I'm not hand-waving away the poverty or even it's ratios but you will see lots of poverty around a rail line. *there's a long, long history here going way, way back in the US. Living near a light rail or a commuter station is completely different than living near a freight rail/mixed use rail
rtpg 13y ago
> (we don't have gypsies and therefore the bottom 50% will not adopt gypsy cultural indicators, Am I misreading this or are you throwing the "gypsies are like this because of culture making them lazy" argument? > and our inequality seems to be merely differing rates of positive growth) Then why has median purchasing power gone down for the past fifteen years? It doesn't matter if the dollar value goes up when prices go up faster.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  Am I misreading this or are you throwing the "gypsies are like this because of culture making them lazy" argument? I'm more referring to child marriage than anything else. Then why has median purchasing power gone down for the past fifteen years? This begs the question - if purchasing power went down over the past 15 years, people should be purchasing fewer goods and services than in 1998. What goods/services do you believe people have less of now than they did in 1998?
  - phurley 13y ago
    Upper education, health care, healthy food? It is easy to ignore if you are not at the bottom, but all of these things are less available to a growing number of people.

arcadeparade 13y ago

Yes, this article is a disgrace. Putin has built a relatively successful and stable economy, which worst of all for the NYT is both pursuing an independent path and is rich in natural resources. If they weren't able to defend themselves Russia would fulfil all 3 of Chomskys criteria for Western Intervention, however they have a capable defence and cannot be "Iraq'd" or "Libya'd", so instead of missiles they have to settle for black propaganda instead.

vdaniuk 13y ago
I am a citizen of a country near Russia and have a rather good knowledge about Russia internal politics and economics. Black propaganda, you say? That's adorable.
- arcadeparade 13y ago
  Your comment adds nothing of value.
  - vdaniuk 13y ago
    It points out your biases in a humorous way while conveying information that I've first hand knowledge of the subject ;)
zavulon 13y ago
LOL @ 'relatively successful and stable economy'. Their economy is entirely based on selling off natural resources (sell 5%, steal 95% for yourself). When those resources run out, entire country will be bankrupt. Source: I'm from Russia and know what I'm talking about.
- arcadeparade 13y ago
  Relative to Yeltsins Russia that is a success. And far more stable.
  - 13y ago

paganel 13y ago

> What they did not tell you is that gypsy settlements look the same in France, Germany and other industrialized countries Exactly. I'm Romanian and when I saw the photo with the young gypsy couple I said to myself: "Hey! These people look exactly like the gipsies I used to grow up with". At least I learned that there are gipsies in Russia, also.

r0h1n 13y ago

How is it propaganda? Are any of the facts mentioned false? Is the author implying that all of Russia is like this? As a journalist I find it very surprising when people react to specific articles (often "negative" to their own beliefs) by imagining a grand conspiracy. There are numerous realities in every country and every company. A skilled journalist can tell any one of those in an interesting manner. But that doesn't imply there aren't other stories. For instance, the USA is currently (a) leading the "software disruption" war (b) shut down and about to default because of partisan politics (c) spying indiscriminately on almost everyone in the world (d) incarcerating the largest proportion of its citizens (e) meddling in the affairs of numerous countries (f) reshoring manufacturing that had been outsourced (g) saddled with a fighter jet program that is outrageously expensive and possibly average (h) trying to reform one of the most convoluted & corrupt healthcare systems in the world Which of these are reality? Which are propaganda?

grey-area 13y ago
Is the author implying that all of Russia is like this? I did find that to be the implication, yes. e.g. At the edges of Russia’s two great cities, another Russia begins. - this implies that only the two largest cities in Russia are first world, and another decaying world begins beyond the pale. Perhaps that's an accurate description, but given the treatment of stories like the NSA surveillance in the NYT (severely lacking, and often just parroting the government line without question), Iraq wars (again, severely lacking), and the lack of similar treatments of similar US problems with decaying infrastructure, I'm inclined to think that there are plenty of other stories about Russia to be told which don't paint it as a third world country in decline, and that this is a somewhat biased, limited portrait. I cancelled my subscription recently because of the limited coverage of world events - it's just too one-sided, but perhaps that's inevitable when you're reporting from within a superpower. Which of these are reality? Which are propaganda? Well, quite. We rely on journalists to sift through information and give us a balanced story based on their perception of the truth. That means we need journalists to step outside the view of the world that their country, culture and government gives them and try to see it afresh, without preconceptions. So we have to trust them to some extent, and when that trust is abused to present things through a distorted prism, it is disheartening. Still, this is quality journalism (particularly the mix of map/graphics/text), and perhaps to say it is propaganda is a bit harsh, I'm not sure I'd go that far, but I do find the lack of balance and parochial worldview of the NYT and US press disturbing at times. The temptation is to see the world through a US prism without taking into account other viewpoints. Sometimes the NYT get it right though - for example this article on healthcare comparing systems around the world: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/health/colonoscopies-explain-why-us-leads-the-world-in-health-expenditures.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/health/colonoscopies-expla...

zavulon 13y ago

It's not propaganda, it's the truth. I'm originally from Russia and it's like that, or much worse.

EugeneOZ 13y ago
I'm Russian too but I see there only dirty facts. I live in Saint Petersburg now, but I lived 27 years in 2 another cities, small towns. One if them is rich, without gipsies, full of green woods and with clean streets. So yes, Russia is not a best country, but this article is a pure propaganda. I like story "Vasily" on Vimeo - there less propaganda and more true.
- gtirloni 13y ago
  What cities in Russia would you currently consider decent for someone with a career in IT? Honest question.
  - MortenK 13y ago
    Moscow, Sct. Petersburg, Nizhniy Novgorod are the main hubs for Russian IT at the moment.

duaneb 13y ago

A) I was not aware the author was generalizing, and b) are you saying that the article only applies to gypsy settlements? What about the other topics?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

bgilroy26 13y ago

'The _____ left behind' is a phrase with a well established meaning. The poor parts of Eastern Kentucky, West Virginia, as are well as parts of the Ozarks are 'The America Left Behind'. Recently they have been seized upon by the artistic elite and made hip by music like Mumford and Sons and movies like The Hunger Games. The phrase means a subgroup that is not enjoying the prosperity that the rest of the group enjoys. To use the phrase, the author must believe the opposite of what you read.

Zigurd 13y ago

I agree this is propaganda, and it is dangerous. Despite the fact that bad roads and decaying villages are very real in Russia, Russia has tremendous oil and gas wealth, and the medium and long-term economic trends for Russia are upward. Russia has many symptoms of an industrial nation turning into a resource-extraction oligopoly, but it would be a very risky mistake to think Russia headed toward collapse. Russia may have many problems, but it will be a strong and rich nation. Allowing that fact to surprise us will lead to bad policy decisions.

anovikov 13y ago

As a Russian i know this is all true and much more than that. They never 'picked' gypsy settlement, it was one of the many places they visited. It was you DominikR who 'picked' the gypsy part out of the long article. Yes of course Roma are special. And they are nearly like that everywhere (possibly in places where they are living more permanently, like Romania, they are better off than in others, but more or less the same). This is part of Russian and European life. Native Americans are living about like that in the USA and nobody is trying to conceal that fact, or present things in a way that all of the USA is like that, neither does this article try to present all Russian to be gypsies and marry at 13. But looking at the article overally yes, this is how Russia actually lives. And, further away from large railways (railways, not highways, are the bloodlines of the economy in Russia, like in XIX century America) - and the places visited are closest to most important railway - things are much, much worse. In many places you will need AWD vehicle to move around, and even that possible only in dry summer, and find little more than rotten huts and peasants who look like zombies, and illiterate children who drink at the age of 10. These places were too scary to travel too (you can be killed just for wearing suit and tie and not looking like zombie), but THAT is also how about 20-30% of Russian live.