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I would prefer minimum service guarantees rather than maximum usage allowances. If I want to maximize my use of my connection, the only thing my ISP should do

I would prefer minimum service guarantees rather than maximum usage allowances. If I want to maximize my use of my connection, the only thing my ISP should do is reduce my throughput when someone else is trying to check their email, so that I do not get in their way. Other than that Internet connections should be a free-for-all. The real problem here is that ISPs are so grossly overselling their networks' capacities that they cannot provide any guarantee beyond dialup speeds unless people take turns. Rather than admit this, they try to assign blame to people who foolishly think that "Up to 20Mbps!!!" means "up to 20Mbps" when in fact the ISPs want it to mean "up to 20Mbps in occasional short bursts, and only for the things we think you should be doing." I am not asking for commercial-grade service. I am asking that my neighbors be able to stream videos while I am seeding Debian torrents. Nobody expects some kind of Internet-connection-utopia, but it is not wrong or unreasonable to expect to be allowed to use my Internet connection as I wish, particularly when I am paying more and receiving less than my overseas friends.

nemothekid 13y ago
Following the thread here, I think what you are asking for is unreasonable given the current infrastructure or massively unpopular. In the current environment what you are asking for is completely possible. Comcast will give you your speeds, but if they see you are seeding your debian torrents for too long, they will throttle your connection. Now they could advertise this, but we know how unpopular connection throttling is. However in a way, a connection throttle is your minimum service guarantee - your speed will never go below the throttle. Now I don't know anything about laying internet pipe, but lets say we gave everyone minimum service guarantees, how much do you think that would cost, and how much would you be willing to pay for a given speed? It may be completely possible that Comcast is fine with your seeding as long as you limit your speed to percentage of that number. This doesn't really refute your point, but given these two constraints its easy to see why ISPs may choose to go the "up to XMbps" route rather than the "minimum allowed route." Would it really change anything for you if you found out that your minimum service guarantee was 768kbps at your current price point?
- betterunix 13y ago
  "Now I don't know anything about laying internet pipe, but lets say we gave everyone minimum service guarantees, how much do you think that would cost, and how much would you be willing to pay for a given speed? It may be completely possible that Comcast is fine with your seeding as long as you limit your speed to percentage of that number." I think the cost of providing such a guarantee depends on the guarantee, and therein lies the problem. Right now, I suspect that a typical cable modem connection would only be able to guarantee dialup speeds, due to how massively oversold the bandwidth is. Of course, most people do not seed torrents or run web servers or whatever else on their home connection, and so we never see service so degraded. "Would it really change anything for you if you found out that your minimum service guarantee was 768kbps at your current price point?" Sure: I would have a much higher opinion of my ISP. Frankly, I would have a higher opinion if service classes were based on such minimum service levels rather than maximum levels: I would much rather pay for at least 768kbps than at most 20Mbps, particularly if "at least 768kbps" meant "at least 768kbps, and higher throughput when available."
lambda 13y ago
If you want minimum service guarantees, buy a dedicated line. They generally run somewhere around $2500 a month for symmetric 50 Mbps. If you don't want to pay that much, but you still do want the option of bursting to 50 Mbps (or more), shared bandwidth, like you get from your average residential plan, is your best bet. And I don't know about your experience, but more often than not, I do get the advertised speeds, at least when I'm connecting to servers that can support that sort of bandwidth. I mean, I agree with you in theory, it would be great to be able to get dedicated symmetric 100 Mbps for $80 a month; but it's just not economically feasible. And I agree that ISPs discriminating based on type of traffic (torrent vs VOIP vs HTTP, etc) is not good, but this whole thread is about Google changing from "you can't host servers" to "you can host servers but only for non-commercial purposes", which is, I think, a huge improvement and fairly reasonable given that commercial use tends to be very different than residential use and it doesn't make sense to treat them the same way.
- betterunix 13y ago
  It's not that I want a guarantee of 50Mbps. What I really want is for everyone to have a guarantee of, say, 768kbps, so that when I am sitting here seeding Debian torrents I do not have to worry that the old lady living next door will not be able to video chat with her grandchildren. I also find it somewhat difficult to accept the idea that no such guarantee will be made, yet I will still be punished if I reduce the quality of service for my neighbors -- either there is a guarantee, in which case I should be throttled in a way that ensures everyone enjoys at least that service level, or there is no guarantee in which case consuming lots of bandwidth is simply rude (but not something that should be punished). Frankly, I think this solution is not so bad: I get lower priority as I consume more bandwidth, until I am getting only the minimum throughput for my service class. Thus people can still get their burst speeds, and I can still seed torrents or run a web server or whatever else. My real point is that I do not see why people should be punished for using their connection continuously. Comcast did not offer me "burst service," they offered me "always on" service with "speeds up to X." I feel little sympathy for an ISP that massively oversold service and then claimed that it is abusive for customers to actually use what they are paying for.
  - 13y ago

nemothekid 13y ago

Following the thread here, I think what you are asking for is unreasonable given the current infrastructure or massively unpopular. In the current environment what you are asking for is completely possible. Comcast will give you your speeds, but if they see you are seeding your debian torrents for too long, they will throttle your connection. Now they could advertise this, but we know how unpopular connection throttling is. However in a way, a connection throttle is your minimum service guarantee - your speed will never go below the throttle. Now I don't know anything about laying internet pipe, but lets say we gave everyone minimum service guarantees, how much do you think that would cost, and how much would you be willing to pay for a given speed? It may be completely possible that Comcast is fine with your seeding as long as you limit your speed to percentage of that number. This doesn't really refute your point, but given these two constraints its easy to see why ISPs may choose to go the "up to XMbps" route rather than the "minimum allowed route." Would it really change anything for you if you found out that your minimum service guarantee was 768kbps at your current price point?

betterunix 13y ago
"Now I don't know anything about laying internet pipe, but lets say we gave everyone minimum service guarantees, how much do you think that would cost, and how much would you be willing to pay for a given speed? It may be completely possible that Comcast is fine with your seeding as long as you limit your speed to percentage of that number." I think the cost of providing such a guarantee depends on the guarantee, and therein lies the problem. Right now, I suspect that a typical cable modem connection would only be able to guarantee dialup speeds, due to how massively oversold the bandwidth is. Of course, most people do not seed torrents or run web servers or whatever else on their home connection, and so we never see service so degraded. "Would it really change anything for you if you found out that your minimum service guarantee was 768kbps at your current price point?" Sure: I would have a much higher opinion of my ISP. Frankly, I would have a higher opinion if service classes were based on such minimum service levels rather than maximum levels: I would much rather pay for at least 768kbps than at most 20Mbps, particularly if "at least 768kbps" meant "at least 768kbps, and higher throughput when available."

lambda 13y ago

If you want minimum service guarantees, buy a dedicated line. They generally run somewhere around $2500 a month for symmetric 50 Mbps. If you don't want to pay that much, but you still do want the option of bursting to 50 Mbps (or more), shared bandwidth, like you get from your average residential plan, is your best bet. And I don't know about your experience, but more often than not, I do get the advertised speeds, at least when I'm connecting to servers that can support that sort of bandwidth. I mean, I agree with you in theory, it would be great to be able to get dedicated symmetric 100 Mbps for $80 a month; but it's just not economically feasible. And I agree that ISPs discriminating based on type of traffic (torrent vs VOIP vs HTTP, etc) is not good, but this whole thread is about Google changing from "you can't host servers" to "you can host servers but only for non-commercial purposes", which is, I think, a huge improvement and fairly reasonable given that commercial use tends to be very different than residential use and it doesn't make sense to treat them the same way.

betterunix 13y ago
It's not that I want a guarantee of 50Mbps. What I really want is for everyone to have a guarantee of, say, 768kbps, so that when I am sitting here seeding Debian torrents I do not have to worry that the old lady living next door will not be able to video chat with her grandchildren. I also find it somewhat difficult to accept the idea that no such guarantee will be made, yet I will still be punished if I reduce the quality of service for my neighbors -- either there is a guarantee, in which case I should be throttled in a way that ensures everyone enjoys at least that service level, or there is no guarantee in which case consuming lots of bandwidth is simply rude (but not something that should be punished). Frankly, I think this solution is not so bad: I get lower priority as I consume more bandwidth, until I am getting only the minimum throughput for my service class. Thus people can still get their burst speeds, and I can still seed torrents or run a web server or whatever else. My real point is that I do not see why people should be punished for using their connection continuously. Comcast did not offer me "burst service," they offered me "always on" service with "speeds up to X." I feel little sympathy for an ISP that massively oversold service and then claimed that it is abusive for customers to actually use what they are paying for.
- 13y ago