4 ms·

Mostly posted to highlight the response of the Ruby facebook admin. Who, while in a position of completely unofficial power, is still de facto representing part

Mostly posted to highlight the response of the Ruby facebook admin. Who, while in a position of completely unofficial power, is still de facto representing part of the Ruby community on the internet and whose comments are, quite frankly, part of the problem of misogyny in tech.

roarroar 13y ago
It is extremely dishonest of you to accuse this person of _hating women_ based upon his dislike of particular kinds of activism within the programming field.
- jacalata 13y ago
  Here's some more evidence for you, from his public facebook posts[0]: "Fuck women, they are coddled and have their needs met their entire lives so they never see past their own needs to empathize with others." [0]: https://www.facebook.com/aaron.a78/posts/635104079844426 https://www.facebook.com/aaron.a78/posts/635104079844426 [1]: imgur version for non-facebookers http://imgur.com/kKVmGKm http://imgur.com/kKVmGKm
  - roarroar 13y ago
    I guess I was wrong to give him the benefit of the doubt after all. Nonetheless his post from the OP makes a perfectly valid point.
- lambda 13y ago
  Misogyny is not necessarily hating women, but can also mean fearing, disliking, distrusting, and otherwise treating women as fundamentally different and inferior to men. Claiming that a man asking that people not be immature assholes means that "a progressive movement is being coopted by women who want to make it about their vagina" is pretty much a textbook example of misogyny. Claiming that software engineering is a "male space" (so, what, do that make the female software engineers I work with some kind of intruders on my "male space"?) is also a textbook example of misogyny. What is it going to take for you to accept that this guy is a misogynist? Actually physically harming women? There are a lot more ways to spread fear, distrust, and hatred than just physical harm.
  - roarroar 13y ago
    Sorry, misogyny means hating women. Perversion of language won't help you. Also, I don't care if the guy is a misogynist or not. There are plenty of hateful people in the world. I hate lots of people (women are nice though). What I do care about is the fact that his _post_ has had a label thrown on it to neutralise it when it contains a valid point. You've imbibed too much Kool-Aid, my friend.
    - lambda 13y ago
      Sorry, misogyny means hating women. Perversion of language won't help you. We don't speak ancient Greek. In modern English, misogyny means hatred, distrust, contempt towards women. Reacting to a post from a man asking "could we be more respectful and inclusive of others" with something about being "coopted by women who want to make it all about their vagina" definitely expresses a distrust and contempt towards women. Of course, you can always parse semantics apart and say "well, he didn't say all women". That's not the point; misogyny doesn't require that you qualify all hateful statements to include every woman in existence. But that quote, in response to a man asking if we could be nicer and more inclusive, definitely states a fairly contemptuous attitude towards women. when it contains a valid point It has no such valid point. No one is coming into the Ruby community, or the programming community, and trying to make it "all about their vagina". In fact, they're asking the opposite; that there's less emphasis placed on their vagina, and more on their code. And calling programming a "male space" is inherently exclusionary. He is dismissing in one fell swoop all of the women who do code, who are part of the community. Asking that people be nicer, and maybe consider the effect that gems named "rape_me" and "retarded" might not really reflect well on a community, with a defensive knee-jerk reaction about "politically correct thought-police safe spaces" is not a "valid point".
      - roarroar 13y ago
        Yes, and I'm sure where you come from "micro-aggressions" is a real word too. >And calling programming a "male space" is inherently exclusionary. No, it's a statement of fact. The US Marines is a male space. Oops, am I a bad little misogynist now? >Asking that people be nicer, and maybe consider the effect that gems named "rape_me" and "retarded" might not really reflect well on a community, with a defensive knee-jerk reaction about "politically correct thought-police safe spaces" is not a "valid point". Yes, it is. If it's invalid, then by all means invalidate it for me. >No one is coming into the Ruby community, or the programming community, and trying to make it "all about their vagina". In fact, they're asking the opposite; that there's less emphasis placed on their vagina, and more on their code. I don't hang out with Rubyists. I don't care about Ruby. It's a bad language, for a start. In the general programming field there are plenty of people spending lots of time trying to boost the status of women and institute PC memes. Do you deny this?
lucisferre 13y ago
Agreed based on that and some cursory reading of that group and Aaron's own public timeline he's doing us all an incredible disservice.
- pekk 13y ago
  And not representing many of us, let alone all of us.
jamesbritt 13y ago
Who, while in a position of completely unofficial power, is still de facto representing part of the Ruby community on the internet Perhaps people should be encouraged to stop assigning value to other people based on nothing more than their visibility. Maybe, instead, assign value to the content of their work, be it code, blog posts, presentations, etc. Someone who starts or runs a forum is just that. They are not a [thought|community|whatever] leader or spokesperson, however much they may think themselves so. This is just intellectual laziness. These people represent no one but themselves, and people should stop suggesting otherwise.

roarroar 13y ago

It is extremely dishonest of you to accuse this person of _hating women_ based upon his dislike of particular kinds of activism within the programming field.

jacalata 13y ago
Here's some more evidence for you, from his public facebook posts[0]: "Fuck women, they are coddled and have their needs met their entire lives so they never see past their own needs to empathize with others." [0]: https://www.facebook.com/aaron.a78/posts/635104079844426 https://www.facebook.com/aaron.a78/posts/635104079844426 [1]: imgur version for non-facebookers http://imgur.com/kKVmGKm http://imgur.com/kKVmGKm
- roarroar 13y ago
  I guess I was wrong to give him the benefit of the doubt after all. Nonetheless his post from the OP makes a perfectly valid point.
lambda 13y ago
Misogyny is not necessarily hating women, but can also mean fearing, disliking, distrusting, and otherwise treating women as fundamentally different and inferior to men. Claiming that a man asking that people not be immature assholes means that "a progressive movement is being coopted by women who want to make it about their vagina" is pretty much a textbook example of misogyny. Claiming that software engineering is a "male space" (so, what, do that make the female software engineers I work with some kind of intruders on my "male space"?) is also a textbook example of misogyny. What is it going to take for you to accept that this guy is a misogynist? Actually physically harming women? There are a lot more ways to spread fear, distrust, and hatred than just physical harm.
- roarroar 13y ago
  Sorry, misogyny means hating women. Perversion of language won't help you. Also, I don't care if the guy is a misogynist or not. There are plenty of hateful people in the world. I hate lots of people (women are nice though). What I do care about is the fact that his _post_ has had a label thrown on it to neutralise it when it contains a valid point. You've imbibed too much Kool-Aid, my friend.
  - lambda 13y ago
    Sorry, misogyny means hating women. Perversion of language won't help you. We don't speak ancient Greek. In modern English, misogyny means hatred, distrust, contempt towards women. Reacting to a post from a man asking "could we be more respectful and inclusive of others" with something about being "coopted by women who want to make it all about their vagina" definitely expresses a distrust and contempt towards women. Of course, you can always parse semantics apart and say "well, he didn't say all women". That's not the point; misogyny doesn't require that you qualify all hateful statements to include every woman in existence. But that quote, in response to a man asking if we could be nicer and more inclusive, definitely states a fairly contemptuous attitude towards women. when it contains a valid point It has no such valid point. No one is coming into the Ruby community, or the programming community, and trying to make it "all about their vagina". In fact, they're asking the opposite; that there's less emphasis placed on their vagina, and more on their code. And calling programming a "male space" is inherently exclusionary. He is dismissing in one fell swoop all of the women who do code, who are part of the community. Asking that people be nicer, and maybe consider the effect that gems named "rape_me" and "retarded" might not really reflect well on a community, with a defensive knee-jerk reaction about "politically correct thought-police safe spaces" is not a "valid point".
    - roarroar 13y ago
      Yes, and I'm sure where you come from "micro-aggressions" is a real word too. >And calling programming a "male space" is inherently exclusionary. No, it's a statement of fact. The US Marines is a male space. Oops, am I a bad little misogynist now? >Asking that people be nicer, and maybe consider the effect that gems named "rape_me" and "retarded" might not really reflect well on a community, with a defensive knee-jerk reaction about "politically correct thought-police safe spaces" is not a "valid point". Yes, it is. If it's invalid, then by all means invalidate it for me. >No one is coming into the Ruby community, or the programming community, and trying to make it "all about their vagina". In fact, they're asking the opposite; that there's less emphasis placed on their vagina, and more on their code. I don't hang out with Rubyists. I don't care about Ruby. It's a bad language, for a start. In the general programming field there are plenty of people spending lots of time trying to boost the status of women and institute PC memes. Do you deny this?

lucisferre 13y ago

Agreed based on that and some cursory reading of that group and Aaron's own public timeline he's doing us all an incredible disservice.

pekk 13y ago
And not representing many of us, let alone all of us.

jamesbritt 13y ago

Who, while in a position of completely unofficial power, is still de facto representing part of the Ruby community on the internet Perhaps people should be encouraged to stop assigning value to other people based on nothing more than their visibility. Maybe, instead, assign value to the content of their work, be it code, blog posts, presentations, etc. Someone who starts or runs a forum is just that. They are not a [thought|community|whatever] leader or spokesperson, however much they may think themselves so. This is just intellectual laziness. These people represent no one but themselves, and people should stop suggesting otherwise.